(Topic ID: 140104)

MM: for the same price, would you buy original or remake?


By nosro

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 363 posts
  • 120 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by CCary
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“For the same price, which would you prefer?”

  • Medieval Madness original in "very good" condition 217 votes
    48%
  • Medieval Madness remake NIB 239 votes
    52%

(456 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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There are 363 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 8.
#1 3 years ago

It seems that For Sale posts for the original Medieval Madness are regularly sidetracks by conversation about original vs. remake. Let's keep those For Sale posts about the machine for sale and let the debate about original vs. remake occur here. No trolling intended here.

I have attempted to pose this as a realistic conundrum for people. A more ideal comparison might be an HUO original compared to a NIB remake, but I think finding an HUO original in excellent condition is exceedingly rare and not an opportunity that is likely to present itself to too many people. There are a good number of "very good" condition MM machines, however, leaving potential buyers with this dilemma.

If you think this is a clear cut decision for yourself, what price difference do you think you need to switch camps?

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#2 3 years ago

I had a remake standard pre-ordered through my distributor but then a restored original came available - I jumped on it and haven't looked back...

14
#3 3 years ago

Original. There's been a wealth of information and spare parts to fix them over the past two decades. No doubt they will be easily maintained for a couple decades more. Sure MMR might be more reliable, but it's not more maintainable. If I'm spending $8k on a stupid toy, I need to know I can fix it easily myself when it inevitably breaks down the line. As a normal collector and not one of the smart electronics repair guys, all the tiny surface mount chips and LEDs on the giant remake PCB scare me.

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#4 3 years ago

It would take an extremely nice original to be as good as the remake. I'd prefer the original, but an original in great condition is still well north of 8k.

#5 3 years ago

Are the brains of that thing really stapled to the underside of the playfield?!

That seems like a pretty bad idea. Playfield vibration is enough to knock solidly soldered wires off of coils, can't imagine what it will do to transistors and chips over the years.

#6 3 years ago

Original. No doubt about it in my opinion.

-4
#7 3 years ago

Picking up a remake over an MM original is like picking up a blowup doll over Kate Upton.

#8 3 years ago

If I have a preference...I'd take an original MM

Nevertheless...I'm excited to be getting a MMr soon, (this week, I was told).

#9 3 years ago

I personally picked an original over a remake for reasons already mentioned above by DefaultGen. I recently got to play a friend's MMR in person and I think it looks and plays just like the original. I almost bought a MMR myself but a really nice local HUO MM came up so I decided to buy it and no regrets. I have been enjoying mine for the past 1.5 years while my friend finally got his and I have a few others who ordered MMR in black who are still patiently waiting.

#10 3 years ago

I really like the idea of an original, and I just made this decision about two months ago. An original one became available at slightly less than the price of a MMR and it was in phenomenal shape, so I bought it. But in all fairness, how can I knock a remake if I've never seen one or played one?

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#11 3 years ago

I had an original and it played and looked... well.....just like an original.

I like to do my own lighting to my own tastes so again it would be an original for me.

-1
#12 3 years ago

I had a remake on order for over a year and a half and a like new restored original came available and I bought it. If I added all the mods that this game has, it would cost me more than the remake with the same mods. As a collector the original will be worth more to me in the long run. With the drop in price for an original today they will hold there value better than a remake. I don't care what collector hubby you are in, originals are what collectors are looking to buy and not remakes.

#13 3 years ago

I have an affinity for older, more seasoned electronics and circuit boards...they age like a fine wine

14
#14 3 years ago

MMR LE all the way I have a new one and a very nice original, myself and guests don't even play the old one anymore it looks dark and plays a lot slower and flippers aren't as strong as the MMR

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#15 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinwhiz70:

MMR LE all the way I have a new one and a very nice original, myself and guests don't even play the old one anymore it looks dark and plays a lot slower and flippers aren't as strong as the MMR

image.jpg

you are exactly right. the flippers on the old one aren't as strong. The MMR gives me a stern feeling to a 20 year game. but from a collectors stand point original all the way. I hope the price tanks even lower so I can buy one

#16 3 years ago

It is premature to determine the durability of the remakes.

Only a few of them have a year of service completed (just the ones that were taken to shows?).

It would be nice to hear reports from the MMr's that are being operated on locations, to see how well they are holding up.

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from cavalier88z24:

The MMR gives me a stern feeling to a 20 year game.

That's a good or bad thing?

EDIT: Serious question...for me, it would be a bad thing I think

#18 3 years ago

If your flippers aren't strong enough on the original then the game needs new mechs and shopped. My original plays fast. Any faster and I might clip some dragon wings or knock a turret of the castle.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from dmesserly:

If your flippers aren't strong enough on the original then the game needs new mechs and shopped. My original plays fast. Any faster and I might clip some dragon wings or knock a turret of the castle.

Same thing I was thinking, properly working WPC flippers are more than strong enough for MM, even on a 8.5-9 degree setup all shots are easily made, any stronger and you're just going to risk damage.

#20 3 years ago

I dont think this question can be posed without using price... You should add... $8000 MMR or $10,000 MM in reasonably similar condition and modification. That seems to be the choice I am at and after talking to someone with both he said very quickly MMR--- no looking back. And with the colour DMD code coming... It was a no brainer if he had the choice of only 1 of them.

#21 3 years ago

Lets vote again after the color dmd is released for the MMR hopefully next month sometime,

#22 3 years ago

I was in on the remake in the first few hours, and very excited. I was under the impression it was a true remake- part for part with the same boards, etc. As details came out about what was actually being made, I jumped ship and never looked back. No regrets.

#23 3 years ago

36 to 36. Does that mean original MMs should be $8k games now since people think they're about the same?

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinwhiz70:

MMR LE all the way I have a new one and a very nice original, myself and guests don't even play the old one anymore it looks dark and plays a lot slower and flippers aren't as strong as the MMR.

Could it be you have some burned out bulbs or haven't added any LEDs to try to brighten things up? Here is a picture of frolic's MMR with a few spot light additions over the slings, one pointed up at the dragon and one behind the merlin plastic.

frolic.jpg

Here is a picture of my original that has LEDs and I only added spot lights over the slings. You guys can be the judge which one you think looks darker.

mine.jpg

Also when was the last time you did a full flipper rebuild including the bushings? I know people often overlook this during a rebuild but if you are still using the original or old ones with any cracks or play it can affect the strength despite replacing coil stops, sleeves and pawls.

My friend and 2012 Pinburgh champ Adam Becker had quite the hour long game when he was over a few weeks ago. He had no issues making all shots on demand and bastard battled for the kingdom not once but twice in the same game! My personal best score is around 195 million and before it got destroyed by Adam.

IMG_20150815_225848.jpg

-1
#25 3 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

36 to 36. Does that mean original MMs should be $8k games now since people think they're about the same?

I honestly think the original will eventually selling for between $5-6000
Former routed games???

#26 3 years ago

Delivery time frame is important in your decision, an original can be had now

#27 3 years ago
Quoted from ovfdfireman:

Delivery time frame is important in your decision, an original can be had now

I would argue that there is no difference in time frame between original and remake.

There is not a guaranteed supply of original MM available on any given day. Can you really find an original MM in very good condition RIGHT NOW for $8500? There is waiting involved in getting the right condition at the right price. There's no guarantee that one will come along at the right time and that one will get it before someone else grabs it. With only ~4000 made, the price of original MM (before MMr arrived) reflected this problem. I know that I myself have been keeping an eye out for an original MM for over a year. It's either been the wrong machine, wrong price, or I was too slow.

With the MMr, there is a guaranteed supply - they'll keep making it as long as people buy it. Critics would call it an unknown wait, but I'm not sure that you can say it's any more unknown than waiting for an original.

You could argue that you can get an MM original NOW if you pay up, but you could also get an MMr NOW if you pay up.

#28 3 years ago

I thought you had found one....and were trying to decide one whether to buy it or order an MMR.....

So this is just theoretically speaking.....and not even one there to buy.......and you May never find a "nice one" for the same money, so it's not even a real scenario? I misunderstood, so there is no real answer as there is no real scenario, because in my scenario....the MM is available now. Which is just a viable as your scenario

Now that I have the facts......My opinion changes then, to just order the MMR. Because there is no REAL alternative option at this point......

#29 3 years ago

I will also add...what I already stated....time frame is a factor in the decision. So if you can get an MMR sooner, I would go that route. But this is just an opinion....and you wanted opinions.

#30 3 years ago

After seeing the new video animations for the MMR, this is an easy choice....MMR

#31 3 years ago

As long as the condition is the same, I don't care.

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Are the brains of that thing really stapled to the underside of the playfield?!
That seems like a pretty bad idea. Playfield vibration is enough to knock solidly soldered wires off of coils, can't imagine what it will do to transistors and chips over the years.

the brains (a beaglebone black and a custom host board) are in the backbox. that big PCB reduces wiring by a huge amount though. they slapped a shaker moter directly to it and ran it continuously for two weeks (iirc) and it still worked. that said, sure, the MMR electronics (other than beaglebone) are unproven long-term.

#33 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

As long as the condition is the same, I don't care.

I don't think are are any more NIB original MM lying around that would sell for the same price as MMr.

Hmmm. Anyone know of the last time a legitimate NIB original MM was found?

#34 3 years ago

MM is a blast to play, hadn't played it until 6 months ago and it got me into Pinball. Love the game! To be able to own a brand new version of a 20 year old Pin with the latest updates, Led's, and game changing colorization(that won't be available on MM) is an easy decision. I can understand if someone wanted the exact version that they played so many years ago or was a serious collector in didn't want the latest greatest, but short of that group, I would have to save some serious money to buy an original. To each their own.

#35 3 years ago

The remake does everything the original does and is brand new with better technology. I don't care what argument is made about original being better. The fact is that a 2015 Impala is a better car than a 1993 Impala because tchnology is better. I would rather replace a whole single board every 15 years than try to replace 8-10different boards or various wiring & connectors all the time. MMr makes a lot of sense IMO. If the original MM was so much better than MMr prices would still be $15k for pristine examples. Not so. The market has spoken. When all 1000 orders are filled this year and MMr standards are hitting the street MM will continue to fall. If you have a AFM, CV, BBB, etc now is a good time to sell. They will all be knocked off with better technology.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from Jenk540i:

I really like the idea of an original, and I just made this decision about two months ago. An original one became available at slightly less than the price of a MMR and it was in phenomenal shape, so I bought it. But in all fairness, how can I knock a remake if I've never seen one or played one?

image.jpg

you've got my dream pair of pins right there

11
#37 3 years ago

I'd rather buy a MMr. Originals have been messed with by who knows how many people for nearly 20 years. I don't know of any professional designation for a "certified pinball repairman" so I'll just call it tinkering. I like this community but I don't trust 5 strangers who likely tinkered with an 8k purchase before I bought it vs fresh from factory.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from Pinwhiz70:

MMR LE all the way I have a new one and a very nice original, myself and guests don't even play the old one anymore it looks dark and plays a lot slower and flippers aren't as strong as the MMR

image.jpg

The playfield glass comes off with the key that is hanging on the inside of the door. Clean and wax the PF, toss in some "tasteful" LEDs, and rebuild the flippers.

#39 3 years ago

Doubtful I would purchase either, as $8k pins are simply out of my price range.
MMR has had one good side effect. It seems more MMs are showing up for sale. The debate over New technology versus originality won't be settled anytime soon. Personally, I'm in the new technology camp.
I happen to think there still exists huge demand for both versions and its the hope of many that used MMR s, through continued production and market forces will eventually move the price point to $6000 - $6500. Of course, nobody can predict the future.

#40 3 years ago

My vote is for neither. Too much $$ to spend on a game. $2000 is my limit and I've only hit it once for a Shadow.

15
#41 3 years ago

I looked at this thread and laughed because it may as well be a democrat vs republican debate. Most people are staunchly sided on this issue and many for reasons of personal bias or gain. "MM owners don't want the value of their games to go down" and "MMR owners couldn't afford a MM" and the other usual crap. Whatever.

But I will say this. The original MM, like all other WPC95 games, has a proven service record (commercial, even) of nearly 20 years. I have worked on hundreds of WPC95 pins, and there has NEVER been one that I could not get back to working 100%. I have never had to swap in an aftermarket board. I have never sent a board to a manufacturer, distributor, "service expert", etc. Sure, by this point I suppose I am the expert...but honestly most of those games didn't need much and some didn't need anything, and I was never dependent on someone else to fix them.

The reliability of MMR is arguable. It's unknown. Anyone touting that it will somehow be "better" or more reliable has only bought into a sales pitch. There is no solid proof yet. But if there is an issue, as already evidenced by some threads here on Pinside, you are at the mercy of the manufacturer. The same manufacturer who has already broken the trust of many just by the amount of time it has taken to get their machine. Nobody else is an expert in the setup of MMR. Just like there are no experts on CGC's other coin-op products. That's how they do business...and it's a good business model for them ($ wise, not customer satisfaction wise) to be the only go-to for parts and service, except for when they decide to stop supporting that product. I could say other things here based on my experiences but there is no need...nobody will truly care anyway, because again, their mind has been made up.

Quoted from glasairpilot:

The remake does everything the original does and is brand new with better technology. I don't care what argument is made about original being better. The fact is that a 2015 Impala is a better car than a 1993 Impala because tchnology is better. I would rather replace a whole single board every 15 years than try to replace 8-10different boards or various wiring & connectors all the time. MMr makes a lot of sense IMO. If the original MM was so much better than MMr prices would still be $15k for pristine examples. Not so. The market has spoken. When all 1000 orders are filled this year and MMr standards are hitting the street MM will continue to fall. If you have a AFM, CV, BBB, etc now is a good time to sell. They will all be knocked off with better technology.

Quoted from Hawkeyepin:

I'd rather buy a MMr. Originals have been messed with by who knows how many people for nearly 20 years. I don't know of any professional designation for a "certified pinball repairman" so I'll just call it tinkering. I like this community but I don't trust 5 strangers who likely tinkered with an 8k purchase before I bought it vs fresh from factory.

#42 3 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

The remake does everything the original does and is brand new with better technology. I don't care what argument is made about original being better. The fact is that a 2015 Impala is a better car than a 1993 Impala because tchnology is better.

Thank god you brought a cargument in here! I simply couldn't understand what you are trying to say if you hadn't mentioned cars.

Quoted from glasairpilot:

If you have a AFM, CV, BBB, etc now is a good time to sell. They will all be knocked off with better technology.

Right. I've been hearing that for the past 10 months. While i've been playing the awesome AFM I got 10 months ago for less than the cost of the AFMr that does not, and will not likely ever, exist.

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Thank god you brought a cargument in here! I simply couldn't understand what you are trying to say if you hadn't mentioned cars.

Right. I've been hearing that for the past 10 months. While i've been playing the awesome AFM I got 10 months ago for less than the cost of the AFMr that does not, and will not likely ever, exist.

Why wouldn't AFMr likely ever exist?

#44 3 years ago
Quoted from TVP:

Picking up a remake over an MM original is like picking up a blowup doll over Kate Upton.

that is funny, although I kind of disagree.

#45 3 years ago
Quoted from bkaelin:

that is funny, although I kind of disagree.

Actually, I rather think that simile can be extended further. Do you pick the inferior option that you have a 100% chance of getting or the superior option that you a virtually 0% chance of getting?

I don't mean to imply that MMr is inferior, but if you have that opinion, it's still does not seem like a clear decision.

#46 3 years ago

I've played both and definitely prefer the original, IMO MMr does not play/feel the same.
- Also I don't like the lighting on MMr -> the insert are not the same (much clearer) combined with the LEDs is not good IMO
- MMr is still awesome to have - I just strongly prefer MM

From a collectible standpoint (that many here don't care about) - the original is a far better choice
From a reliability standpoint...
- I would rather have an original because I know the technology and have experience and parts
- for a newbie / non-technical person - they should be better off with a new MMr, but not sure down the road
- if PPS keeps making remakes using the same boards/components, MMr owners should be fine, if they don't its a ???

#47 3 years ago

As an original MM owner that I restored myself I would, for the same money, buy a new re-build assuming build quality is high and parts availability (specifically boards) are readily available.

#48 3 years ago

old MM will never have the color display resolution available on the new one....if you value that sort of thing.

-2
#49 3 years ago
Quoted from nosro:

I don't mean to imply that MMr is inferior

Why not???

Just as I thought. Original MM's dominate again... take Pinwhiz70 and his 26 other bogus accounts out of the picture and its no contest.

#50 3 years ago

Another thought in my buying decision is valuation after purchase. Once the HUO MMR hit the used market, they will price at $1000 less than NIB. However I think that MM currently is still holding at a higher price because MMR have not been fully injected into the marketplace. Those nice MM games at $10,000 stand to drop to at least $8000 if not further. Buying high in a declining market can only result in bigger losses. Unless a very nice and minty MM original can be found currently at $8000 it's an easy choice for MMR.

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