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» Miss-O A, B, C, D and extra ball question

(Topic ID: 241192)

Miss-O A, B, C, D and extra ball question

By dgAmpGuy

4 years ago

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11 posts
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Latest reply 4 years ago by dgAmpGuy
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Miss-O Williams, 1969

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#1 4 years ago

???

I am working on a 1969 Williams Miss-O and I’m trying to figure out why the “A”, “B”, “C”, “D” lights don’t reset between games. I am in 3 ball mode and do have the schematic. Not sure if it’s related, but the extra ball feature doesn’t seem to work correctly either. The extra ball relay comes on but it drops out before the ball reaches the out hole.

This is not the first pinball machine I’ve worked on, but this detail has me stumped. The manual doesn’t go to this level of depth.

Any help on how the game should work is appreciated. Feel free to ding me if I’ve screwed up any of the forum guidelines I’m comfortable soldering, using test tools, following schematics, and jumpering.

Thanks!

Dave

#2 4 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

From IPDB: This is a replay game that also has an extra ball feature which cannot be disabled, awarding one extra ball per ball in play, if earned. To qualify for extra ball, making A-B-C-D targets light the correspondingly lettered bumpers at top of playfield. Lighting all four A-B-C-D bumpers light the two horseshoe inserts, qualifying the horseshoe lane rollover button (which does not light) to award the extra ball. The schematic indicates that flashing bulbs are to be used for the horseshoe inserts. A ball rolling over the horseshoe lane button at this point will turn off the flashing horseshoe inserts and quietly award the extra ball, with no knocker sound. There are no inserts or text on the playfield or backglass to indicate the extra ball has been awarded, thus this event may go unnoticed by an uninformed player. Once the current ball in play reaches the outhole, the ball counter does not increment, the ball is served again to the shooter lane, and the A-B-C-D bumpers turn off to allow a new extra ball to be earned.

#3 4 years ago

???

dgAmpGuy

Pinside+ Frequent

5y 54,400 568 37

Yes, I read that too. I tested that by trigerring A, B, C, D, and rolling the ball through the horseshoe, lighting the 2 horseshoe lights. When the ball exits one of the scoring outlines, the horseshoe lights go off before the ball hits the out hole and the ball count increments. Thus the mystery

#4 4 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Have you checked the pertinent switches on these relays?

Capture (resized).pngCapture1 (resized).PNG

#5 4 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

Capture2 (resized).PNG

#6 4 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi dgAmpGuy
I do not know the pin. Here https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1612 I made me an copy of the schematics. Lets look at a fully running Miss-O - see the top of the JPG - we make the A-, B-, C-, D-Relay pulling - they stay pulling, do actuate all its switches --- the invitation lamps (You can make an Extraball) are lit. See on the bottom of the JPG - the Ball rolls through the horseshoe, this is worth 500 points --- the 500-Relay pulls-in - the Extraball-Relay starts pulling, actuates all its switches so "encircled brown switch" (on the bottom of the JPG) closes - the Extraball-Relay stays pulling on its own - until the "Trough Switch" opens and so cuts Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Extraball-Relay. Look on top of the JPG - the pulling Extraball-Relay opens the switch (encircled brown) - the invitation lights turn off.
The pulling A-, B-, C-, D-Relay stay pulling - they quit pulling when the Ball is lost (Outhole-Relay pulls-in (encircled orange switch opens) AND we have made an Extraball (encircled orange switch is open). Loosing a ball NOT having made an Extraball does NOT make the A B C D relays to quit pulling. See "my light blue wiring in" the JPG (pin is set for 5 balls) - the A B C D relays quit pulling when we reach Game-Over. See "my dark blue wiring" - when the pin is set to 3 balls: Reaching Game-Over does not make the A B C D relay to quit pulling (the Switch on the Game-Over-Relay is bypassed).

Your pin has an fault: The Extraball-Relay pulling-in does NOT establish Self-Hold-Circuitry. You must check "my brown wiring on the bottom of the JPG" --- see the manual for location of the switch on the Extraball-Relay (it is switch A) - the "Trough Switch" - hmm, see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=31727 under the apron, when the ball is kicked over to the shooter alley: The ball rolls over a switch - the Trough switch. Unfortunately I do not see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1612&picno=16833 this switch (upper right corner in the ipdb-picture) --- You may have to take away the apron and look there. Greetings Rolf

0Miss-O-Work-02 (resized).jpg

#7 4 years ago

MTO

hazmat7719

Pinside+ Addict

Arbutus, MD

5y 66,150 304 18 1

I will have to look at that circuit in my machine when I start to get it working. My machine is in need of attention. Please let me know if you need any internal pictures.

#8 4 years ago

???

dgAmpGuy

Pinside+ Frequent

5y 54,400 568 37

Thanks to all for digging into this and taking the time to post annotated diagrams.

I am still working through checking the switch contacts, mostly because my horseshoe is not consistently tallying the 500 points on the score reel. That looks straightforward.

Between what I studied before and your pointers, I’m starting to formulate a theory that this is the expected behavior.

1. Rolf pointed out that the A, B, C, D reset handling is different for 3 vs 5 ball games. Since game over isn’t going to drop power, they aren’t going to reset. I guess this is like a slot machine where you’ll benefit from the previous guys effort.

2. The game manual doesn’t describe the extra ball, only the IPDB entry. There is no physical trough switch on the path from the out hole to the shooter lane. I think the schematic is referring to all of the scoring lanes as trough switches. I say this because they all toggle the 100 point relay which disengages the extra ball via switch 2B, as described in the manual. I have done a test to see that if the ball sneaks out to the outhole (say under a flipper) it will give you the extra ball and clear a,b,c,d.

I am going to verify the rest of the switches that were mentioned to make sure I didn’t miss anything. Worst case, this info might help another pinsider in the future.

#9 4 years ago

???

dgAmpGuy

Pinside+ Frequent

5y 54,400 568 37

500 point issue fixed. Needed an adjustment of the EOS switch on the 100 point unit.

I also solved the mystery of my point #2 above. Looks like operator error on my part. The ball index relay should not be clearing my extra ball relay because it already should have come on when the ball hits one of the 100 point rollovers at the top of the Playfield. I was triggering everything by hand and neglected to follow the path of the ball. Once I did this correctly, tagged a,b,c,d and went through the horseshoe, I was able to successfully get an extra ball no matter how I got to the outhole.

So I am good. Thanks again for all the input. Hope to return the favor.

Dave

#10 4 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Dave
great - You could fix the faults. Want to try an alteration of the pins logic "turning-off the A-, B-, C-, D-stuff" ?: See on the bottom of the JPG in post-6, encircled orange switch on Extraball-Relay --- when You manipulate this switch to be open ALL the time (sneaking-in a stripe of paper inbetween the contact-points of the switch): Every new ball given starts with unlit A B C D.

I guess we have encountered a fault in the schematics --- see on the bottom of the JPG in post-6 - Your pin does not have an Trough switch. Maybe Your pin is wired like "Pat Hand 1975" - see the JPG here - "green": FIRST time making points on a new ball given makes the Extraball-Relay to quit pulling (the Ball-Index-Relay has been made non-pulling when the new ball was kicked over to the shooter alley, switch on Ball-Index-Relay is open) - "blue": second time making points then makes the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in again.
My Fun Fest (1973) is wired like Pat Hand. Earlyer pins were wired different: My Jolly Roger has a "Roll-Over bent wire switch in the launching lane" see here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1314&picno=1244 on the launching lane almost on the top of the picture - the bent wire when the ball rolls over opens a switch mounted underneath the playfield to cut Self-Hold-Circuitry of the Extraball-Relay.
And my Shangri La has another solution - here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2110&picno=20169&zoom=1 on the entrance-door to the playfield --- when the lid on the entrance door is lifted by the entering ball: A thin steel-rod is lifted and so a switch mounted underneath the playfield opens. Greetings Rolf

0Pat-Hand-Work-02 (resized).jpg

#11 4 years ago

???

dgAmpGuy

Pinside+ Frequent

5y 54,400 568 37

Thanks Rolf.

Looks like they had a bunch of different methods to accomplish the extra ball clearing. I think if I was going to make a modification, I’d change the wire that goes from the a,b,c,d relays to the 3/5 ball plug so that it’s always in 5 ball mode. Fortunately, my wife an I prefer it in 5 ball mode, so it all works out. This machine had a lot of glitches, so I wanted to make sure it was working as designed before I even thought about moving the Jones plug.

At this point I’m down to much more minor things like getting a credit on a match and deciding if the pop bumpers are too weak.

Thanks,
Dave

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