(Topic ID: 81614)

Missing music on CFTBL


By vilant

5 years ago



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  • 54 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by ChrisHibler
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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CPU 001.jpg

There are 54 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 5 years ago

Replaced the fuses and re-seated all the connectors on the audio board hoping that was it. It wasn't Pulled the board out and everything looks good on it. I'm guessing logic chip, but how do I test it to see if it's bad?
Is the base of the chip soldered in and the chip just snaps into the base or is it all one piece?
And finally where can I find a new one?
Any help is appreciated as I want to get my machine working 100% and I don't know what else to check.

#2 5 years ago

Reseat the ribbon cables?

#3 5 years ago

Clay's guides say: "No music? Usually the YM3012 or the YM2151 are defective."

#4 5 years ago

Yea I did that. Did a little research, I think 1 of the sound ROM (not logic chip, lol) may be corrupted. I don't have an eprom programmer though to test and see Looking now at how-to videos and prices on programmers. Although I wonder if I could just buy a new ROM with the data on it already.

#5 5 years ago

Heard of Clay's guides but can never find them, where did you read that? Are YM3012 and 2151 the ROM's ?

#6 5 years ago

Found them on the board. Thanks for the help, now to I need see if I can find new ones or fix the defective ones.

#7 5 years ago

It looks like you've got an Addams Family. The sound boards of that and Creature may be compatible. If they are, you may be able to swap them.

The sound ROMs are probably socketed, meaning you could remove and insert them without soldering. If the sound boards are the same, you could at least verify that the problem is or is not the ROMs.

#8 5 years ago

I eliminated the ribbon cables as the culprit. Took them out of my TAF (which works perfectly) and put them into CFTBL. Still missing audio on CFTBL and TAF works fine. I also pulled all the chips and cleaned up the pins, found this video

only thing different I did was the way I identified the chips and I used 400 grit sandpaper and lightly sanded both sides of the pins.
Does anyone happen to know if I bought new YM3012 and YM2151 (only $14 for both) if they simply plug and play? Or do I need to burn data onto them?

#9 5 years ago

The YM3012 and YM2151 are socketed. You could swap them between TAF and CFTBL sound boards to rule them out, just like the sound ROMs.

Should you need programmed sound ROMs, I'm your man.

#10 5 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

The YM3012 and YM2151 are socketed. You could swap them between TAF and CFTBL sound boards to rule them out, just like the sound ROMs.
Should you need programmed sound ROMs, I'm your man.

Cool thanks. Was worried the data on the smaller chips were unique to each game. I'll try a swap when I get home. If its the sound ROM's I'll pm you.

#11 5 years ago

Was hoping someone could chime in and give me some suggestions. I'm still missing all the music and about half of the sound effects. Things I've eliminated as a culprit; YM 3012 and YM 2151, ribbon cables, fuses, speakers, and I just installed 3 new sound ROM's. There are other chips on the audio board, but I don't know what they do. I'm just baffled because there are about half of the sound effects that work and where the sound is missing (like free pass, the slide, collect combo) the lights and DMD still react to the switches being triggered. Any ideas?

#12 5 years ago

Is it safe to assume the sounds don't work in test mode?

#13 5 years ago

The sounds do work in the test mode, but there's only 9 you can test (at least on mine). There's no way to test the music or all the other sound effects

#14 5 years ago

Not sure what U13 does, but does anyone know if it's interchangeable with TAF?

#15 5 years ago

Not U13 either, actually put my TAF audio board (which works perfectly) into CFTBL and still the same problem, only half the sound effects and no music. I did notice this machine was originally from Europe. Not sure if that has anything to do with it. Does the anyone know if the CPU stores any music or has anything to do with the audio?

#16 5 years ago

I don't think it's reimport status should affect anything, but I don't know.

Did you take a look at the dipswitch settings?

How about giving the game a factory reset?

#17 5 years ago

I did do a factory reset. What dipswitches? Never noticed any before, where are they at and what should they be set to? Attached a pic of my CPU board, you wouldn't happen to know what the U6 L3 chip does would you? Looks like a replacement to me.CPU 001.jpg

#18 5 years ago

Look to the left of the asic... Looks like there is a resistor missing at w13 due to the through hole solder showing. I checked mine and I am running U6 and I have w13 populated. The manual shows it needing populated. Don't quote me but I think it's basically a zero ohm resistor, so a wire would work instead.

#19 5 years ago

Do you have any loose or broken capacitors around the music rom? You can check them with your meter. I assume you have pulled and reseated all of the roms. Does this board work in the Adams family? You might have a loose pin on your ribbon cable. Looks like it is time to pull the schematic.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from ranchdrsn:

Look to the left of the asic... Looks like there is a resistor missing at w13 due to the through hole solder showing. I checked mine and I am running U6 and I have w13 populated. The manual shows it needing populated. Don't quote me but I think it's basically a zero ohm resistor, so a wire would work instead. I would have someone verify that first though.

Wow, good eye. I'll have to find the schematics, I have them for TAF but not CFTBL. I think pinwiki has them I'll have to check. Thanks.

#21 5 years ago

W3 is supposed to be empty. I think you need to refloat the pins on the ribbon cable.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

Do you have any loose or broken capacitors around the music rom? You can check them with your meter. I assume you have pulled and reseated all of the roms. Does this board work in the Adams family? You might have a loose pin on your ribbon cable. Looks like it is time to pull the schematic.

Board looks pretty good as far as I can tell. No cracked or broken solder joints. It's possible I have bad caps but you have to pull them to test or I would have to buy an ESR meter. I think there's close to hundred various caps on the board, that's a lot of desoldering and testing. I put the TAF board in CFTBL and nothing changed, some sound effects no music. I didn't try the CFTBL board in TAF. I ruled out ribbon cables, swapped them on the 2 pins and TAF worked perfectly with both sets. Thing is, I do have sound effects just not all of them and no music at all. Would a few bad caps be responsible? I thought because I had some sound effects it would be a chip or CPU, but I'm just guessing.

#23 5 years ago

Not the cable, the pins...

Also with the caps, you would only be checking that they didn't blow and that current passes through them. If the Adams board has the same symptom, then it is the CPU board that has the issue. Connectors first.

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

W3 is supposed to be empty. I think you need to refloat the pins on the ribbon cable.

W3 is empty, W13 should be populated.

#25 5 years ago

I agree, w13 should be populated. I wonder if someone with the schematic can chime in and confirm that it is part of the sound circuit.

#26 5 years ago

It looks like it may have something to do with country settings or a selection. No jumper = off, perhaps it triggers no music to be played. Either way it should be populated with a zero ohm (or wire jumper) on USA games. Someone took it out, maybe they didn't like the music, lol.

#27 5 years ago

W13 is not neccesary.

U6 is the location of the game ROM on the CPU board, not a software revision.

I've run L-2, L-3 and L-4 between my Creatures. None had this problem. That is a hand labeled chip - from the factory

Next test? TAF CPU in the Creature.

#28 5 years ago

Found a lot of info on IPDB. Had the entire operations manual on PDF http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/588/Bally_1992_Creature_from_the_Black_Lagoon_Full_Operations_Manual.pdf
It gives a breakdown of every component on every board. W13 is a 0 ohm resistor. I'm no rocket scientist but isn't a zero ohm resistor not a resistor but a jumper ,lol. I will solder in a piece of wire tomorrow and let you know what happens.
Donjagra, when you say refloat do you mean heating up the solder on the board to make it liquid again. I thought that was reflow, although I could of heard it wrong. Tried doing that with my Xbox motherboard. Saw a video on how to use your oven. Didn't work out so well, lol. If I do it to the pins, I'll try the heat gun method (but that will be a last resort), unless just touching the underside of each pin with a soldering iron quickly is the preferred method.

#29 5 years ago

I'm telling you, W13 is not necessary. It's removed on both of my Creatures. And I've seen plenty of MPU boards that never had W13 installed.

A zero ohm resistor *is* a jumper. The boards were assembled by a machine. A machine cannot place a wire jumper, but it can place a resistor.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from johnwartjr:

W13 is not neccesary.
U6 is the location of the game ROM on the CPU board, not a software revision.
I've run L-2, L-3 and L-4 between my Creatures. None had this problem. That is a hand labeled chip - from the factory
Next test? TAF CPU in the Creature.

I should pull chips off TAF CPU board and replace with CFTBL chips and install the board in CFTBL right? I can't just swap the boards right?

#31 5 years ago

W13 goes to dip switch 14. Not part of the sound circuit. You may have to reflow the u1, u3, u4 and the ribbon pins. There are different ways to reflow, I like to heat the solder to a liquid and add a little more to make a solid connection. You could also use a de soldering braid and remove the old solder and redo the whole connection. Johnwart would remove and replace, I am lazy and and just heat with a soldering iron and some fresh. I don't usually clean off the flux either...

YouTube is you friend for soldering technique. Don't ever heat gun a pinball circuit board. It will cause more more problems than it solves. We are always talking about using a soldering iron to heat each connection one at a time.

#32 5 years ago

All you need to swap is the game ROM at U6

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from donjagra:

I don't usually clean off the flux either...

Nooooooooo! You *must* remove flux! Kittens die if you don't!

#34 5 years ago

Hhahahahaha.

A new game Rom is a real possibility.

#35 5 years ago

OK, took the CPU and audio board from TAF and installed them in CFTBL and vice versa. TAF works fine with CFTBL boards, same problem with CFTBL. Ideas? Is it that U6 L3 chip?

#36 5 years ago

Please post a YT video of what you are seeing.
It'll be much easier to make suggestions.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#37 5 years ago

OK here's a couple vids I made after the board swap. CFTBL was doing the same thing with its own


And

So, what do you think?

#38 5 years ago

Forgot to mention in the video I swapped the audio boards too.

#39 5 years ago

The sound effects are all wrong.. The "well maybe" should not be played when the ball is first shot and the bowl loop sound is being played at random times also. If the board works in Addams this would point to bad game/sound roms. Johnwart can probably help in obtaining those.

#40 5 years ago

Already bought new sound ROM's.

#41 5 years ago

I sent him new sound ROMs already. He had problems with the original and the new sound ROMs, so I think it's safe to rule out the sound ROMs.

The sound is way off on that game. Missing music, wrong sounds playing at the wrong time.

You've swapped sound boards between TAF and CFTBL too, right?

I wonder if something is corrupting data lines between the CPU and sound board? You've changed the ribbon cables, correct? Maybe the fliptronics or dot controller are shorting data lines somewhere along the way?

#42 5 years ago

Yes, I everything that can be possibly swapped between the 2 boards and games has been done. TAF always works fine and it's always the same problem with CFTBL. By the way CFTBL always did what it is doing, before I did anything. I originally thought it was just a blown fuse before I started shopping it. Figured once was I done, I'd change the fuses and everything would be OK. I'm thinking the game ROM. If it's not that then
Unless the fliptronics or dot matrix boards could be a culprit.

#43 5 years ago

Well, the DMD board can be swapped with the TAF to rule it out.

Fliptronics, negatory.

But, you might be able to pull the ribbons off the fliptronics board in the CFTBL and see if the problem goes away. I think it'd let you start a game... just the flippers wouldn't work

#44 5 years ago

I'd try JWJs suggestion.
Boot the game and get into sound test and let it run.
Remove the ribbon connection that goes from the sound board to the dot controller at the dot controller. Any change?
Next remove the 2nd connector from the four position ribbon at the FlipTronics board. Any change?
This can be done with the game on, generally. If you hear anything lock on, power down.
The display will not work, as you've removed its data source. No biggie.

If these tests don't yield anything, my next suspicion is the sound board RAM. I've seen only one failed sound board RAM, but the results were similar to yours. That RAM isn't tested by the boot diagnostics.

It's not socketed, so use the diode test, comparing between your TAF and Creech boards, looking for differences. You'd like to be more sure before attempting repair or sending the board out. If you haven't acquired good PCB repair skills, send it out. Those boards are pricey and you don't want to hack it. While it's out, replace all the 47uf caps on the board. They are generally dried out and not doing there job.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#45 5 years ago

OK mystery solved. Pulled the ribbon cable off the fliptronics board and everything works perfect. Now to figure out what on the fliptronics board is causing this strange behavior.

#46 5 years ago

Pull it out and have a close look at the back side, any solder globs connecting 2 pins of the ribbon cable?

#47 5 years ago
Quoted from vilant:

OK mystery solved. Pulled the ribbon cable off the fliptronics board and everything works perfect. Now to figure out what on the fliptronics board is causing this strange behavior.

Bingo.
The bus interface ICs are the chief suspects after checking for solder bridges as JWJ suggested.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#48 5 years ago

If you don't want to tackle it yourself, I've got a spare Fliptronics II board and would be willing to do a board exchange for a reasonable fee, assuming your board isn't hacked to death.

#49 5 years ago

Looked over the entire board with a magnifying glass and light. No bridges, broken solder joints or broken traces. The board is original and untouched. I do have soldering skill and I have a spare fliptronics 1 board, although the transistors for the flippers on it are cooked. Are the IC's from fliptronics 1 interchangeable with fliptronics 2? I'll research how to test the IC's and see if I can figure out which one/s is bad. If I can't figure it out. I'll be pm'ing you John about an exchange.

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