(Topic ID: 125268)

MM vs. MMR - on which side do the Pinside Faithful line up?


By Lotr-Hobbit

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 123 posts
  • 65 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by snaroff
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#101 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

So will pinside have MM and MMR in their list of machines to rank? Will be a total mess to have MM and them MMR as number 2 and 3. I have this same argument for the Stern machines with multiple variations. Ruins the whole ranking thing for me.

Don't you mean MMr #1 and MM #2?

#102 4 years ago

Played both and prefer the Williams original ever so slightly.

#103 4 years ago

To me NIB is awesome

I prefer to play pinbal rather than collect it. I also like money so NIB is once again awesome

Both are cool tho!

Honestly I will prolly never buy either anyway tho

-1
#104 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

So will pinside have MM and MMR in their list of machines to rank? Will be a total mess to have MM and them MMR as number 2 and 3. I have this same argument for the Stern machines with multiple variations. Ruins the whole ranking thing for me.

To my knowledge we do not intend to have them ranked separately.

#105 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

So will pinside have MM and MMR in their list of machines to rank? Will be a total mess to have MM and them MMR as number 2 and 3. I have this same argument for the Stern machines with multiple variations. Ruins the whole ranking thing for me.

The rankings are already kind of screwed up. People vote up what they own and downvote other machines. Example TOM is ranked 9th. Beautiful machine, neat toys, boring as snot to play which is a common complaint for the title. Totan at 10 suffers from the same issue. Yet somehow these two are top ten machines...

Mind you, perfectly fine with a game being ranked highly that I do not care for. IJ at 8 for example. Mode start shot is a common complaint, but after that people tend to love it. Totan and Tom get dogged everytime they are discussed for the shallow rulesets.

#106 4 years ago
Quoted from dung:

The rankings are already kind of screwed up. People vote up what they own and downvote other machines.

I assumed rankings were for people that have never played the games they want to own.

#107 4 years ago

I would be on the MMR NIB side. ( I have one on order ). For me condition is king. I purchased a Tom that I was told was HUO and like new last year, not in my book. Then a month later chipped inserts. It is gone now, over rated game anyway.

#108 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

So will pinside have MM and MMR in their list of machines to rank? Will be a total mess to have MM and them MMR as number 2 and 3. I have this same argument for the Stern machines with multiple variations. Ruins the whole ranking thing for me.

Apparently it won't. I'm fine with that, since they play the same.

But I DO think MMR should have its own abbreviation and page and entry in the database. People on both sides will want to distinguish which one they have in their collections, and which one they are looking for when searching the forums for tech help, or tagging threads.

#109 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Almost every routed B/W game I've purchased had crispy GI connectors....hell, even HUO games did sometimes! Once you LED them, you don't really have to worry about that...but LEDs are a relatively new phenomenon. Ugh, and I've had reset issues out the wazoo! Whitewater's the most recent one to take the reset dump...glarghghgh!

My WH20 resets come and go. Pain in the butt, but it's the only pin I've ever owned with reset issues. I guess this board set is known for having reset issues.

#110 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

Apparently it won't. I'm fine with that, since they play the same.
But I DO think MMR should have its own abbreviation and page and entry in the database. People on both sides will want to distinguish which one they have in their collections, and which one they are looking for when searching the forums for tech help, or tagging threads.

A rare instance where I agree with you. They are 2 different games, with different operating systems, built by different companies. Regardless of which one someone deems as "better" they really do need their own category. This should be standard when more of the remakes come out (AFM, Etc.).

The fact that folks are already referring to the new one as MMR is proof there should be separate tracking.

#111 4 years ago

It'll certainly matter for marketplace. The guts are very materially different. We just don't yet know wether for better or worse.

#112 4 years ago
Quoted from viper001:

A rare instance where I agree with you. They are 2 different games, with different operating systems, built by different companies. Regardless of which one someone deems as "better" they really do need their own category. This should be standard when more of the remakes come out (AFM, Etc.).
The fact that folks are already referring to the new one as MMR is proof there should be separate tracking.

Don't mind having it listed separate, I just question whether or not it should be able to be voted separately. It's the SAME game!

#113 4 years ago
Quoted from alexanr1:

Don't mind having it listed separate, I just question whether or not it should be able to be voted separately. It's the SAME game!

I don't think you're disagreeing with anyone. It plays the same, so lumping them together in the rankings makes sense, but if you're looking for parts or tech support or specifying what games are in your collection or what game you want to buy or sell, being able to make the distinction between remake and original in search queries and abbreviations and info pages is a necessary feature in my opinion.

#114 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

I don't think you're disagreeing with anyone. It plays the same, so lumping them together in the rankings makes sense, but if you're looking for parts or tech support or specifying what games are in your collection or what game you want to buy or sell, being able to make the distinction between remake and original in search queries and abbreviations and info pages is a necessary feature in my opinion.

Probably a Pinside feature request.

#115 4 years ago

I dig the remake because it brought the original down to a more affordable price for those that prefer it. Took one for the team with my MMR purchase. Pinball for all!

#116 4 years ago

When Rick announced MMR I was actually looking for an MM.
Since the MMR was NIB with clearcoat PF, shaker and factory LED's and 30% less than I could buy an MM here then it was a no brainer for me.

I won't be selling it so I am not worried if MMR goes down in price once they are all delivered. Time will tell on that.

#117 4 years ago

Both MM and MMR look the same to me.
It's a fun game and hope to have either one someday.

#118 4 years ago

I usually avoid these conversations, but an argument that keeps coming up makes me curious...

Everyone keeps saying that the original MM will retain more value due to collectors. Who are these collectors? Almost everyone I know into pinball is more of a player than collector, otherwise TAF should be the cheapest DMD game and Mystery Castle should be worth like triple what it is.

Almost everyone "collects" pinball to play them, but I rarely see posts of "hey, I just finished my WPC-95 collection!"

I think price will eventually sort itself out. I do feel the originals will retain slightly more value, but that is more due to the options (like lighting) that they give.

#119 4 years ago

They play the same and that is cool, but I would not drop cash on a pin I couldn't upgrade/customize the LEDs on.

#120 4 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I usually avoid these conversations, but an argument that keeps coming up makes me curious...
Everyone keeps saying that the original MM will retain more value due to collectors. Who are these collectors? Almost everyone I know into pinball is more of a player than collector, otherwise TAF should be the cheapest DMD game and Mystery Castle should be worth like triple what it is.
Almost everyone "collects" pinball to play them, but I rarely see posts of "hey, I just finished my WPC-95 collection!"
I think price will eventually sort itself out. I do feel the originals will retain slightly more value, but that is more due to the options (like lighting) that they give.

There are plenty of pin collectors out there who rarely play their games but still want "perfect" examples or close to it, and as original as possible. These are often not the kind of people who are going to join and post in a pinball forum though, nor are they going to really make pinball a priority in their lives. I find that these are usually very busy people (business owners, upper mgmt, etc.) that just like having the pins around when they're home. Their money, they have plenty of it, they can spend it however they like.

Back on topic though...MM vs MMR, if you're just going to play it, who cares? They pretty much play the same.

Long term reliability and value? Well they pretty much go hand in hand. WPC95 is a proven board set with 20 years of service life (most of that commercial) and very little issues. Burnt GI connectors from machines being on all the time, yes, and even burnt diodes before they revised the design a few years into the run. But other than that (easily remedied and now basically eliminated with LEDs), very reliable. As for MMR, well, CGC supporting anything they've made beyond a few years after production would be a first. So time will tell.

#121 4 years ago
Quoted from ReplayRyan:

There are plenty of pin collectors out there who rarely play their games but still want "perfect" examples or close to it, and as original as possible. These are often not the kind of people who are going to join and post in a pinball forum though, nor are they going to really make pinball a priority in their lives. I find that these are usually very busy people (business owners, upper mgmt, etc.) that just like having the pins around when they're home. Their money, they have plenty of it, they can spend it however they like.

While I don't deny you any of this, I know a few of those people and they are big into buying brand new games. I would assume a NIB MMR would be actually the more desirable machine for these types of "collectors."

#122 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Unless you are Pimp77. Somehow he is immune.

I guess I'm immune as well then.

I've never had a board issue or a reset issue on any B/W pin that I've owned. I should note, though, that a WCS that I sold to a friend did start suffering a reset issue almost as soon as he bought it.

I did just buy a HUO Judge Dredd and I need a replacement cpu board, but that's because the batteries had expired in 2005 and leaked onto the board, causing acid damage.

I've also owned MM, SS, DM, TZ, CV, TAF, AFM, MB, Wh20, W?D, ToM, BSD, TS, NGG, RS, SC, JM, and I500 and other than having to reflow the solder on a couple boards where a light or two stopped working, I've never had any board problems or reset issues.

So I don't really understand being in total shock that someone may not have had board issues on a B/W pin, or to infer that someone isn't telling the truth when they say that they haven't.

#123 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I guess I'm immune as well then.
I've never had a board issue or a reset issue on any B/W pin that I've owned. I should note, though, that a WCS that I sold to a friend did start suffering a reset issue almost as soon as he bought it.
I did just buy a HUO Judge Dredd and I need a replacement cpu board, but that's because the batteries had expired in 2005 and leaked onto the board, causing acid damage.
I've also owned MM, SS, DM, TZ, CV, TAF, AFM, MB, Wh20, W?D, ToM, BSD, TS, NGG, RS, SC, JM, and I500 and other than having to reflow the solder on a couple boards where a light or two stopped working, I've never had any board problems or reset issues.
So I don't really understand being in total shock that someone may not have had board issues on a B/W pin, or to infer that someone isn't telling the truth when they say that they haven't.

My experience as well. I've said this in many threads...my NIB Sterns have had just as many issues as my B/W pins. Sure, I typically buy higher-end B/W examples, but this notion that NIB == perfection hasn't been my reality. From my perspective, the best predictor of quality is knowing your seller. If you buy from someone who enjoys playing/maintaining/tweaking, chances are you are getting a reliable pin.

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