I have an original MM that I bought in 2000. Rebuilt it then with a NOS playfield and many other NOS parts, ramps, etc. Since then I've added a shaker, colorDMD, the 3D translite and mirror side rails to it.

When it's properly tuned up, it plays TONS better than my friend's MMR that he bought NIB.

There is just something about the remakes that they just don't have the same feel, the same play that the originals do.

Find a nice original and play it yourself. It's a very fast, fluid game that's considerably easier to service than the remakes.

So let’s define original the!n

Is it the transistor board? My ST has killed that board twice now.

Don't think that is an issue anymore. I have a tricked out original and turned down an offer of 12k. It really depends on what ya got and who is lookin at it. There are people that will still pay stupid money for the right one.

Well said!

I haven't observed "OMG MM IS GONNA LOSE IT'S VALUE" phenomena either, which is why I ended up with an MMR instead of a MM, lol.

Did they go down a little? Maybe. Are they cheap now? Nope!

At the end of the day, the "best game ever" is gonna be in demand, that's just how it is.

The results of this thread: get either model and you’ll be really happy! It’s one of the best games ever made (new or old)!

If people would stop looking at the hobby as an "investment" maybe they will enjoy it more... nuff said

LTG

Lloyd, when the bigger display has been officially made for MMr, do you know if they will include them when/if they make another run of MMrs? Or will the bigger displays always be sold separately?

Oh my goodness, this is incredibly exciting. I was hoping they would come up with an upgrade kit for us MMr owners. Happy Friday!

You are making MY point for me.

Unlike the MMr MPU, we CAN easily reproduce the WPC-A12738 sound card (no impossible to copy PIC chips or ASIC), yet no one makes them.

So if there is not enough demand to reproduce a sound card that fits many thousands of machines, why would you think that anyone would reproduce an MPU that only fits one? (even if you could somehow crack the security chips, which no one has ever been able to do).

....and BTW, you can still get used MM sound boards, I have 2 in my shop right now.

+1
Original would be my choice, and is.

The “board set” arguement isn’t really relevant for two reasons... first of all most MMR games will go directly into home use and will never see the abuse that the old route machines did. Second, you’d hope that when they redesigned the boards for MMR they did so with the weaknesses of the originals in mind, and with the advances in technology and the use of heat and load reducing LED lighting that the new boards will just be more reliable and that repairable-ness won’t really be a factor.

Exactly. Get the one you can get, you won’t walk away unhappy.

Great points. And to supplement that here is a video from part of a 250 hour shake test of the MMr main LED board with no reported failures. It appears that CGC made them very robust which may explain why they’ve been so solid in the real world.

And if they eventually do fail for whatever reason, and if CGC went out of business, isn’t is more than likely that Rick would retain the license to have another manufacturer produce them since it is a joint venture? PPS, along with CGC, is listed on the cover of the manual that includes the schematics for the boards.

7B210B98-311C-4ED4-A5F8-A88051A7FC79 (resized).jpeg

Just played afm remake at pinfest. I also have afm le r in box at home. Haven’t had time to set up. All I can say is it didn’t feel like my restored original AFM.

Worse case scenario, that would be my guess.

CGC sends warranty parts, doesn't sell parts. PPS sells parts. So that seems to be already in place.

LTG : )

Depending on how they are used, Surface Mount components (SMT) can actually be very robust.

And that's a good thing, because that MMr SMT LED board is $300 !

Through-hole components are best used for high-reliability products that require stronger connections between layers. Whereas SMT components are secured only by solder on the surface of the board, through-hole component leads run through the board, allowing the components to withstand more environmental stress. This is why through-hole technology is commonly used in military and aerospace products that may experience extreme accelerations, collisions, or high temperatures<'blockquote>

http://blog.optimumdesign.com/through-hole-vs-surface-mount

Much of game RSD is based on the viability of the original design (or redesign in term of electronics of MMr or AFMr).
SMD for boards can be a reliable alternative, if augmented with through hole components in critical sections that require specific redundancy. Those PCBs that do not have it, are considered completely disposable in the industry today, as the time spent by technicians today for repair often does not offset pure replacement costs, if the technicians even have the skills to do the work.

No owner should be believe that a game will not have problems, as this is pinball, and the number one rule often broken.
Pinball as a whole has more potential for issues than many other types of amusements or vending, with the exception of some pieces of redemption equipment. Don't place your faith in a corner and cross fingers.

Being that I work on both the MM, MMr, AFM, AFMr, and still own an original MM since 2004 (when I finally decided to justify the purchase, and kept the game running ever since), I lean towards the WMS game for many reasons which I presented in the past, outside of the current potential near term problems on the WPC95 A/V Board.

People should consider how many original MMs come up for sale now. Playfields and parts can be replaced, if needed. Collectors already knew and brokers are now hard pressed to acquire them since the end of the reimport era in 2005. But, why does an potential owner really want the game, and how much are they willing to pay to get the example they want? I cannot answer these two questions.

I don't think any circuit board ever became damaged on route from abuse, lol

Boards become damaged because a component failed.

Transistors short out and burn the traces off the board.

Memory chips finally fail after too many cycles.

Electrolytic capacitors hit their 12 year lifespan.

Switching power supplies allow high voltages across the 5v rails.

-

Think of things you own that have burned out:

Your desktop/laptop PC is wiped out by a failed switching power supply.

Your flat screen TV does not turn on because the filter caps have failed.

Your camera memory card now formats to only 1/2 it's original size because the cells have worn/failed.

Your subwoofer only has a loud hum because the caps have leaked.

Your cell phone is caught in an endless bootloop.

None of these things failed because of abuse, they failed because that's what electronic components like to do.

If you want to split hairs you could swap the term “abuse” for just “use” I guess... however it would still be very extreme use compared to the life these MMRs are most likely gonna lead. The original MM games were/are commercial machinery. The MMRs are consumer machinery (maybe built to a commerical standard) so who knows if they’d survive 10 years in an arcade. But I’ll wager they’ll last damn near forever in normal home use.

I’m gonna go play my MMR now, watch it blow up on me, lol.

Better now than later

Looking for a A-20516 WPC95 Board and nobody makes them anymore, this could be a deal breaker for an original MM. Prices showed $700 when you could get it, am i correct on this?

so it's ok to have lower standards for longevity since it's only going to be used in the home and not commercially ... got it.

if you look at who is buying these things (where they wind up), it makes sense from that standpoint that manufactures are going away from "easy to repair" to "easy to replace". There aren't many pinball people that would dive into board repair.

sucks all the same though.

MMR upgrade.

31944573_10215915200222628_4450767384986255360_n (resized).jpg

31899370_10215915249183852_533417410401665024_n (resized).jpg

My properly tuned up MMR plays better than a MM that was bought NIB.

My properly tuned radio picks up more stations than one just out the the box too.

I’m not sure where you got that from, but okay.

I think I’ve said what I needed to say, I’ve had em both, I like them both, and I STILL don’t get peoples hard on for this board arguement, but (while there is basically no way to prove this) I do think if you turned on a brand new out of the box MM and a brand new MMR that the MMR would outlast the MM... and be harder to fix, lol.

I have owned originals of both ( actually 3 AFM ). One being undocumented HUO. But I still feel that the remakes are more dialed in and having NIB defiantly made my originals look dated.

That and the fact I sold them off before the remakes started being announced for $$$$

What game do you need it for?

Do you have the ROMs or do I have to burn them for you?

Several years? Is your friend from the future? This post needs to be downvoted by anyone regardless of preference. The facts just don't add up.

That is one sweet looking game.

Of course those OEM boards have not been made in almost 25 years.

Rotten Dog was making them for a while as aftermarket boards for $295

There is a certain guy in Australia that has real Williams OEM boards who says he is going to run another batch soon.

These boards are super easy to repair, so if yours goes down, just have it serviced by Rob.

guess what I meant to say, is to be concerned about longevity due to the nature of repairs on SMT since it's mainly going to be used by consumers.

I don't think we really need to be concerned about CGC anyway, because even if for whatever reason CGC does go bust they will still have PPS making parts for the games and vise versa. Plus I've had my MMR on location for 2 years before I rotated it, no board problems. Just a couple of broken pop bumper brackets. AFMR is living up to the same standard. They did a great job building these games, I'm not contesting that.

spooky is fine in my book, because they have pinball life and they are now using proc as a universal standard btwn games.
If both companies go bust then... but I feel better that there are 2 companies supporting parts and not just one.
Not sure about JJP yet since they don't really have a partner company, but they haven't made it difficult to get parts at all.

So that leaves one manufacture, I know if you try to get parts for some games that are 7 years old, you might have luck or might be SOL. Plus you need to go through a distro to check on the availability on anything, otherwise emails go unanswered. So the newer games are a bit concerning to me, especially since there are so many different revisions on the boards, no schematics & no compatibility chart. With 3-4 releases a year and sometimes different model boards between the tiers of games. That's an ass load of boards to keep up with. Is it going to stop me from getting them.... no , but I'm taking steps to be prepared for when parts aren't available.

anyway, that DMD looks really nice.

I miss the days when these threads were about which is the better Williams, MM or AFM.

Now it's more like what is better, an original Rolex or a fake reproduction Rolex.

Tough ol world. Better cash out while you can.

what a load of tosh d00d!

Rolex and nearly every watchmaker make the same watch with new movements....

3135 is one of the legendary Rolex movements launched in 1977, more recently 3155 and the 3156 are more current launched 2008, using improved technology and to tackle things that were not as well understood like magnetic fields etc. (of course real watch folks dont buy Rolex )

All we know is a MM is 20 years old and still works perfectly with a normal maintenance, boards are very reliable, never had any issue. MMr needs to prove itself.
Both have a great game so he can’t go wrong whatever his choice

Awesome! Any idea when these will be available?

I have had many machines, starting with older ones and machines I did a play field swap. I bought the MMr and it was a great decision. So Happy I bought AFMr and can not wait for the next machine. The game plays like the originals, feels like the original, sounds like the originals, but all better! And well built.

MMr all the way!

huh? I've had mine for two years, they started making them in 2015...

What I've heard is testing is done. Now figure out boxing, instructions, etc. etc. A couple months.

So soon I hope.

LTG : )

I picked up an MMr this weekend. Great game and well built.

I currently own an AFMLE and thinking about buying an MMr this year. However after playing MM for the first time today, I was really underwhemed. I need to play the remake before rendering a final verdict.

It’s the same game...if you didn’t like it you won’t like an MMr (unless the example you played was in poor shape).

I was also told MM and AFM are the same game.. To my household and myself they are different games.
Not quite sure on how they're the same..

Might have similar shots as do many machines but the games are completely different.

More about the rules. Hit similar shots so many times, hurry up and wizard mode are similar. I had both at the same time and I didn’t care though. Pinball is fun.....

Ah fair enough.
Well I think they're both awesome.