Yeah, because most owners paid an arm and a leg for their originals. Or got them before the price went crazy. New versus old at comparable price for a pinball machine is just stupid. New wins.

I don't believe my argument is based in emotion. From my perspective, it's one of a known platform vs. an unknown one. I own or have owned several other games with the WPC95 hardware. This new machine really has an unknown platform. Not better or worse, unknown. It also looks like it's not quite as user-serviceable as the original platform is. Also, I don't care for the LED lighting they chose for the new game, and there's nothing the user can do to change it, as far as I know.

It seems like all the guys who DIDN'T previously/currently own an original seem to think that copies are more valuable. Personally, i've never heard of a hobby where a copy was more valuable than the original but maybe this is one of those exceptions. Probably not, however.

I can't believe all the sour grapes/ bad feelings some of you guys spew over a god-damn wooden box. Grow up, men.

Yes, and don't forget those capacitors on those 15 year old boards and other components which give out. Capacitors only have a finite life. Additionally alot easier to fry transistors on these games. Does everyone do the same logic when they buy a TV, Microwave, DVD player, Washer, Dryer, Car, etc - all with SMD components - that it's more reliable to buy a 15 year old version of these? hmm. The SMD boards are easy to fix, the SMD boards have current components, and the SMD boards are easily replaceable as we will have available as spare parts. I can understand that it's nice to take the boards out and spend a few hours debugging them, and replacing the components, I've done that as everyone has, but it's also nice to have a replacement board that you can just unplug and put in.

And then all of the features that do not come in the original game ...

just the feedback we are hearing from the customers.

rick

Cargument...appliancegument...it's all the same.

None of the things you listed are pinball machines, and that logic doesn't apply to them. All of those things - after 15 years of regular use - are disposed of and replaced, as the expense of keeping them running is not acceptable and it's easier and cheaper to replace them. The same is not true with a pinball machine.

We KNOW how reliable a WPC machine is 15 years later, especially after a bare minimum of work is done making the boards like new (and if you are too lazy to do it, $100 will get it done by any number of reliable board guys). And most people have decided that level of reliability is acceptable and desirable.

We have no idea how the new ones are going to hold up, if parts will be available, if the design will turn out to be solid.

Lots of question marks that have nothing to do with microwaves or cars.

I played an original HUO MM at a friend's house yesterday. Came home and played my MMr. I'm glad I bought MMr.

The original's moat could kick the ball STDM almost every time. It was also dim dim dim. Yes, I know these things can be fixed - but it just goes to show comparing the 2 doesn't always favor the original. Otherwise they play and feel exactly the same, IMO. I see zero reason to spend the same money on something 20 years old when you can get it brand new and improved for the same price.

No doubt! The ability to work on them makes all the difference in the world. There are no arguments that can be made, the new board set and it's potential problems are unknown at this point.

I'm on board for investing in new platforms and pushing this hobby forward. Eventually older parts will be harder to find and we'll need more than just elbow grease to keep these games alive.

This is a 5 minute fix for anyone with the most basic skills.

As long as the new platform doesn't go the way of vacation america.

Don't even get me started on the reliability of modern "hi tech" appliances & electronics. My HE washing machine failed about 2 months after the warranty expired. The new board to fix it was available but was well over $300 and that was if I tore the thing apart and installed it myself. Long story short my new HE "high tech" washer lasted just over 3 years and is now at the dump, my 20 year old washer and dryer set that I sold to a friend are still running strong.
IMHO new electronics TV's, washers etc are throw away after a few years they are not built to last, they are made to fail so you will have to go buy a new one every 3 to 5 years.
Sorry for the appliancegument

All of you guys are comparing Apple's to Oranges. You could say the same thing about Stern. What is the reliability of their new spike board? Nobody fuckin knows but we keep spending tons of money with them for their latest and greatest. Funny we don't ever see the argument with the change to their systems. MMR is awesome and my new black LE plays perfect right out of the box with out issue. I can't wait to purchase another remake title and have a brand new pin.

Now flip off and play some flippin pinball!

Best thing I heard on Pinside yet!!!

Glad someone said it.... the hypocrisy in this thread is laughable.

The new has a fresh minty smell, I would also buy the MMR

I'm still on the fence, I'm a new collector/player, only 2 years into this hobby. I spend too much time on pin side

Only 3 guys I know of within 200 miles of me care about pinball

Someone sell me a nice $6500 MM and get it over with

So Me and a few can go play some pinball!

Or I'll just keep saving and see what falls in my lap next year or so and keep playing with myself... I mean my pins

That's the best thing you can do for sure. Once all the MMr's get delivered (if that ever happens) they will no longer be hard to find. Plenty will come up for sale or trade and the $6500 mark for an MMr should be doable with some patience.

Tee kee just scored a nice 6500 MM!

We have two washing machines in the house. One is 23 years old, purrs like a kitten. Had to be repaired once 12 years ago. The other machine broke down approx. 10 years ago and since prices on new machines are surprisingly low we got a really high end model. Broke down after 4 years, repair to expensive, got a new one. Broke down after 2 years. We got a new one on guarantee which has just broken down 4 months ago. Repair man was here and stated "get a new one" and going out the door "never let go of your old machine, with a little care it will hold up for many years to come - no one is able to produce that kind of quality any more".

Sorry for OT, just don't see the point of this argument. The reasons you replace most of the listed things is either the short life span products have today or technological enhancements like HD or BluRay. None of this matters on a remake of a 20 year old pinball machine.

New electronics are smaller, more cost efficient and far more energy efficient. But they are not more reliable or durable and for sure not less delicate (e.g. static sensitivity). The loads of circuits and functions in one chip also massively increases the risk of devices going obsolete.

Still no hard feeling towards MMR, I like the machine. But I very much prefer the original.

WRONG!

Teekee, I agree with you on so many issues but you are dead wrong on pricing for MM or MMR. MMR will not drop from its price point.... well known restores are getting rid of their originals for remakes. Most originals are redone with remanufactured parts from PPS and others, you can't say originals are complete originals. Time for you to throw in the towel bro...

Good luck selling any HEP MM for more than 9k.

Peace!

Wrong!

Peace

Not everyone - I'd dare say a minority even - on this board is buying Spike based games, and even those that do are probably expecting that there will be a lot more games produced on that system than will be produced by CGC. Even if CGC / PPS does another remake (AFMr, or whatever) they may change the electronics for that system. Sure Spike is still a gamble, but I think it's safe to say most expect a lot more games to be made with it than CGC's system. Of course "Spike" or Stern aren't really on topic for the thread (MM versus MMR) so I apologize for continuing the OT argument.

I do agree with your last comment 100%!

You said the same thing about WoZ when it was selling for $8500-$9000... WRONG AGAIN no Bro.

Hum..really? Never said that about WOZ, you might want to take a memory pill...

I see no logic in this. If I have the choice to buy a new MMR I would only consider a used MMR if it's at least 20% off the NIB price - why should I buy a used product for a price similar to a readily available new one??? When the market is saturated enough they will take an even bigger drop.

Not arguing to much on the HEP MM price you are stating, though. I think a really nice original will stay somewhere slightly above range of NIB MMR and not lose more value. It's still a collectors item after all while MMR is "just" a normal consumer product.

Maybe the market is completely different in the US, but over here no-one would sell a nice original MM for a remake. Yes, people are getting rid of beat up project machines in favor of MMR, but not the nice ones.

Maybe I'm just biased in this whole original vs. remake discussion because all my pin collecting friends (including myself) are freaks that only buy close to perfect or HUO-quality machines. Additionally I always have all boards serviced and reworked (new caps, BRs, etc.) whenever I get a pin, so I never have experienced any breakdowns so far.
Thinking about it I actually even pass playing on very used looking or beat up machines because I just don't enjoy playing run down games at all.

EDIT EDIT

Not sure how this relates to my post...?!??

EDIT: I edited my original post to be more clear - when referring to "used one" I meant a "used MMR" of course!

EDIT: That makes sense... EDIT: Got It! EDIT EDIT

I don't get the reliability debate. Many of us own 20+ year old pinball machines made by companies long out of business. Things go wrong and they can be fixed. Stern has their fair share of issues but as far as I know, all can be fixed. I really don't care if it's a remake or an original if it's a title I want. The only issue is cost.

I got to put some time on 2 different original MM's and one MMr at the York show. Both original MMs were in really nice shape and played well. Both MMs and the MMr felt the same playing. However on the MMs many ramp shots just didn't have the power to make it. The shots were not spot on but they should have mad it. On the MMr most every shot made it. So I guess it just an old verse new thing. I believe older technologies are built stronger but also realize new technologies are built smarter.

The new game was easier for you. That's nice. Sounds like 2015 to me. Nothing too hard. We're a fragile bunch.

Please send any 9k or lower HEP MM sellers my way. Not joking. Cash in hand, ready to go.

Same words were in my mind when playing it. I enjoy playing, don't need to be a pro. "Guys just wanna have fun"
In exactly 3 seconds the song will be stuck in your head. 1, 2, 3, Guys just wanna have fun.......

I love playing against people who make it easier for themselves. From coil strength to out-lane posts. Then when I get to play the people with wuss setups they look bad even on their own games.

flippers needed to be rebuilt on the old ones. all shots can be made easily

FU

it would be fun to go play different peoples collections. I think I have my games setup massively fast just due to others I have played at shows but it sounds like you might too. I'm pretty sure the average joe would come play my stuff and have that "holy f'n sh_tballs" feeling as he tried to keep the ball in play. but.. I'd love to go somewhere and get that same feeling as compared to my games

What do you mean by "average"? You need to identify me directly if you are going to make accusations like that!

This kind of reminds me of the Dr. Seuss story of the star bellied Sneetches. At one time not every Sneetch had a star and they felt left out...

MMowner.jpg

Till the day of the big announcement...

RemakeAnounced.png

Production followed and soon everone that wanted one could have one....

InProduction.jpg

Save your money as soon there will be more on the way...

I'llBeBack.png

I never use to either. But I also didn't want my games so easy I got sick of them. I have not beaten or gotten to most of the wizard modes on my games in all these years.

Then when I started playing in the leagues I did start to care about my score compared to others. I am happy that we keep score, have winners and losers and not everyone gets a participation trophy.

Here's an interesting one... How many people traded their original MM or a remake? That will give you your answer. Next how many
regretted the trade

I am not a great player. But I have gotten better and more consistent because I am playing against others. As with many types of competitive activities you find yourself playing and getting better when you play others better than you. You can push yourself and try to beat you own scores but it is not the same.

I never expected to play competitive. I have played for decades on my own and enjoyed it. But when dragged out of my home arcade just a few years ago a depth was added that I did not know was missing.

And playing league games like Pin-Golf is a whole other new experience. These are the same people you play against in the regular season league. And you are all playing to win. But for some strange reason you are cheering each other on in the group you are in at each "hole".

So in a nutshell, I'm not saying you aren't and "aficionado". I was quite happy playing in my home game room. I'm saying you don't know what you are missing. I didn't until recently. To each their own, but don't knock it until you tried it.

Yes, now I don't drink alone as much

When I have my regular friends of 30+ years over we have beer and a great time. They even play "some" pinball. But it is not the same as getting together with a few dozen like minded people every week. And playing in the NEPL for 8 week leagues gives you a reason and set time. The Sanctum crew is a great bunch of guys to have a beer and play pinball with.

Like I said, I didn't know until I tried it. Is it for everyone? I doubt it. Maybe I will even grow tired. But right now we meet, play, drink a beer, talk new games, do repair work, talk trash, drink a beer ...

Just for shits and giggles, what would a basket case go for?

I bought an MMr. I like new, always have. I am OK with original games, but I have never had the choice until now. I went with MMr and I don't regret it at all. I'll make sure I get spare boards, and I have lots of folks here where I work that are experts a SMD that work on way more complicated stuff than the PCBs in MMr

This is a great time to be into pinball.

I think the amount of time a person has been in this hobby is the biggest factor in whether they'd like an mmr or an original.

6,500!!!