(Topic ID: 67194)

MM remake makes me rethink purchases!!!

By sepins

10 years ago


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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by rosh
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#1 10 years ago

Was trying to buy a restored AFM and working with 2 sellers recently and now decided to wait.

Was thinking of trading my CQ TZ and cash for an upgraded ToTAN and now think TZ won't ever be reproduced but ToTAN might??? Think TZ has too many toys and would be expensive to reproduce.

I have a sample MM but still preordered MMLE. I'll bet a lot of people preordered that currently own MM's???

I am one of those guys that hates older Wms/Bally board issues!

-40
#2 10 years ago

I'm sorry but this thread is just ridiculous. Please think before you post.

#3 10 years ago

He is thinking out loud. Why is it not to your liking?

#4 10 years ago

Actually, he's about right.

I'd say AFM is the next machine to be reproduced. Simply because it's so sparse in terms of hardware (easier to reproduce).

TZ is the safer bet to hold on to. Lots of them were made, the licensing, and the complexity of the playfield are all reasons it would be much further down the list for a repro.

#5 10 years ago

rockotaco1 - Are you kidding? This thread is NOT ridiculous at all with PPS beginning to reproduce pins. PPS will make a ton of money with MMR, because of no costs for development and guaranteed buyers. Of course they will walk down the line and remake others - why not?

Anybody considering purchasing a high priced AFM, CV, Totan or other non-licensed Bally Williams will be thinking "What if PPS remakes this one next?".

Also, the rumor was originally PPS is going to remake MM and AFM. AFM is the next to be done for sure - no license and one of the cheapest games to make as toys are very sparse on AFM.

#6 10 years ago
Quoted from sepins:

Was trying to buy a restored AFM and working with 2 sellers recently and now decided to wait.
Was thinking of trading my CQ TZ and cash for an upgraded ToTAN and now think TZ won't ever be reproduced but ToTAN might??? Think TZ has too many toys and would be expensive to reproduce.
I have a sample MM but still preordered MMLE. I'll bet a lot of people preordered that currently own MM's???
I am one of those guys that hates older Wms/Bally board issues!

Sounds about right. Totan is an interesting case though because you can get a super nice original for under $8000.

#7 10 years ago
Quoted from rockotaco1:

I'm sorry but this thread is just ridiculous. Please think before you post.

I agree with OP. We could all use a break from pinflation. Even just for a little while.

#8 10 years ago

I'm not buying anything pinball wise till I see the MM's quality, look & feel. I'm a current MM owner that likes all original NOS parts in my arcade games, but there is nothing to compare in the arcade realm like this. There has never been any direct repro games like this before. I'm a buyer if they make AFM and it's as good as the 90's version. Either way it's exciting times again in pinball.

#9 10 years ago

An injection of more affordable pins will go a long way to introducing new blood to this hobby.

#10 10 years ago
Quoted from rockotaco1:

I'm sorry but this thread is just ridiculous. Please think before you post.

You need to follow your own advice. This is an interesting thread to me.

#11 10 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

An injection of more affordable pins will go a long way to introducing new blood to this hobby.

I think it will just shift money away from the top 5 (ish) most expensive games UNLESS they start making them quicker and cheaper. Unfortunately, that will be a huge blow to new pinball progress, possibly the death of pinball.

1 week later
#12 10 years ago
Quoted from davewtf:

I think it will just shift money away from the top 5 (ish) most expensive games UNLESS they start making them quicker and cheaper. Unfortunately, that will be a huge blow to new pinball progress, possibly the death of pinball.

Can't picture used pins going slightly down in price point affecting 8k new pins. But, decrease in new pin prices can have direct impact on older pin prices.

#13 10 years ago
Quoted from sepins:

Was trying to buy a restored AFM and working with 2 sellers recently and now decided to wait.
Was thinking of trading my CQ TZ and cash for an upgraded ToTAN and now think TZ won't ever be reproduced but ToTAN might??? Think TZ has too many toys and would be expensive to reproduce.
I have a sample MM but still preordered MMLE. I'll bet a lot of people preordered that currently own MM's???
I am one of those guys that hates older Wms/Bally board issues!

TOTAN was never that popular... even back in the day when it was released. I can't imagine more than a couple hundred collectors willing to pay 8k for it considering it's gameplay issues (no pop action, only a single ramp shot, exposed hole that gets worn quick, etc)

Heck even the announcer sounds bored at the beginning of the game Pretty artwork but that's about it (IMHO)
and I usually like JP games.

So I doubt if that one is even in consideration. AFM maybe...

#14 10 years ago
Quoted from T7:

rockotaco1 - Are you kidding? PPS will make a ton of money with MMR, because of no costs for development and guaranteed buyers.

How many times have poeple posted there are no development costs are they that dumb? no development costs, do you think the new boardset just magically appeared? The logistical costs, LED lighting development costs, assembly line development costs. new display tech costs, code adaptation/ emulation costs, and the costs of reproducing the art. The only costs they don't have is the cost of the original artists and mechanical designers.

#15 10 years ago

Licensed titles that have estates attached to them like Twilight Zone, Adams Family will most likely never be made due to licensing issues. Could be but most likely not.

MM and AFM are not licensed after something but only licensed as a theme and easily controlled by Williams.
Adams Family I have heard was even super tough to get Williams to license to make.

#16 10 years ago

The new reality is there is a cloud of uncertainty over the most desirable pins, in which there is a possibility of them being reproduced.
It could take years for the clouds of uncertainty to dissipate.

First, the MMR actually needs to be produced. Then, it will undergo an intensive under the microscope examination. If the pin buying public generally agrees that MMR indeed gives a good "bang for the buck", we can reasonably expect orders for the STANDARD MMR to run into the thousands.

Then of course, the big question is what pin will next be reproduced, at what price, and what quantities actually get sold.

I may indeed be naïve about pricing, but I see MM as the only pin capable of commanding an $8000 price
tag.
I also happen to think PPS will reproduce pins with a price tag of $5000 if they can turn a profit. I happen to think if Stern can put out a standard at just under $5K, PPS should have no problem reproducing a title (such as Funhouse) for $5K and turn a profit.
If things go well for PPS, I see them producing many more pin titles than one thinks. I see them milking every last ounce of profit from the remakes until the cow runs dry. MMR will of course be the most profitable title, and IMHO, a one time huge profit remake.

#17 10 years ago

I am in on the mm le even though i have a restored mm. i want to see for myself what the quality of this remake will be. at that point i figure my restore would still be worth more than the $8,000 remake since it was done by one of the top guys in the business. if remake doesn't live up to expectations, i will sell for the same $8,000. if it does live up to the hype, the restore will go up for sale as i would rather have a newer game. i don't think i will get the $13,000 i have into the restore anymore (could have a few months ago) but i have kept it mint by having professionally maintained and at the same time i have played the heck out of it. i can live with the loss knowing i enjoyed the machine a ton.

As far as these other titles are concerned, if i didn't have them already, i would hold out and see if a nervous owner wants to sell for a good price and then jump on it. first off, any other remake is all speculation at this point. we don't know if other titles will be made. they are remaking mm because of the economics of the situation. mm was demanding top prices. when that happens supply must go up and that is why planetary came into the picture. i really don't see cc being remade. even though the price is high, it is really a novelty in collections. the last game off the line. original code and a not fun theme made me dump it. now i know ccc is fun code, but the theme is still what it is and according to reports a remake cant run ccc. bbb is in the same boat. it would be pinball magic if made in large numbers. a good game but not a $22,000 game. the art on it would raise its price but not to astronomical levels. so what does that leave us with? titles like afm, ss, tom, totan, cv, taf, ij, cftbl, tz, mb, sttng, wh2o, fh, and shadow. with the exception of afm and mb, these others don't meet the governing laws of economics that state if price is extremely high supply must go up. the big difference with mm from afm and mb was that it was getting $10,000 plus for a beater and $20,000 for a nice restore. afm and mb did not reach that level and now they certainly won't as the prices are coming down because of the speculation. mm remake may just be a one and done in my opinion.

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from Slate:

Licensed titles that have estates attached to them like Twilight Zone, Adams Family will most likely never be made due to licensing issues. Could be but most likely not.
MM and AFM are not licensed after something but only licensed as a theme and easily controlled by Williams.
Adams Family I have heard was even super tough to get Williams to license to make.

Pinball Arcade was just recently able to add a bunch of licensed tables (Twilight Zone, ST:TNG, T2) by doing kickstarters of $40-$70k. That doesn't seem like a prohibitive cost if PPS can sell 500 or 1000 machines. Maybe there's something special about the Addams Family rights (I would think bigger issue is the 20,000+ tables that were originally made) but in general I don't think licensing is as big of a hurdle as you suggest.

Think about it this way - PPS was willing to pay Williams for licensing. If they see profit to be made why wouldn't they be willing to pay other rights holders as well if there is money to be made (especially with Pinball Arcade paving the way on many titles)?

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from sepins:

Was trying to buy a restored AFM and working with 2 sellers recently and now decided to wait.

Was thinking of trading my CQ TZ and cash for an upgraded ToTAN and now think TZ won't ever be reproduced but ToTAN might??? Think TZ has too many toys and would be expensive to reproduce.

I have a sample MM but still preordered MMLE. I'll bet a lot of people preordered that currently own MM's???

You are not alone and I am having the same reservations. I removed the Williams titles from my wishlist because I feel they may be re-produced. I then added some older under rated Sterns and added a Bally Shadow to my wishlist. I want a CC,MB, and a TOTAN. Now with my reservations, I have a wait and see approach. I will wait until MMR ships and then see what PPS game plan is.

#20 10 years ago

They may repro games like TZ, IJ, and TAF but it will be years down the road since the more obvious choices like AFM, CV, and CC would be much lower hanging fruit in their non-license themes, lower production runs, and higher market prices. If you still want the aforementioned anytime in the near future, you'll have to buy the originals. MMR runs will most likely keep them busy through 2014 at least.

#21 10 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Pinball Arcade was just recently able to add a bunch of licensed tables (Twilight Zone, ST:TNG, T2) by doing kickstarters of $40-$70k. That doesn't seem like a prohibitive cost if PPS can sell 500 or 1000 machines. Maybe there's something special about the Addams Family rights (I would think bigger issue is the 20,000+ tables that were originally made) but in general I don't think licensing is as big of a hurdle as you suggest.
Think about it this way - PPS was willing to pay Williams for licensing. If they see profit to be made why wouldn't they be willing to pay other rights holders as well if there is money to be made (especially with Pinball Arcade paving the way on many titles)?

Actually the licensing is a HUGE issue with games such as TZ and TAF.

TAF you have to get Raul Julia's family to OK any licensing, which if I remember correctly they are not doing right now.

TZ you have the issue of a separate license for using Rod Serling's likeness, + the licensing for Twilight Zone.

Then of course you have the issue of what do you charge. When you can find both games easily for 5k, your price point is going to have to be in that range, and I seriously doubt either of those games could be built for that amount now. Too much going on.

#22 10 years ago

Then of course you have the issue of what do you charge. When you can find both games easily for 5k, your price point is going to have to be in that range, and I seriously doubt either of those games could be built for that amount now. Too much going on.

Exactly my point above. Great response!

#23 10 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Actually the licensing is a HUGE issue with games such as TZ and TAF.
TAF you have to get Raul Julia's family to OK any licensing, which if I remember correctly they are not doing right now.
TZ you have the issue of a separate license for using Rod Serling's likeness, + the licensing for Twilight Zone.
Then of course you have the issue of what do you charge. When you can find both games easily for 5k, your price point is going to have to be in that range, and I seriously doubt either of those games could be built for that amount now. Too much going on.

I'm not privy to the existing agreements, but I would bet that the original agreements account for a royalty in perpetuity. Perhaps it was a limited number, but I don't think that's the case. If so, I would speculate the original license holder can subrogate the rights as long as the royalties are paid.

#24 10 years ago
Quoted from dsuperbee:

Actually the licensing is a HUGE issue with games such as TZ and TAF.
TAF you have to get Raul Julia's family to OK any licensing, which if I remember correctly they are not doing right now.
TZ you have the issue of a separate license for using Rod Serling's likeness, + the licensing for Twilight Zone.
Then of course you have the issue of what do you charge. When you can find both games easily for 5k, your price point is going to have to be in that range, and I seriously doubt either of those games could be built for that amount now. Too much going on.

If TZ licensing is such a big hurdle then how was Pinball Arcade able to pull it off (for ~$50k if I remember correctly)?

It's always possible that licensing won't work out in individual cases, of course, but in general IP owners want to make money just like the rest of us. And I'm especially skeptical of claims that deals can't/won't be reached when Pinball Arcade made similar deals with rights holders within the last year.

I don't disagree on your last point - if used copies are cheap enough PPS won't have incentive to make new ones. Not sure whether that price point is $5k, $7k, or somewhere else but I suppose time will tell!

#25 10 years ago

You know what. Do whatever you want to do. We aren't looking at people having new MMs until maybe 2015, and then the next game? Probably 2017 if there is one. And so on and so on....

By the time any other future games might get re-released (10-15 years from now) many of the old guard will be in the ground and their kids will have sold their collections and prices will go down anyway. YOLO guys, buy what you like and stop considering the investment end of pinball, thats over.

#26 10 years ago
Quoted from DrStarkweather:

You know what. Do whatever you want to do. We aren't looking at people having new MMs until maybe 2015, and then the next game? Probably 2017 if there is one. And so on and so on....
By the time any other future games might get re-released (10-15 years from now) many of the old guard will be in the ground and their kids will have sold their collections and prices will go down anyway. YOLO guys, buy what you like and stop considering the investment end of pinball, thats over.

I thought they said the MMr would start shipping around March to July 2014? Are you assuming they will slide like every other new pinball manufacturer that we have seen recently?

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from DrStarkweather:

You know what. Do whatever you want to do. We aren't looking at people having new MMs until maybe 2015, and then the next game? Probably 2017 if there is one. And so on and so on....

MM's are supposed to start shipping the second quarter of 2014

#28 10 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

If TZ licensing is such a big hurdle then how was Pinball Arcade able to pull it off (for ~$50k if I remember correctly)?
It's always possible that licensing won't work out in individual cases, of course, but in general IP owners want to make money just like the rest of us. And I'm especially skeptical of claims that deals can't/won't be reached when Pinball Arcade made similar deals with rights holders within the last year.
I don't disagree on your last point - if used copies are cheap enough PPS won't have incentive to make new ones. Not sure whether that price point is $5k, $7k, or somewhere else but I suppose time will tell!

Having to do 2 separate licenses is a pain. I do not know the specifics of pinball arcade's license, but I imagine it wasnt fun to have to deal with the estate for Rod as well as getting the TZ license. Disney had to do the same thing with the Tower of Terror rides I would imagine. If it wasn't such a big deal, then why hasn't TAF been released on pinball arcade yet? Why are TAF PFs not readily available to restore the 20k games out there?

I just don't see remakes happening for games that are easily had or produced in HUGE quantities (Addams was around 20k, TZ was around 15k)

-1
#29 10 years ago
Quoted from DrStarkweather:

You know what. Do whatever you want to do. We aren't looking at people having new MMs until maybe 2015,

???? It's not a JJP production. Sorry but when you lay out tens of thousands of dollars it starts to look like an investment for some. This is where the market will shift away from the Williams RE-RUNS and to the new collectible titles. Personally I'm staying away from the big ticket "A" titles till this all shakes out. I'd rather buy an LE from Stern knowing it's not going to get re-run. If JJP would run a limited number I'd add them but it sure seems he'll rebrand the same title to raise cash also, AULE case in point. Plus another year of WOZ production? Can the WOZ market support the flood of games for a YEAR? JPOP and Stern seem to have the collectible market. The rubber will hit the road very shortly when and if the call for another $7500 sinks in for many. The question will be asked do I want a COPY of MM? It's a 2013 copy. I'm even considering backing out. Why buy one? Rick will flood the market and when most find out the game isn't all that then the sell off will start on MMLE. The market moves on.......

#30 10 years ago

How about taking original table designs and rebranding them with different art and toys?

#31 10 years ago

I'm happy that they are remaking classic pins, but would much rather be getting a new original or a new theme based pinball. Most of us have played or owned these pins before and I have no interest in owning one again. How many times can you hit the castle? I love pinball but the whole thing to me anyway even back in the day was the excitement of going to the arcade a playing a new machine.

#32 10 years ago

We had a pinball playing party with colleagues from work yesterday. It seems that single one of my pins needed some adjusting/fixing during the evening as the machines were under a bit of a duress I think that is the nicest thing with the re-releases - their parts are not bended from years' of usage etc, so they will be nice to have and play without that much fixing. Grated, they are not originals nor will they have the value of the originals, but they will give an opportunity for new members to get to play such games they possible have not had the money for earlier. And if this stops the pinflation, that is a nice bonus as well. It has made me think about the purchase of used WMS-titles though - I think I will go for only such pins that are in good shape and cost below some threshold I have yet to figure out

#33 10 years ago
Quoted from 2RustyBalls:

Personally I'm staying away from the big ticket "A" titles till this all shakes out. I'd rather buy an LE from Stern knowing it's not going to get re-run.

Stern basically does re-run LE games... different cab art and backglass same game play
(they are called premiums)

#34 10 years ago
Quoted from zod:

I'm happy that they are remaking classic pins, but would much rather be getting a new original or a new theme based pinball. Most of us have played or owned these pins before and I have no interest in owning one again. How many times can you hit the castle? I love pinball but the whole thing to me anyway even back in the day was the excitement of going to the arcade a playing a new machine.

How many times can you ring a bell (ac/dc) or crash a space ship (star trek)? It seems like you can do it alot and its still fun

#35 10 years ago

Yes I think there will be a delay of some kind, when was the last time there has been a pinball game made WITHOUT a delay of some sort. Iv been conditioned at this point to EXPECT delays.

#36 10 years ago

It's hard to fault anyone for being cautious with their money in the wake of recent events. When it comes to the top tier pins, I think many people are in a holding pattern while they wait to see how things pan out. You'd be pretty foolish not to at least exercise a little prudence.

#37 10 years ago
Quoted from rockotaco1:

I'm sorry but this thread is just ridiculous. Please think before you post.

HA, you should see the ridiculous threads I start

#38 10 years ago

Buy the machines you want at the prices you want to pay. If a buyer doesn’t like your offer, hold out for another opportunity (plenty of machines out there). I’ve passed on plenty of opportunities, both buying and selling, and ultimately I always find a deal that works for me, just takes time. As a buyer, when I really want something I offer the seller his asking price – works every time unless the game is already sold. As a seller, I price my machines at my “break even” price. If the machine doesn’t sell within a month then my “break even” price is too high. At that point I decide to either lose money or sell a different machine. Every once in a while I get lucky with a NIB Stern that actually goes up in value, but 9 times out of 10 I lose money on Stern purchases.

Buying/selling restored machines is a whole different market. You almost always get what you want (within reason) if you are willing to wait it out.

FYI – my WPC/WPC95 machines are extremely reliable, but I spend a ton of time/money restoring them. Knock on wood, I’ve never had a board issue with any of my personal machines once they are finished. I'd be screwed if I had to work on a Stern or JJP board though.

#39 10 years ago
Quoted from ctozzi:

all original NOS parts

Thats what I'm talking about!!!

#40 10 years ago

I originally reserved an MMLE but on the announcement that they will run untitled demand is met made me op out of the initial and wait for the second run. No reason to roll the dice I an unproven product when I can get one later

Just my 2 cents

#41 10 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

I originally reserved an MMLE but on the announcement that they will run untitled demand is met made me op out of the initial and wait for the second run. No reason to roll the dice I an unproven product when I can get one later
Just my 2 cents

I am in on an LE as well, but I am considering cancelling. It is a lot of money for me, and if they are going to keep producing standards for a while I can wait and see. Since the LE and Standard are basically the same, I would be fine owning a standard. Better yet, I'd love to find a used MM (Original or Remake) in a year or so for less than 8k. I have to imagine if the remake's are well made player condition MM's will drop well below 8k in value...

#42 10 years ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

MM's are supposed to start shipping the second quarter of 2014

I'll believe it when I see it. I'm really just basing the idea that it will take longer, off of the fact that JJP had it's struggles getting things rolling.

Quoted from hoby1:

I originally reserved an MMLE but on the announcement that they will run untitled demand is met made me op out of the initial and wait for the second run. No reason to roll the dice I an unproven product when I can get one later
Just my 2 cents

Some people on Pinside don't see it that way. They think you should blindly send money to PPS and then shut your trap and be glad that PPS is doing you this undeserved favor. I say, wait and see.

#43 10 years ago
Quoted from sepins:

Was trying to buy a restored AFM and working with 2 sellers recently and now decided to wait.
Was thinking of trading my CQ TZ and cash for an upgraded ToTAN and now think TZ won't ever be reproduced but ToTAN might??? Think TZ has too many toys and would be expensive to reproduce.
I have a sample MM but still preordered MMLE. I'll bet a lot of people preordered that currently own MM's???
I am one of those guys that hates older Wms/Bally board issues!

I'm confused about why you'd wait on buying the AFM. You own a MM and are buying another MM, so clearly money is not an issue in your life....if you want an AFM to play, just go buy one!

#44 10 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm confused about why you'd wait on buying the AFM. You own a MM and are buying another MM, so clearly money is not an issue in your life....if you want an AFM to play, just go buy one!

Good point, now that you mention it.

#45 10 years ago

Very few people actually sent money to PPS, they were one of six distributors. The deposits are 100% fully refundable until the game is done.

So yah, people "blindly" put down a deposit with reputable dealers to secure their place in line for the couple of months they said it would take to finish the game up.

What's the big deal?

Quoted from Honch:

Some people on Pinside don't see it that way. They think you should blindly send money to PPS and then shut your trap and be glad that PPS is doing you this undeserved favor. I say, wait and see.

#46 10 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

The deposits are 100% fully refundable until the game is done.

Is it until games are done...or game is approved?

#47 10 years ago

It doesn't make much sense for the game to be approved before it's done. If that happens, then Williams and Roger Sharpe really don't care and anyone who put down money on this thing is in for it.

Quoted from spfxted:

Is it until games are done...or game is approved?

#48 10 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Is it until games are done...or game is approved?

Refundable until the game is approved by Williams. As I understand it from PPS's posts here, PPS expects to get approval within the next few months, and will give a brief window at that point for people to drop out, after which the deposit becomes non-refundable.

#49 10 years ago
Quoted from jalpert:

What's the big deal?

It's not a big deal to me, it's just the mindset of some people, that I don't understand.

#50 10 years ago
Quoted from Honch:

Good point, now that you mention it.

He can buy a AFM now and an AFM remake later...just like with MM lol

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