(Topic ID: 125268)

MM vs. MMR - on which side do the Pinside Faithful line up?


By Lotr-Hobbit

4 years ago



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  • 123 posts
  • 65 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by snaroff
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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-38
#1 4 years ago

This could be one of the most fundamental issues of all time for Pinsiders......where do you line up with a brand new, new processor, new playfield Stern(blasphemy?) MMR vs. an almost 20 year old original MM? This is a valuable and very revealing debate. Could a manufacturer make a living just buying licenses and building VE's? What is the legacy and /or collector value of an old game that no longer has a limited number of copies? Does a beautiful, NIB Stern game trump an old Midway game? Which side are you on?

#2 4 years ago

Sir put your flame suit on asap. Its gonna get hot in here.

21
#3 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

new playfield Stern(blasphemy?)

It isn't a Stern playfield.

Churchill made playfields and cabinets for Williams, became Chicago Gaming Company, who makes playfields and cabinets for Stern and now for themselves and PPS.

Stern is just assembling all the pieces CGC hauls over there.

LTG : )

-13
#4 4 years ago

Ok. Point made. It is still being assembled by Stern.

26
#5 4 years ago

I line up on couldn't care less. I'll play whichever one is available, I've played them both. Same game.

The ephemeral differences don't mean much to me, unless they can't color the screen, that would suck. ColorDMD is awesome.

#6 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Ok. Point made. It is still being assembled by Stern.

And? Monster Bash decals were made by scabs, does it matter?

11
#7 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

It is still being assembled by Stern.

Which is good. Stern games are better coming out of the box than Williams games were.

LTG : )

#8 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Ok. Point made. It is still being assembled by Stern.

It doesn't matter if it gets assembled by Stern, or boyscouts, or Nepalese mountain men. If it's assembled properly. Assuming it is, then the focus should only be on the quality of the design & engineering of the components that make up the assembled game.

#9 4 years ago

Whatever makes the owner happy.

-20
#10 4 years ago

Complex issue......how do you weight the value of the designer and the artist vs. the value of the manufacturer? Does Stern building the new game diminish its value? Are new Williams/Bally wires, LED's, screws, bolts, and solenoids superior to the Stern products? More importantly, how will the community price a NIB MMR vs. a nice, but almost 2 decades old MM?

#11 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Complex issue......how do you weight the value of the designer and the artist vs. the value of the manufacturer? Does Stern building the new game diminish its value? Are new Williams/Bally wires, LED's, screws, bolts, and solenoids superior to the Stern products? More importantly, how will the community price a NIB MMR vs. a nice, but almost 2 decades old MM?

Not to poo-poo your thread but all of these points have been scrutinized, ad nauseam, in countless threads that currently exist in the annals of Pinside.

#12 4 years ago

yawn

-13
#13 4 years ago

Regarding the color DMD being awesome, wouldn't a color LED be even more awesome?

14
#14 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Complex issue......how do you weight the value of the designer and the artist vs. the value of the manufacturer? Does Stern building the new game diminish its value? Are new Williams/Bally wires, LED's, screws, bolts, and solenoids superior to the Stern products? More importantly, how will the community price a NIB MMR vs. a nice, but almost 2 decades old MM?

Kaneda?

#15 4 years ago

Wouldn't look as good without some LED action.

#16 4 years ago

both? I play pinball, not sides.

#17 4 years ago
#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Complex issue......how do you weight the value of the designer and the artist vs. the value of the manufacturer? Does Stern building the new game diminish its value? Are new Williams/Bally wires, LED's, screws, bolts, and solenoids superior to the Stern products? More importantly, how will the community price a NIB MMR vs. a nice, but almost 2 decades old MM?

To be clear, Stern isn't manufacturing anything, just assembling. Not that Stern is bad anyway!

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Which side are you on?

Neither. I'm on the outside looking in.

#20 4 years ago
Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Complex issue......how do you weight the value of the designer and the artist vs. the value of the manufacturer? Does Stern building the new game diminish its value? Are new Williams/Bally wires, LED's, screws, bolts, and solenoids superior to the Stern products? More importantly, how will the community price a NIB MMR vs. a nice, but almost 2 decades old MM?

It's not using any Stern parts. Literally zero.

The community doesn't have to price NIB MMr. It's a new game. Distributors price it.

Quoted from Lotr-Hobbit:

Regarding the color DMD being awesome, wouldn't a color LED be even more awesome?

MMr comes with a color LCD monitor...if that's what you mean...is that what you mean? I don't know why I'm bothering...it's pretty unclear what the whole point of your posts are. Everything you've said so far is pretty ridiculous.

#21 4 years ago

To be the first to answer your question, i line up with the B/W one.

#22 4 years ago

I'm going to line up on the side of the original with a ColorDMD because I own a very nice one.

The vast majority of people aren't going to care one way or the other - when it comes to game play, they art close enough to be indistinguishable from each other and, in the grand scheme of things, that's all that matters.

#23 4 years ago

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#24 4 years ago

I think what remakes will offer is availability. The majority of people that collect pins would choose to own the original. But when the originals cost 4-5k or more than a NIB then you really have to ask yourself... is it worth it? I think for those that truely love MM it doesn't really matter. All that matters at this point is collectors have options and that's a good thing. I think for some its a no-brainer they can own a pin they've always dreamed of owning that plays identical to the original for a lot less money. It really comes down to personal preference. I know two other people that will probably end up getting the MMR later down the road in hopes of the price slightly dropping on the remakes after a few years. Hell, I wouldn't even own one if it weren't for being in the right place at the right time. If I had not picked up a MM back then I would be considering the remake no doubt.

#25 4 years ago

What advantage does the MM?

.- The originality? yes.

Everything else are disadvantages, in the same price i dont have any doubt, i'd buy the MMR.

pd. sorry for my english...

#26 4 years ago

Why don't you add a poll and see how many truly share your opinion?

#27 4 years ago

Most of the originals were routed heavily. To me it is a choice between a nice, reliable new game or a 17 year old game. Not to mention all the technology advances. I will take the MMR every time for my money.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from nonik:

What advantage does the MM?
.- The originality? yes.
Everything else are disadvantages, in the same price i dont have any doubt, i'd buy the MMR.
pd. sorry for my english...

Originality and... I sure do like the color dmd on my original, also the ability to customize my LED's lastly the original harware has been proven reliable over the last 17 years. Time will tell if the new system will stand the test of time.

Just my .02 cents

#29 4 years ago

original restored to new with color dmd. that is where i stand

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Originality and... I sure do like the color dmd on my original, also the ability to customize my LED's lastly the original harware has been proven reliable over the last 17 years. Time will tell if the new system will stand the test of time.
Just my .02 cents

I own an original and can't wait till my friends all get their MMRs up here in Canada. I debated getting an MMR when it was first announced and the price difference between that and the nice HUO MM I picked up was around $2500. I'm glad I went this route because our CDN dollar has been tanking since then and right now I would say I am less then $1000 difference. Also instead of following the daily banter like no coin mechs, no williams logo, incorrectly applied decals, etc... for the past year I've been enjoying mine.

The main advantage to me of having an original vs new is there is a wealth of knowledge online for WPC95 repairs, troubleshooting and worse case Rottendog replacement boards. Since I own a few other WPC95 titles it is also handy for me to be able to swap boards around to try and isolate any problems too. The new boards in MMR still have to be put through the "final test" in the hands of collectors in terms of reliability and serviceability. I'm sure it will be fine in the long run as more MMRs are sold and other remakes get released too using the same system. I think it is great that we have an option of buying an older routed MM for a more reasonable price now and restore it the way you like or if you want plug and play just buy a MMR. To think a few years ago I almost pulled the trigger on a container beat to hell MM for $9300cdn.

#31 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

Most of the originals were routed heavily. To me it is a choice between a nice, reliable new game or a 17 year old game. Not to mention all the technology advances. I will take the MMR every time for my money.

what are you basing reliable on? The originals have 18 years of proven reliability and are built on a system with more time than that. The new ones have zero track record. Get back to me on reliability in 18 years. Newer tech is not inherently better, in fact its generally cheaper, faster and more disposable. Nothing against the remake, I'm hoping to get a remake in the future when they make something I want. But the "knowledge" that the unproven remake is better is silly.

-1
#32 4 years ago

New is always better! It's an exact remake; unless you had the chance to buy the original one NIB of course.

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from pninja005:

New is always better! It's an exact remake; unless you had the chance to buy the original one NIB of course.

Absolutely incorrect.

#34 4 years ago

Drain

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#35 4 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

what are you basing reliable on? The originals have 18 years of proven reliability and are built on a system with more time than that. The new ones have zero track record. Get back to me on reliability in 18 years. Newer tech is not inherently better, in fact its generally cheaper, faster and more disposable. Nothing against the remake, I'm hoping to get a remake in the future when they make something I want. But the "knowledge" that the unproven remake is better is silly.

I totally agree. WOZ is a great example of a new/modern platform that was suppose to offer reliability benefits. Experience has shown it is far from error free. Not trying to derail the discussion, but new platforms need a shakeout period. A year from now, we will have real data on MMR reliability. Since pinball reliability is a huge issue for both operators and home consumers, I hope the MMR platform delivers!

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from pninja005:

New is always better! It's an exact remake;

Um...no it's not!

#37 4 years ago

I'll always go for a minty original as most will but won't admit.
I'm sure no one would trade an original BBB for my IP BBB as I would never trade my mint, almost perfect MM for a MMR.

#38 4 years ago

HEP, Kelly and the like would be my first choice.

Since I don't believe you would be able to acquire one of their creations for 8K, I would opt for the MMR.

#39 4 years ago

I love the game but I don't think either are worth the going rate. I'd buy the first one I could get for 6K.

#40 4 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

HEP, Kelly and the like would be my first choice.
Since I don't believe you would be able to acquire one of their creations for 8K, I would opt for the MMR.

And that's the big rub for the future of remakes. How many pins will people pay 8k+ for? Remakes @ 4-5k would be awesome, but it's highly unlikely that this is possible given the low numbers and high BOM.

#41 4 years ago

I like the ability to change LEDs and playfield lighting as I want, so I like the old MM's light sockets. I also like the old style boardsets, as I can easily fix any issues that develop, or I know someone else who can. I also like the ability to use a P-ROC with the old MM if I or someone wanted to mess with it and expand or modify the program, so I have no problem sticking with my original MM, and that is my preference.

When this remake was announced, I was gung-ho to see a CC remake, but now.. not so much. I'd want to be able to use whatever lights I wanted, and I'd also want to be able to use it with a P-ROC so I could run CCC, and it looks like I won't ever be able to do that with a CC remake, so I don't really care about the CC remake anymore. No matter how good the original CC code was invisioned to be, before the plug got pulled, there's no way I can see it stacking up against Ep's CCC, which he continues to refine to this day.

#42 4 years ago
Quoted from calvin12:

But the "knowledge" that the unproven remake is better is silly.

My knowledge of the WPC95 system is that it is not exactly reliable. I had tons of trouble with my MM. Fortunately I am good at electronics repair or it would have been constantly in the shop. Sure it is all a crap shoot, but I stand by my statement that the average MMr will be more reliable than the average MM in home use.

No doubt both systems have their benefits, and it is a close call. If you are going to give me one or the other then I will be glad to take either. If I am buying it with my own money then I am taking one NIB.

#43 4 years ago

The originals are not *reliable*. That isn't to say they are bad, but old electronics with known defects. The advantage is 20 years of use means we know what the defects are. There are thousands and thousands of wpc95 games with millions of hours of use. That collective knowledge is very useful.

That being said I was thinking of this earlier this morning. MMR vs MM. Fact is, I don't care enough to pick one over the other. I'd prefer an original, but at 8k for a beated router vs a new game? No. 7k vs a routed one vs new? No. Let's say 8k gets me a nice original. Still doesn't compare to a new machine.

I think the prices are going to take time to sort themselves out. The MMR will drop a bit over the next few years like any other NIB game. *Collectors* will want originality, but players will want the best bang for their buck. Just gonna sit back and eat popcorn while it unfolds.

#44 4 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

My knowledge of the WPC95 system is that it is not exactly reliable. I had tons of trouble with my MM. Fortunately I am good at electronics repair or it would have been constantly in the shop. Sure it is all a crap shoot, but I stand by my statement that the average MMr will be more reliable than the average MM in home use.
No doubt both systems have their benefits, and it is a close call. If you are going to give me one or the other then I will be glad to take either. If I am buying it with my own money then I am taking one NIB.

Really I have owned 5 MM's in the last 14 years and not one of them had any electronic "trouble" the system is pretty damned reliable IMHO

#45 4 years ago
Quoted from Rum-Z:

I like the ability to change LEDs and playfield lighting as I want, so I like the old MM's light sockets.

As someone who just opened their MMr last nite - I can verify that all the playfield GI sockets are 44's so you could customize the GI. Inserts look stellar and behave like incandescent bulbs with perfect fade.

#46 4 years ago

why a match MM vs MMR? what's the aim?

MMR only makes new happy owner coz very few MM are on the market.

#47 4 years ago

I dig MM and MMR

#48 4 years ago

MMR - lower cost & NIB!

#49 4 years ago

I have a MMr on order.

So...my choice is a NIB over a heavily routed 17 year old machine.

#50 4 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

Really I have owned 5 MM's in the last 14 years and not one of them had any electronic "trouble" the system is pretty damned reliable IMHO

I believe I've owned every type of hardware from the 90's and up except Alvin G and Spike. Had problems with all of them. Nature of the beast. The notion that you've had 5 machines in 14 years and never once had an electronic issue seems like a fluke.

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