(Topic ID: 199731)

Miss-O Project

By SDM0

6 years ago


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  • 22 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by SDM0
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 6 years ago

New here. Trying to learn EMs. Got a Miss-O sitting in storage forever.
Went through and cleaned and adjusted all the switches. Used nu-trol on some parts.
Started it up for the first time.
The on switch starts up the score motor very briefly for some odd reason.
The left flipper turns on the lock relay and the backbox lights go on (that shows "tilt" and ball 1 on) but not the playfield.
It has credits on the wheel.
When I hit the start button the score motor starts up and then this "5000 Relay Latch Trip" starts clicking as the contacts keep hitting. If I push down on the trip the playfield lights come on but the coil is not holding that plate down so it pops back up and the lights go off. But even if I hold that trip down... the clicking still goes on and the playfield lights flash on and off with every click. I thought it might be the coil is dead because it is sort of brown. But even if it was pulling that plate, it would not be functioning right. Why the playfield lights and back box lights don't just come on together I don't know.
I ask here because I can't find a 5000 relay on the schematics and the internet doesn't show a Williams 5000 relay like this (latch trip style).
I have worked on another single player Williams and have learned a lot... but this next project is more challenging. I want to get good at restoring EMs.
Thanks for any help.

relay (resized).JPGrelay (resized).JPG

#2 6 years ago

If it's on the playfield, according to the manual and schematic, that's the 500 relay.

#3 6 years ago

Odd, wonder why it says 5000. Correct it is on the playfield corner next to the left flipper. If it is and with the definition in the manual... it doesn't seem to explain all the stuff that is wrong with it getting started. Hum.

#4 6 years ago

Without a better description of the problem, the best I can tell you is to check the switches that open when the Score wheels are at 0.

#5 6 years ago

Do you know what the source 5A means in the schematic to the 500 shown here?

5A (resized).jpg5A (resized).jpg

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from SDM0:

Do you know what the source 5A means in the schematic to the 500 shown here?

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#7 6 years ago

Ah yes! So my 500 Relay latch keeps firing... part of it goes to the score motor that is running... does that mean the score motor might have something off and it is messing up the relay? or is it that the relay keeps repeating and so the score motor keeps rotating because of that? I am sure I am not explaining this with the correct terminology.

#8 6 years ago

If this is at startup, I have to come back to my post #4.

#9 6 years ago

Wow, you are amazing. You were right. The switches looked pretty much right but I adjusted and now that 500 relay isn't a problem. I hit the left flipper and the playfield lights come on with the backbox (altho it still says tilt and 1 ball instead of game over).

Strangest thing tho is that when I set the score reels to 0000 and I turn the power on... the first score reel flips to number 1 (before I touch any buttons). I doesn't do this every time. But whether it does or doesn't - as soon as I start the game the first score real starts to buzz loudly. At least I think it is the first score real and not the closed 1 pt relay right below it (so loud it is hard to tell). The first score reel does stick a little (even after I cleaned it) but I don't see how that has anything to do with it wanting to flip to 1 right off the bat.

There was a little electrical burning cloud that came out of the backbox while I was at the front the last time. So I am kinda scared to try again.

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#10 6 years ago
Quoted from SDM0:

There was a little electrical burning cloud that came out of the backbox while I was at the front the last time.

You should be able to look at the coils and see the one that's burnt. You probably have a stuck playfield switch.

#11 6 years ago

Well, I went over and adjusted all the 1 pt switches on the playfield - did the same thing. Then I went over ALL the playfield switches and cleaned them and adjusted (giving more gaps than normal to make sure nothing was touching). Same thing basically. It triggers 1 pt when I turn the power on. Sometimes it cycles to reset the first score reel and then gets stuck back on 1 and sometimes it just starts buzzing without trying to reset.

When I turn the power off - it also gives me another 1 pt. So the machine goes dark with 2 pts on the box.

#12 6 years ago
Quoted from SDM0:

When I turn the power off - it also gives me another 1 pt.

So the 1 point Drive Unit (score reel) solenoid is stuck energized, and probably the 1 point relay as well.

Don't leave the machine on for more than a minute or so or you'll burn up one of those coils. In fact, you might disconnect both coils and put a meter or 24 volt light bulbs for a while.

If the 1 point relay is stuck energized, put slips of paper in these switches to diagnose.

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#13 6 years ago

On the bottom...
What is just C closed switch? And the next closed switch I should block is the score motor index A?
I used thin cardboard instead because paper wont stay in. Kinda hard to get the relays on the bottom of the playfield and then the standup switches on the top of the playfield. lol.

If this fixes the problem then I try pulling out the cardboard in different sections to see what part triggers it again?

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from SDM0:

What is just C closed switch? And the next closed switch I should block is the score motor index A?

Not sure what the C means but Index A is the bottom switch on the Index cam of the motor.

Quoted from SDM0:

I used thin cardboard instead because paper wont stay in. Kinda hard to get the relays on the bottom of the playfield and then the standup switches on the top of the playfield. lol.
If this fixes the problem then I try pulling out the cardboard in different sections to see what part triggers it again?

I have good luck folding the paper into a little tube. But yes to everything else.

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#15 6 years ago

Well, I covered it all with cardboard and it did the exact same thing. Kinda depressing. I decided to just observe different switches when I turned the power on. Turns out the game over relay in the very back sparked when I hit the on/off switch. It is getting late tonight so I didn't work on it a bunch... but I did try cleaning and readjusting that relay. I also tried cleaning and readjusting the coin relay. I also pulled the plug from the coin door. Didn't help. But it does seem like the game over relay is part of the issue. Perhaps that is why the tilt bulb is always on when the lights are turned on.

#16 6 years ago

There shouldn't be any power to the playfield features when you power on the machine. Power to the playfield features is controlled by a game over relay switch. Check the game over relay switch with the red wire and blue/yellow/white wire. Make sure the switch is clean and adjusted properly.

For the constantly energized 1 point score reel, check the following switches to see if they are adjusted properly:

No 2 bumper relay switch - yellow wire and green/black wire
Center Jet bumper switch - yellow wire and black/white wire

#17 6 years ago

Hi SDM0 +
some theory --- Gottlieb, Bally and Williams show us the schematics drawn as "a new game has been started (in a two- or four-player-pin: explicitedly a ONE-Player-Game) --- the resetting has been done - the ball is kicked over to the shooter alley - NOW the pin is toggled off / main power line is unplugged". Simple relays pulling loose electricity and let go - steppers and Interlock-Relays (Game-Over-Relay is such an relay) and relays in a bank: They stay "as is".
The manufacturers say "a stepper beeing resetted is in position ZERO" - so after starting a new game the Ball-Count-Unit is in pos-zero and we say "it is in position to play ball-1". I simplify a bit and say "To start a new game after toggling-on: The pin MUST be in state 'Game-Over' means 'Game-Over-Relay MUST be tripped' means the 'armature on the relay NOT HAVING an nylon ladder mounted MUST be moved' ".

"Fault" - the Tilt-Lite lights-up when You toggle-on the pin: This is not a fault --- it is normal as the pin is not played through all the balls (reaching Game Over). You do some tests and You toggle-on and toggle-off and and and - but You do not play through all the balls to reach 'Game-Over' --- in Your situation the Tilt-Lite is entitled to light up --- see the top of my JPG (I assume a "5 balls per game" game) --- encircled orange, on the left: "Switch on Game-Over-Relay" - remember the schematics is drawn (see theory), the Game-Over-Relay is made to trip (see theory) --- but when You toggle-on: This (encircled orange) Switch on Game-Over-Relay is closed. The Ball-Count-Unit has been resetted before You have toggled-off the pin --- the Unit is in pos-ZERO - You toggle-on by now and You see the Tilt-Lite. IF (if, if) this annoys You: In a '3 balls per game' BEFORE toggling-on: Step-up the Ball-Count-Unit THREE steps before toggling-on / In a '5 balls per game' BEFORE toggling-on: step-up the Ball-Count-Unit FIVE steps before toggling-on.

On the bottom of the JPG You see "light-blue" that the Game-Over-Relay is made to trip as the Ball-Count-Unit steps the final step BEYOND 'last ball in play' - and by that reaches 'Game-Over'. Also on the bottom You see "dark-blue" - when You bang a tilt: The Game ENDS as the Relay is made to trip. Also on the bottom "dark-blue" You see the implementation of the manufacturer "to start a new game after toggling-on" (see theory)" --- the "Switch on Lock-Relay" - this switch is adjusted to open very late when the armature is moved --- there is time enough (You toggle-on and press the left flipper-button - the Lock-Relay pulls-in BUT because the mentioned switch is adjusted very late) - there is time enough to make the Game-Over-Relay to trip. SDM0 - in post-15 You wrote about hitting the On / off switch - it should be "when pressing the left flipper button after toggling-on" --- BUT it is normal (see theory) that the pin makes the Game-Over-Relay to trip. Please write in detail about the Game-Over-Relay is made to trip - at WHAT time ?

The problem "1-point-score-drum" starts pulling - stays pulling when You toggle-on. The big question is "DOES the 1-point-RELAY constantly pulls when the fault happens ?". See the middle of my JPG --- the Game-Over-Relay "TRIPPED" opens the "drawn red" switch --- write about the 1-point-RELAY - before starting a game the relay should not pull.
See my "encircled rosa / pink" Switch on 1-point-RELAY - have a look at --- faulty always closed because switchblade is bent or a drop of solder at the solder-lugs ?
Great - ipdb has the manual http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1612/Williams_1969_Miss_O_Manual.pdf on pages "17(ori-15)" onwards: We can see all relays and all switches on the relays - want to check the Game-Over-Relay-Switch as well as the 1-point-RELAY-switch using the manual (?). Greetings Rolf

0Miss-O-Work-01 (resized).jpg0Miss-O-Work-01 (resized).jpg

#18 6 years ago

Thank you everyone. I learn more and more each time I go back to work on Miss O.
I now know the more appropriate term toggle on of off.
Rolf - appreciate you taking the time to provide such detail. As a newbie I will need to spend time processing all your comments.
But I will real quick give some specifics on what is happening.

I set the score drums to 0.
I trip the game over relay so it is not pulling on the switches
I plug in the machine
I toggle on (the transmitter hums)
I press the left flipper, lock relay activates, and the lights come on (backglass shows tilt and ball 1 light - but not game over)
I press the front button to start a game and the game over relay, coin relay and reset relay all activate (the game over relay activates last of the three)
After these relays activate the 1 pt relay activates and stays pulled and the score drum buzzes.
I toggle off while it is buzzing and it triggers one point on the reel.
If I immediately toggle back on - it gives me a second point on the reel (because the game over relay is not tripped)

If I press the front button and start a game when the 1st score reel isn't reset to zero - it starts to reset itself - but then quickly gets stuck half way through and starts to buzz.

I looked over the 1pt relay and I don't see anything wrong. I cleaned it again.

1pt relay (resized).jpg1pt relay (resized).jpg

#19 6 years ago

You'll need to determine what circuits are sending power to the 1 point relay. Even though the playfield features are ready to receive power as soon as you power on the machine (toggle on), all the switches that send power to the 1 point relay should be in the open position. You'll need to double check the following switches:

No 2 bumper relay switch - yellow wire and green/black wire
Bumper switches (4 bumpers) - yellow wire and green/black wire
No 3 bumper relay switch - yellow wire and gray/white wire
Playfield kicker switches (2) - yellow wire and green/black wire
Playfield standup target switches - yellow wire and green/black wire
1 point relay switch - blue/red wire and green/black wire

Make sure the switches are clean and adjusted properly. Also, look at the switch stacks. Check to see if any of the wire ends are touching each other, or if any of the switch stack lugs are touching each other. Manually operate the relays to see if the switches are opening and closing correctly...

#20 6 years ago

Thank you fredsmythson. HowardR suggested something similar. I checked them all and cleaned/adjusted. I then put cardboard in all of them to isolate the issue. However, the problem still occurred with cardboard covering everything linked to the 1 pt relay. I can check them again, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference.

#21 6 years ago

Those switches listed are "gateway" switches and they are the only way power can get to the 1 point relay coil. If you blocked all those switches with pieces of paper or cardboard, power could never get to the 1 point relay coil. If all the switches were blocked and the 1 point relay coil was still being energized, then there would be a short in one of the circuits going to the 1 point relay coil. There might be a short in one of the switch stacks. If you have a multi-meter, you can measure the voltage at the two switch blade lugs. If a switch is open, one of the switch blades would have around 24 volts and the other switch blade would have <2 volts. If both switch blades have 24 volts and the switch is open, then there would be a short in the switch stack.

#22 6 years ago

Thanks everyone! I got the 1pt relay thing fixed. I went to each 1pt switch and cleaned the solder with electronics cleaner. I noticed there were some that were really dirty or covered in goo. I don't know if it was that... or the cardboard moved around... or if it was the few switches I slightly adjusted... but no longer a problem. Such a relief. Now I see many other things that need to be looked at but seems so much more manageable now. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I learned a lot even if it was totally annoying lol.

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