(Topic ID: 216065)

MM vs MMR


By snowvictim

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Riffbear
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There are 150 posts in this topic. You are on page 3 of 3.
#101 2 years ago

I have an original MM that I bought in 2000. Rebuilt it then with a NOS playfield and many other NOS parts, ramps, etc. Since then I've added a shaker, colorDMD, the 3D translite and mirror side rails to it.

When it's properly tuned up, it plays TONS better than my friend's MMR that he bought NIB.

There is just something about the remakes that they just don't have the same feel, the same play that the originals do.

Find a nice original and play it yourself. It's a very fast, fluid game that's considerably easier to service than the remakes.

#102 2 years ago

So let’s define original the!n

#103 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I have a faulty board on my Stern Star Trek that’s unique and a hundred bucks replacement!

Is it the transistor board? My ST has killed that board twice now.

#104 2 years ago
Quoted from manadams:

I'm sure most of it is people owning the original and not wanting to see it's value drop any further

Don't think that is an issue anymore. I have a tricked out original and turned down an offer of 12k. It really depends on what ya got and who is lookin at it. There are people that will still pay stupid money for the right one.

#105 2 years ago
Quoted from sulli10:

Comparing a 100K play machine to a 3 year old HUO is a no brainer from a purchasing point of view. Unless you want to cover the cost/time of a decent "overhaul", most will probably say MMR. I have the advantage of owning an original that has been in my house since 1999 or so. It was routed previously but for a 1997 machine and considering its condition not a lot of wear. The game, since I have owned, has been extremely low play and if not forbidden by my wife , I would have sold/traded when MM's could command 10K plus.
This is one game I have never really had any problems with. Not worried about board problems as I know they can be fixed. Not worried about 20 years from
now because it will continue to be low play and I am sure that I can always replace a cap, resistor or diode. The play field will look the same and any scrapes on the cabinet will be from me not age ( I can scrape up a new game as well as an old). I could improve the dots by adding an LCD color DMD and also add a after market shaker.
That being said, it comes down to game play. Not a great player or consider myself a B/W snob, but there does seem to be a difference to me. I prefer the feel of the original but if I did not own such a low play original,I could easily talk my self into a MMR for all the stated reasons.
Now, if I did have a MMR , I would probably sell/trade a lot faster then the original MM. That would only be due to the collector versus player in me.

Well said!

#106 2 years ago

I haven't observed "OMG MM IS GONNA LOSE IT'S VALUE" phenomena either, which is why I ended up with an MMR instead of a MM, lol.

Did they go down a little? Maybe. Are they cheap now? Nope!

At the end of the day, the "best game ever" is gonna be in demand, that's just how it is.

#107 2 years ago

The results of this thread: get either model and you’ll be really happy! It’s one of the best games ever made (new or old)!

#108 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

I haven't observed "OMG MM IS GONNA LOSE IT'S VALUE" phenomena either, which is why I ended up with an MMR instead of a MM, lol.

If people would stop looking at the hobby as an "investment" maybe they will enjoy it more... nuff said

#109 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

And the bigger display is coming. Like the one on AFMR SE and LE
LTG : )

ltg

Lloyd, when the bigger display has been officially made for MMr, do you know if they will include them when/if they make another run of MMrs? Or will the bigger displays always be sold separately?

#110 2 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

And the bigger display is coming. Like the one on AFMR SE and LE
LTG : )

Oh my goodness, this is incredibly exciting. I was hoping they would come up with an upgrade kit for us MMr owners. Happy Friday!

#111 2 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

Original sound boards for MM are impossible to find now.

You are making MY point for me.

Unlike the MMr MPU, we CAN easily reproduce the WPC-A12738 sound card (no impossible to copy PIC chips or ASIC), yet no one makes them.

So if there is not enough demand to reproduce a sound card that fits many thousands of machines, why would you think that anyone would reproduce an MPU that only fits one? (even if you could somehow crack the security chips, which no one has ever been able to do).

....and BTW, you can still get used MM sound boards, I have 2 in my shop right now.

#112 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

Original. Boards are repairable/replacable and battle-tested. More reliable too.

+1
Original would be my choice, and is.

#113 2 years ago

The “board set” arguement isn’t really relevant for two reasons... first of all most MMR games will go directly into home use and will never see the abuse that the old route machines did. Second, you’d hope that when they redesigned the boards for MMR they did so with the weaknesses of the originals in mind, and with the advances in technology and the use of heat and load reducing LED lighting that the new boards will just be more reliable and that repairable-ness won’t really be a factor.

Quoted from Pimp77:

The results of this thread: get either model and you’ll be really happy! It’s one of the best games ever made (new or old)!

Exactly. Get the one you can get, you won’t walk away unhappy.

#114 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

The “board set” arguement isn’t really relevant for two reasons... first of all most MMR games will go directly into home use and will never see the abuse that the old route machines did. Second, you’d hope that when they redesigned the boards for MMR they did so with the weaknesses of the originals in mind, and with the advances in technology and the use of heat and load reducing LED lighting that the new boards will just be more reliable and that repairable-ness won’t really be a factor.

Great points. And to supplement that here is a video from part of a 250 hour shake test of the MMr main LED board with no reported failures. It appears that CGC made them very robust which may explain why they’ve been so solid in the real world.

And if they eventually do fail for whatever reason, and if CGC went out of business, isn’t is more than likely that Rick would retain the license to have another manufacturer produce them since it is a joint venture? PPS, along with CGC, is listed on the cover of the manual that includes the schematics for the boards.

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#115 2 years ago

Just played afm remake at pinfest. I also have afm le r in box at home. Haven’t had time to set up. All I can say is it didn’t feel like my restored original AFM.

#116 2 years ago
Quoted from JJHLH:

isn’t is more than likely that Rick would retain the license to have another manufacturer produce them since it is a joint venture?

Worse case scenario, that would be my guess.

CGC sends warranty parts, doesn't sell parts. PPS sells parts. So that seems to be already in place.

LTG : )

#117 2 years ago
Quoted from JJHLH:

Great points. And to supplement that here is a video from part of a 250 hour shake test of the MMr main LED board with no reported failures. It appears that CGC made them very robust which may explain why they’ve been so solid in the real world.

Depending on how they are used, Surface Mount components (SMT) can actually be very robust.

And that's a good thing, because that MMr SMT LED board is $300 !

Through-hole components are best used for high-reliability products that require stronger connections between layers. Whereas SMT components are secured only by solder on the surface of the board, through-hole component leads run through the board, allowing the components to withstand more environmental stress. This is why through-hole technology is commonly used in military and aerospace products that may experience extreme accelerations, collisions, or high temperatures<'blockquote>

http://blog.optimumdesign.com/through-hole-vs-surface-mount

#118 2 years ago

Much of game RSD is based on the viability of the original design (or redesign in term of electronics of MMr or AFMr).
SMD for boards can be a reliable alternative, if augmented with through hole components in critical sections that require specific redundancy. Those PCBs that do not have it, are considered completely disposable in the industry today, as the time spent by technicians today for repair often does not offset pure replacement costs, if the technicians even have the skills to do the work.

No owner should be believe that a game will not have problems, as this is pinball, and the number one rule often broken.
Pinball as a whole has more potential for issues than many other types of amusements or vending, with the exception of some pieces of redemption equipment. Don't place your faith in a corner and cross fingers.

Being that I work on both the MM, MMr, AFM, AFMr, and still own an original MM since 2004 (when I finally decided to justify the purchase, and kept the game running ever since), I lean towards the WMS game for many reasons which I presented in the past, outside of the current potential near term problems on the WPC95 A/V Board.

People should consider how many original MMs come up for sale now. Playfields and parts can be replaced, if needed. Collectors already knew and brokers are now hard pressed to acquire them since the end of the reimport era in 2005. But, why does an potential owner really want the game, and how much are they willing to pay to get the example they want? I cannot answer these two questions.

#119 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

The “board set” arguement isn’t really relevant for two reasons... first of all most MMR games will go directly into home use and will never see the abuse that the old route machines did. Second, you’d hope that when they redesigned the boards for MMR they did so with the weaknesses of the originals in mind, and with the advances in technology and the use of heat and load reducing LED lighting that the new boards will just be more reliable and that repairable-ness won’t really be a factor.

My thoughts exactly. I was worried about the whole issue of replaceable parts having had to replace the MPU on my TOTAN for a Rottendog (works flawlessly after the replacement), but I would always rationalise this to myself by arguing that an NIB HUO game won't go through what my TOTAN (that stood in a bar for 7 years) went through. I can't really make an argument out of my TOTAN though since that game is a mystery to me (as mentioned, 7 years in a bar but has only a few scuffs here and there, playfield in an IMPECCABLE condition, no tarring anywhere under the playfield, barely any dust... I thought I was getting scammed when I bought it).

As of now I have 1 original and potentially 1 remake available (assuming the person who reserved the remake changes their mind). The price is pretty much the same, although I'm unable to assess the condition of the original from the photos. I emailed the bloke who's selling it for more pictures. If it's in good shape I'm tempted to go for it just cause I highly doubt that the person who reserved the remake will turn it down, but we'll see.

#120 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

The “board set” arguement isn’t really relevant for two reasons... first of all most MMR games will go directly into home use and will never see the abuse that the old route machines did.

I don't think any circuit board ever became damaged on route from abuse, lol

Boards become damaged because a component failed.

Transistors short out and burn the traces off the board.

Memory chips finally fail after too many cycles.

Electrolytic capacitors hit their 12 year lifespan.

Switching power supplies allow high voltages across the 5v rails.

-

Think of things you own that have burned out:

Your desktop/laptop PC is wiped out by a failed switching power supply.

Your flat screen TV does not turn on because the filter caps have failed.

Your camera memory card now formats to only 1/2 it's original size because the cells have worn/failed.

Your subwoofer only has a loud hum because the caps have leaked.

Your cell phone is caught in an endless bootloop.

None of these things failed because of abuse, they failed because that's what electronic components like to do.

#121 2 years ago

If you want to split hairs you could swap the term “abuse” for just “use” I guess... however it would still be very extreme use compared to the life these MMRs are most likely gonna lead. The original MM games were/are commercial machinery. The MMRs are consumer machinery (maybe built to a commerical standard) so who knows if they’d survive 10 years in an arcade. But I’ll wager they’ll last damn near forever in normal home use.

#122 2 years ago

I’m gonna go play my MMR now, watch it blow up on me, lol.

#123 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

I’m gonna go play my MMR now, watch it blow up on me, lol.

Better now than later

#124 2 years ago

Looking for a A-20516 WPC95 Board and nobody makes them anymore, this could be a deal breaker for an original MM. Prices showed $700 when you could get it, am i correct on this?

#125 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

however it would still be very extreme use compared to the life these MMRs are most likely gonna lead. The original MM games were/are commercial machinery. The MMRs are consumer machinery (maybe built to a commerical standard) so who knows if they’d survive 10 years in an arcade. But I’ll wager they’ll last damn near forever in normal home use.

so it's ok to have lower standards for longevity since it's only going to be used in the home and not commercially ... got it.

if you look at who is buying these things (where they wind up), it makes sense from that standpoint that manufactures are going away from "easy to repair" to "easy to replace". There aren't many pinball people that would dive into board repair.

sucks all the same though.

#126 2 years ago

MMR upgrade.

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#127 2 years ago

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#128 2 years ago
Quoted from GaryMartin:

When it's properly tuned up, it plays TONS better than my friend's MMR that he bought NIB.

My properly tuned up MMR plays better than a MM that was bought NIB.

My properly tuned radio picks up more stations than one just out the the box too.

#129 2 years ago
Quoted from hocuslocus:

so it's ok to have lower standards for longevity since it's only going to be used in the home and not commercially ... got it.
if you look at who is buying these things (where they wind up), it makes sense from that standpoint that manufactures are going away from "easy to repair" to "easy to replace". There aren't many pinball people that would dive into board repair.
sucks all the same though.

I’m not sure where you got that from, but okay.

I think I’ve said what I needed to say, I’ve had em both, I like them both, and I STILL don’t get peoples hard on for this board arguement, but (while there is basically no way to prove this) I do think if you turned on a brand new out of the box MM and a brand new MMR that the MMR would outlast the MM... and be harder to fix, lol.

#130 2 years ago
Quoted from chad:

I would prefer original as well. Played many of the refmakes and they play differently. Nothing like a nib experience I get that. Has anyone gone from original to refmake , then back to original?.

I have owned originals of both ( actually 3 AFM ). One being undocumented HUO. But I still feel that the remakes are more dialed in and having NIB defiantly made my originals look dated.

That and the fact I sold them off before the remakes started being announced for $$$$

#131 2 years ago
Quoted from pinbum:

Looking for a A-20516 WPC95 Board and nobody makes them anymore,

What game do you need it for?

Do you have the ROMs or do I have to burn them for you?

#132 2 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Got a friend who bought a NIB MMrLE had it for several years. Went through all the play field insert issues. He finally found a really nice low play original and picked it up for $1000 less than a NIB standard MMr. The original had lots of nice mods too Color DMD, Prosound, shaker ect... He got rid of the MMr.

Several years? Is your friend from the future? This post needs to be downvoted by anyone regardless of preference. The facts just don't add up.

#133 2 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

What game do you need it for?
Do you have the ROMs or do I have to burn them for you?

Vid it is a MM with a hacked Junkyard board with MM ROMS, i am looking for a good backup A-20516 board. Seems like no one makes this anymore, one on EBAY $999.00

#134 2 years ago

That is one sweet looking game.

#135 2 years ago
Quoted from pinbum:

Vid it is a MM with a hacked Junkyard board with MM ROMS, i am looking for a good backup A-20516 board. Seems like no one makes this anymore, one on EBAY $999.00

Of course those OEM boards have not been made in almost 25 years.

Rotten Dog was making them for a while as aftermarket boards for $295

There is a certain guy in Australia that has real Williams OEM boards who says he is going to run another batch soon.

These boards are super easy to repair, so if yours goes down, just have it serviced by Rob.

#136 2 years ago
Quoted from gunstarhero:

I’m not sure where you got that from, but okay.

Quoted from gunstarhero:

compared to the extreme use compared to the life these MMRs are most likely gonna lead. The original MM games were/are commercial machinery. The MMRs are consumer machinery (maybe built to a commerical standard) so who knows if they’d survive 10 years in an arcade. But I’ll wager they’ll last damn near forever in normal home use.

guess what I meant to say, is to be concerned about longevity due to the nature of repairs on SMT since it's mainly going to be used by consumers.

I don't think we really need to be concerned about CGC anyway, because even if for whatever reason CGC does go bust they will still have PPS making parts for the games and vise versa. Plus I've had my MMR on location for 2 years before I rotated it, no board problems. Just a couple of broken pop bumper brackets. AFMR is living up to the same standard. They did a great job building these games, I'm not contesting that.

spooky is fine in my book, because they have pinball life and they are now using proc as a universal standard btwn games.
If both companies go bust then... but I feel better that there are 2 companies supporting parts and not just one.
Not sure about JJP yet since they don't really have a partner company, but they haven't made it difficult to get parts at all.

So that leaves one manufacture, I know if you try to get parts for some games that are 7 years old, you might have luck or might be SOL. Plus you need to go through a distro to check on the availability on anything, otherwise emails go unanswered. So the newer games are a bit concerning to me, especially since there are so many different revisions on the boards, no schematics & no compatibility chart. With 3-4 releases a year and sometimes different model boards between the tiers of games. That's an ass load of boards to keep up with. Is it going to stop me from getting them.... no , but I'm taking steps to be prepared for when parts aren't available.

anyway, that DMD looks really nice.

-1
#137 2 years ago

I miss the days when these threads were about which is the better Williams, MM or AFM.

Now it's more like what is better, an original Rolex or a fake reproduction Rolex.

#138 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I miss the days when these threads were about which is the better Williams, MM or AFM.
Now it's more like what is better, an original Rolex or a fake reproduction Rolex.

Tough ol world. Better cash out while you can.

#139 2 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

I miss the days when these threads were about which is the better Williams, MM or AFM.
Now it's more like what is better, an original Rolex or a fake reproduction Rolex.

what a load of tosh d00d!

Rolex and nearly every watchmaker make the same watch with new movements....

3135 is one of the legendary Rolex movements launched in 1977, more recently 3155 and the 3156 are more current launched 2008, using improved technology and to tackle things that were not as well understood like magnetic fields etc. (of course real watch folks dont buy Rolex )

#140 2 years ago
Quoted from RTR:

In 20 years the original will be 40 years old. I would go MMr for sure, it will only be 20!
Disclosure - I own an MMr and love it. Only problem is the sound sucks, I mean really sucks. Has to be upgraded.

All we know is a MM is 20 years old and still works perfectly with a normal maintenance, boards are very reliable, never had any issue. MMr needs to prove itself.
Both have a great game so he can’t go wrong whatever his choice

#141 2 years ago

Awesome! Any idea when these will be available?

#142 2 years ago

I have had many machines, starting with older ones and machines I did a play field swap. I bought the MMr and it was a great decision. So Happy I bought AFMr and can not wait for the next machine. The game plays like the originals, feels like the original, sounds like the originals, but all better! And well built.

MMr all the way!

#143 2 years ago
Quoted from Scot0308:

Several years? Is your friend from the future? This post needs to be downvoted by anyone regardless of preference. The facts just don't add up.

huh? I've had mine for two years, they started making them in 2015...

#144 2 years ago
Quoted from parabol420:

Awesome! Any idea when these will be available?

What I've heard is testing is done. Now figure out boxing, instructions, etc. etc. A couple months.

So soon I hope.

LTG : )

#145 2 years ago

I picked up an MMr this weekend. Great game and well built.

#146 2 years ago

I currently own an AFMLE and thinking about buying an MMr this year. However after playing MM for the first time today, I was really underwhemed. I need to play the remake before rendering a final verdict.

#147 2 years ago
Quoted from Budman:

I currently own an AFMLE and thinking about buying an MMr this year. However after playing MM for the first time today, I was really underwhemed. I need to play the remake before rendering a final verdict.

It’s the same game...if you didn’t like it you won’t like an MMr (unless the example you played was in poor shape).

#148 2 years ago
Quoted from Pimp77:

It’s the same game...if you didn’t like it you won’t like an MMr (unless the example you played was in poor shape).

I was also told MM and AFM are the same game.. To my household and myself they are different games.
Not quite sure on how they're the same..

Might have similar shots as do many machines but the games are completely different.

#149 2 years ago
Quoted from Riffbear:

I was also told MM and AFM are the same game.. To my household and myself they are different games.
Not quite sure on how they're the same..
Might have similar shots as do many machines but the games are completely different.

More about the rules. Hit similar shots so many times, hurry up and wizard mode are similar. I had both at the same time and I didn’t care though. Pinball is fun.....

#150 2 years ago
Quoted from jints56:

More about the rules. Hit similar shots so many times, hurry up and wizard mode are similar. I had both at the same time and I didn’t care though. Pinball is fun.....

Ah fair enough.
Well I think they're both awesome.

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