wha?

So you're saying there are parts available for your car?
Really an overblown response assuming i have a problem with new tech.really only required a yes or no answer.
Something like "yes plenty of parts in stock."
Typed and sent from a brand new Mac.I love technology

Probably more parts available for his car than my Williams pinball machines.

I think he thinks I was taking a shot at MMr.This is a polarizing subject. Haven't seen one response that likes both the original AND the remake.

I had a real nice original that I sold and then pre-ordered the remake. But that was like a lifetime ago. I've played both and no longer desire either. I know which one was better though. Some just don't want to hear it.

Personally, I wish PPS would reconsider remaking TAF next beyond MMR.

The interest is solid, game is a classic, and playfield parts reproduction is good.

Considering the number of blown out playfields despite reproductions, this would continue to be a good decision for collectors, players, and operators. Of course, this requires MMR to be completed first.

Operators continue to route this title successfully, even when they are turning to ash, in terms of condition. They STILL make money.

WOW! You better start from the beginning then.....there are a ton of posts where people state they would take either one and even more where people do lean one way but would be perfectly happy with either!

I personally would be happy with either....8k for routed used or 8k for new MMr I lean towards the MMr. If that original was 8k NIB I would take it......I'm not stupid

Then there's the third group that doesn't give a shit.

Are you interested in a TAFr at $8k? I'm guessing not many takers. The big question for me is will the next game be $8k and sell well? If it's AFMr at $8k I think sales will be quite low. If it's MBr, sales will be ok, but not near MMr sales. CCr with updated code I think you sell well at $8k. TAFr at $8k will go over like a lead balloon in my opinion.

Yes, if it was well designed, and I could get spare electronics for backup.
Many originals are completely beat to hell now, unless fully restored.
EVERYTHING else would have to be identical to the original, so it could be be compatible with current spare parts reproductions.
I don't need a fancy ColorDMD and PinSound and other whiz bangs to buy it.
This way the price could be moderated into the lower $7K region.

Interesting perspective, no doubt, regarding other titles.
Consideration for a different posting of speculation.

I disagree with your TAF assessment beyond MMR from observations and here is why:

1) $8K is the current market price for collector quality examples of this machine title, if not MUCH higher.
2) Brand new machines cost nearly $8K, and operators WANT to use them on locations, they make MONEY.
3) This is the #1 machine bought and sold by pinball brokers around the world, they can never keep them in stock for long.
(Of course, this does not mean the person that bought them, keeps them long either, they flip them back when bored, and the process starts all over at a higher price)

The game would be profitable for recreation not just for collectors, but also operators as as means of income, equal if not more so than MMR. I know this, because in OUR area there nearly a dozen still on locations raking in quarters alone.

You might not want to buy it, but new collectors DO.
The market shows the trend.
Like you, I have owned TAF, and in my case twice.

What PPS does is their decision, I wont try to "change the future", just watch TAF continue to rise at ridiculously stupid prices as they have for the past decade.

There is no way an 8k TAFr would sell.......no way.

Bought an original in beautiful condition plays fantastic, I'm still waiting for my MMR! In all honesty I like the fact I can led it, mod friendly and make an original my own so I'm going with original ! Same goes with the AFM, CC, that I'm still looking to ad to the line up, This experience hasn't been the best with paying 11/2 ago, Hunting down Twisted pins, I'm done with remakes, well that's hard to say because Im still waiting

It would be more accurate to say:

"Would you rather own a Rembrandt portrait that he painted in 1640 with the best materials available at the time, or a Rembrandt portrait that he painted in 1660 with the best materials available at the time?"

I'm sure the answer to original owners is whichever is worth more. Has nothing to do with the actual product.

...and the 1660 version instead of signing it himself he had his plumber sign it "Prickly Pete"

No, both properly signed, but with higher quality ink that is capable of lasting longer on the later version.

FFS this is getting ridiculous!

I think you are missing the fact that his joke refers to the fact that the Williams Logo is missing.

Besides, the whole premise of the thread is a bit apples to oranges. How about a pinball sales place goes out of business and is selling off the inventory He has 2 boxes. An NIB Williams MM he found in the back and an MMr. He says they are the same price but you can only buy one. Anyone saying they'd take the MMr is a liar.

Why? An NIB MM is worth more. It has 20 year old boards and technology, why is it worth more? Because it is.

If you didn't get an original when prices were lower you are lucky to have MMr a an option. If you got one a long time ago good for you. If you can afford a HEP MM without thinking about it good for you. I have mine for many years and many thousands less. My friend got his MMr (in Stainless thank God) and we are both happy. The only reason for this thread seems to be to pit owners against each other.

Hey, Nice tie in. I'm a plumber!!

Best statement I have read on this thread.

"Because it is" is an extremely subjective argument to determine MM's greater worth.

Demand is a key factor in the value.

Those previously interested in an original dropped out of the buyer's pool causing the price to drop. Time will be the ultimate test of how value will compare, but demand for the original has dropped.

Of course, there will always be those who only want an original, I understand that. But with fewer buyers who care, the relative difference in price may become as inconsequential as gold armor vs silver armor.

Those who buy the game primarily for it's value, not gameplay, will have a smaller pool of buyers interested when they want to sell, and that will negatively affect the value due to decreased demand. It takes time for the market to work things out.

There are a finite number of originals. You think somehow the ability to keep pumping out new ones on demand will somehow make them eventually "worth more" than the originals because you shrink the number of buyers? No, the market has changed, no doubt. The ridiculous rise in the originals has ended. And the probability of other remakes has slowed the rise of those few in the > $8K pool. But it won't turn it upside down.

Original for me. The new ones will cost more here than for what what an original can be had. I am not a fan of LEDs anyway, even Vacation America had real lamps in its hokey under playfield boards.

I have played both, but not many times

I am not a huge fan of MM, I mean I just don't get why its worth a mint - but that is just me (so be it)

I played a brand new remake over the summer at the boardwalk at Rehoboth Beach, DE. It seemed kind of shallow/cheaply made/not sure... just cant put a finger on it. It wasn't as "BEEFY" of a feel as a WPC game. I left feeling like a played MM on a "virtual pin". That maybe overstating it but that is as close as I can come to making a comparison.

That said, If I ever got one it would be ORIGINAL ALL THE WAY!

This has already been said before (on this thread), people do not listen.

This is a war of "Battle for the Kingdom".
I did not happen with original prototype BBBs and remakes by Gene Cuttingham, different age of collectors I guess. Simply put, PinSide did not exist either.

Most that own one were not battling it out for "rights of the knighthood".
They still are not.
In that case to be completely fair, all BBBs used the same technology and parts anyway (with a few exceptions), and Gene's actually made some improvements.

Things to consider, as I hope everybody that wants a MMr gets one, and can remain patient enough to acquire one.
At this point, people are starting to reverse their orders and buy an original, if available. Time will tell what the final outcome will be and if PPS makes it to a second title.
I am not going to speculate anything to "insight a pitchfork and torch, angry peasant mob riot".

I bought an original. Tried and true

I hope those out there love their MMR, I'm sure it's great, I just really wanted an original.

I did want an original MM and would have paid the MMR price for it but in Australia they were at least $2K dearer than a new MMR so it was a no brainer for me.
If I could have found an original MM for the same price the MMR cost then I would have bought it 2 years ago.
Now since I have have my MMR with all the problems with it I would still say I made the right choice as the problems can be fixed (if CGC ever answer my ticket after 35 days) and you still have a NIB game with LED's and a nice clearcoated PF.

Finally got my MMR last week. I've spent 2 years+ wondering if I should get the cash back and buy an original. I'm now glad I went down the remake route as the machine plays better than the original MMs I've played, simply because the originals have all had a hard life.
If it was a choice between two machines in identical condition for the same price then who wouldn't pick the original one? However, where are all these minty original MMs?

As someone who just wants to play pinball and doesn't have the best technical skills to maintain an older machine, it's an easy answer. MMR all the way. For me it's not about collecting value or history, I just like playing fun games.

After having a NIB Tron pro sitting next to my TZ which has had all kinds of issues, I've decided buying older machines is less attractive to me than the NIB experience. Although I may make an exception for a nice Getaway

Hopefully MMR proves to be reliable in the long term!

Exactly.

Some people are into the game.

Some people are into the prestige.

All of them?

My original has been lounging around in a basement since 1999. It plays like new. Not every original MM is worn out... collectors snatched up a lot of them back in the early 2000s, that's why the price went batshit crazy. The flood of collectors over the last 4-5 years has had to pick over the remnants, hence the demand for remakes. But, there's a lot more nice original games our there than you think...

Your TZ wasn't shopped out correctly. Since 1999, I've had to re-solder a switch, adjust the trough proximity sensor and change rubbers on my TZ. Even the clock boards still work (drilled housing). An old game can be made as reliable as new with a proper shop job.

Has nothing to do with being "shopped correctly". 20+ year old electronics can simply die.....at any moment. Certainly some older games are way more "brittle" than others depending on how they were used/stored. But even an HUO 90's pin can start having random issues with the boards at this point. My Getaway was perfect the whole time I had it.....not one problem.....I was SUPER lucky. STTNG and IJ I've had to work on numerous times to keep them running......that's probably more the norm for pins this old.

If you want older games you better know how to work on them or have the money to have someone else do it.......even if it's 100% when you bought it the odds are it won't stay that way for very long.

A brand new game can also "simply die at any moment" shit happens its pinball lots of mechanical and electrical stuff going on, I have had issues with 1 day old NIB games. If you want to own a pinball machine (new or old) you better learn how to work on them!

Most problems that occur on older games have usually been documented and have fixes or bulletproofing. Problems with newer games are still being discovered. And when out of warranty seem like they can be quite expensive. Node boards, light boards on other games.

And now the nib MMr problem might be I just paid $8K for a new game that has a damaged playfield from the slingshot or printing you can't read. As one of the owners of a bad printing said in another thread. He is worried 5 to 10 years from now when he goes to sell it he is going to hear "oh, you have one of those". And he's right. His game is instantly worth less than other MMr games. There will be posts asking "going to look at an MMr, what do I look for?". And that list is just being built now.

Sorry. Now I'd rather buy a used MMr than a NIB. I can't imaging the stress of putting that kind of money down, waiting so long and having to wait until you open the box to know if you win or lose.

Where is the Medieval Madness official club thread?

I found something that was created about 2 years ago, but it was only a page long... Certainly the #1 game on pinside has a bustling club!?

But will a pinball machine fit in either?

They were still $5k back then in minting shape...believe me, I was looking. That was crazy back then. Next closest machine price wise was MB at around $3500 (and that was a lot too). I settled for games like IJ and TAF and TOM ETC, etc for low $2ks...never did get a MB, but paid the $8k for MMr. It's worth it, even with the minor issues.

Yep, if it ain't broke it ain't pinball!

If they were both new out of the box I would go original.
Being that will not happen I would go HEP or MMR.
I have never seen in person a MM as nice as my MMR so it would have to be a HEP at $1 or $7995.

As an owner of a MMR....and has owned and worked on many WPC machines.

MMR all the way. I would not turn down a MM in great shape but the new electronics you cannot beat. Much more reliable and way easier to repair. No massive solenoid lamp board. Modular ones that can be replaced easier. Much better power supplies, etc. I have had 2 WPC machines with random reboots due to aging caps, etc.

The build quality on the MMR is second to now impossible to tell from the outside its not an original.

I do miss being able to change lamps around (colors, etc). Some 44 sockets on MMR you can do but most are surface mount.

You cannot go wrong with either one BUT if you had to pay 8k for a MM may as well get a MMR. Was cool unboxing a brand new machine like MMR.

Also this is full plywood box, bottom and cabinet. Its not sheet metal back box like some sterns.

My vote is for MMR all the way unless a MM can be had for much cheaper. The fact that the cost of MM's have dropped a lot shows most people would rather buy new MMR then MM. Already 700+ LE's have been shipped and who knows how many on order.

No Williams logo? LCD screen? LED lighting? (Transparent inserts? Chipped sling arm holes?)

Plenty of ways to tell original from remake from the outside...

Was about to go into nitpicking details. LCD looks like DMD unless you put your eye up close. LED looks like incandescent for the most part with the software.

To me, without getting anal about the tiny items (most of which are superior to the original) the machines look 99% the same and same quality. The inserts are a defect which is another issue in it self

You must be a original biased MM owner.

I've played both....I like both. But to play - MMr, Buy to "collect/speculate" Original.

I buy to play.

played both, like both but there is a new one out so why buy the old one unless you just have a connection to the game or for nostalgia. They play exactly the same

As you appear to be a "biased" MMR owner
kind of a silly argument as you just accused Metallik of doing the same thing you are doing (having a biased opinion)

I am an original owner who was prepared to upgrade to the remake, until I learned the remake was not an upgrade...

Dude, you are seriously blind. I hope to hell you are not licensed to drive...

How can anybody possibly make this claim until MMRs have been around for a while?

Don't understand that reasoning. We buy new TV's phones, etc with the latest electronics we do not need time to know they are superior to old electronic components. Why would pinball be any different. You learn and improve and pinball did that. Look at Stern and their systems.

5 boards filling the back box which cost a fortune to replace or repair vs a small inexpensive beaglebone CPU? If you do not think that's an update then who knows.

Yes I am blind, the emulated dots on the LCD using the SAME software from MM looks nothing like the DMD. Almost thought it was a different game on the LCD. Guess computers are not powerful enough and our monitors do not have the high def to replicate a 40 year old DMD technology. Maybe one day we will get there. May be smart to invest in DMD stock.