(Topic ID: 193304)

Mini Pool targets

By Bee-barf

6 years ago


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  • 53 posts
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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by DropTarget
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Mini Pool 4&9-5&10 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 2&7-3&8 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 1&6-ALL (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 9-10 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 7-8 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 5-6 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 3-4 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 1-2 (resized).jpg
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There are 53 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 years ago

On my Gottlieb Mini Pool. The arrow targets reward either 3000 points or 500 points depending on the lit arrow. The 3000 point score is consistant, but the 500 point targets, sometimes 200, 300 points and struggles. I have cleaned the one hundred's score reels and checked points. Where can I look next? Thanks for your help.

#2 6 years ago

Is the EOS switch on the 100s reel missing or broken?

#3 6 years ago

I saw this on a So76, the EoS switch, the pad was loose on finger and it was not doing reliable 500 pt scoring...

#4 6 years ago

Sounds like a switch on the motor, less likely a switch on the 500 Point relay if there is one. I'd have to see the schematic to be more specific.

#5 6 years ago

I did find a loose rivet on the fiber wheel of the " indicated value unit" and soldered it. Adjusted 2 contacts on motor 1b, also adjusted 2 contacts on the front targets. Seems to be scoring 500 points now. Still a little slow. The 100 points score reel on this game is used alot, wondering if something else could make scoring sluggish? Thanks for all your help.

#6 6 years ago

The sluggish/slow symptom needs a bit more explication. How well does 100-point scoring work under any circumstance, such as when one of the target sequences is hit? Can you reproduce this sluggishness by manually closing the sequence target switches in rapid succession?

#7 6 years ago

Great idea! I will check other scoring on the machine that awards 100 points. Thanks, ain't nothing like successful problem solving.

#8 6 years ago

O.K. when I start up a new game, the hundreds score reel gets hung up on 200, and the motor keeps on running.Probably no relation to prior situation.

#9 6 years ago

this is the reset sequence? if it is there is a contact on the reel closed at anything but zero that gets pulsed to drive the reel to zero. check to see if its closing

#10 6 years ago

After much frustration, I think I have succeeded in getting this game back. Pretty sure it was the 100 score reel contacts. But also it was a good time to clean and check all target switches and bulbs.Thanks for all helpful suggestions and inspirations.

6 months later
#11 6 years ago

Hi All,

I have a different scoring issue. Maybe the group can help me figure it out.

Sometimes the lit targets score 500pts and the unlit ones score 3000pts. Also I don't know if they are stepping in the correct sequence.

I also think that the last arrow on the center bank lights when the first arrow should be lit and sometimes the last arrow lights along with the 3rd (or is it 4th) arrow.

Sounds like crossed wires somewhere, but everything looks ok to me.

I don't have a schematic yet.

-W

#12 6 years ago

It's been awhile since I went through the Mini Pool, but I'm
sure that the 500/3,000 point for each target is controlled
by each numbers relay that's in the Relay Bank which is
located on the bottom side of playfield toward the front. I'm
pretty sure it's make/break switches in the relays that'll need
to be checked and adjusted..
When a lit numbered target is hit, that number relay (in
the Relay Bank) energizes, and transfers a circuit to a
Step-Up-Unit disc and when that Step-Up-Unit disc's wiper is in
that numbers circuitry, the yellow arrow is lit, and through
the make/break switch in that numbered relay, it scores
3,000 points. You'll want to make sure that the spring loaded
wipers (snowshoes), in that wiper disc is squarely on its
wiper board's rivets..
If something doesn't quite add up while you're checking,
I'll crack open the Mini Pool and recheck..

#13 6 years ago

Thanks, I've already check the relays, wiper disk and rivets , I'll go back and check again.

2 weeks later
#14 6 years ago

Everything "looks" correct, yet sometimes the targets score 500 when they should be 3000, and vice a versa.

and this can't be correct.....

IMG_1732 (resized).jpgIMG_1732 (resized).jpg

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'd have to see the schematic

#16 6 years ago

Me too!

I'll probably order one tomorrow.

#17 6 years ago

The full schematic isn't so clear, but what you can see from the close up shots is:
A-500 point relay, B-3,000 point relay. When the numbered target relays are in the reset
position, a set of contacts are open in each numbered relay that prevents the circuit
to travel to the 3,000 Point Relay. That circuit travels through a NC set of contacts in the
3,000 Point Relay and continues to the 500 Point Relay. When a numbered relay is energized,
it closes a set of contacts that completes a circuit to the Indicated Value Unit. When the Indicated
Value Unit's wiper is on that circuit, it lights that Bulls Eye target's yellow arerow, and
completes the circuit to the 3,000 Point Relay when that Bulls Eye target is hit.
The 500 Point Relay is still in that circuit, but once the 3,000 Point Relay energizes, it opens
the set of contacts that are tied into the 500 point Relay to prevent the 500 Point Relay to
also energize..
So not only is it important to check the contacts in each numbered relay, but also important
that the set of NC contacts in the 3,000 Point Relay are making, but yet open as soon as the
3,000 point Relay is energizing.
In my other post, I was pretty close without checking the schematic, but no stokey..
BTW, the Bulls Eye yellow arrows circuitry must also be in each numbered relay then
travels to the Indicated Value Unit. If you need a shot of that portion (or any other portion)
of the schematic, let me know..

IMG_1142 (resized).JPGIMG_1142 (resized).JPG

IMG_1145 (resized).JPGIMG_1145 (resized).JPG

IMG_1144 (resized).JPGIMG_1144 (resized).JPG

#18 6 years ago

Thank you.
stay tuned........

#19 6 years ago

So. I'm starting with the lit arrows that score 500 when they should score 3000. I'll get to the other way later.

It seems that the lit arrows correlate to the number 5,6 & 7 relays on the reset bank. But it appears that the n.o. switches (on the left side of the stack when viewed from the front) do indeed close when the relay is energized. I don't see any broken wires. I'll try jumping the switch, but am not very hopeful.

Nope...... I jumped the switches, and no change.

Hard to see in the schematic, but does it look like this numbers go through score motor switch 1C?

#20 6 years ago

Why does it appear that the third, fifth, and sixth arrows of the horizontal row of targets in your photo appear to be semi-illuminated? Maybe that's part of your problem. Misadjusted wiper disc maybe?

#21 6 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Why does it appear that the third, fifth, and sixth arrows of the horizontal row of targets in your photo appear to be semi-illuminated? Maybe that's part of your problem. Misadjusted wiper disc maybe?

or the 55's I put in! I think it's just bleed through. I checked the wipers and the other lamps are out.

#22 6 years ago

In the state that your machine is in, in the photo,
the left bulls eye target should be lit also. After all
the numbers are made, the Pop Bumper lights, as
it does, and then there should always be 3 bulls eye
arrows lit. The more numbered balls made, the more
arrows have a chance to get lit. All targets made, 3
should be lit.
When you went through the Indicated Value Unit,
had you made certain that those sprig loaded wipers
weren't a little sticky. When it's off, I like putting a
couple of drops of light weight oil in each of the
snowshoe's (spring loaded wiper's) holes, then
move them in and out to insure they're free.
If the 3,000 Point Relay doesn't energize, it will
automatically score 500 points. But if it's scoring
3,000 points when it's suppose to be scoring 500,
that's odd.. I think what may be happening is that it's
scoring 3,000 points for an unlit bulls eye arrow
target, but that arrow is suppose to be lit..
7:00. Have to fly. I'll check back..

#23 6 years ago

Other odd symptoms....

The only time that those two arrows light at the same time (from what I can tell), is when the 5 and 10 target relays are tripped at the same time.

Let me rephrase that. If the 5 and 10 targets are hit, one arrows lights, and as the indicator disc sequences, those two arrows light at the same time.

#24 6 years ago

Yes, I think that could be the way it should be.
Tomorrow I'll see about checking on what number hit
target, is responsible to light which arrow.
But only one spot on the Indicator Value Unit could
light more than one arrow, as long as those numbers for
that spot was hit..
Okay, I just checked the schematics. Each, #1,2,3,4, and 5
Relays light two arrows. So at start, if the #1 Ball is
hit, two arrows should light. Same with the #2,3,4, and 5
balls. The #6,7,8,9, and 10 balls light 1 arrow each. (Of course
this is when the Indicated Value Unit wiper is on that certain
number's circuitry on the wiper board. So after all balls have
been hit, I'd say through two different sets of spring loaded
wipers, two lights are lit from the #1 Relay, while one is lit
at the same time through the #6 Relay. Same with #2 and #7,
#3 - #8, 4 - 9, and two lights through #5, while one is lit
through #10. So throughout the play of the game, one,
two, or three lights could be lit at the same time.
But anyways, tomorrow I'll check what number relay, lights
which arrow(s)..

#25 6 years ago

Thanks,

I'l check it tomorrow.

1-5 light the side arrows (1 on each side for a total of 2). while 6-10 light the center arrows. (i think)

#26 6 years ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

1-5 light the side arrows (1 on each side for a total of 2). while 6-10 light the center arrows. (i think)

That does sound as though it could be right, but remember, when all targets have been hit (pop bumper and wows are lit),
when the Indicator Value Unit is in a certain position, three of the center lights are lit. Two from either the 1 - 5, and
one from either the 6 - 10. It may be later in the morning, but I'll check tomorrow on what # relays correspond to
what Bulls Eye's yellow arrows..

#27 6 years ago

Thanks

#28 6 years ago

Okay, I gave it a check, and here are the numbered relays that correspond
to it's bulls eye arrows..
Also, after all targets have been hit, the two numbers that light together
when the Indicator Value Unit's wiper is on that circuit are: 1 and 6
2 and 7
3 and 8
4 and 9
5 and 10

IMG_1150 (resized).JPGIMG_1150 (resized).JPG

#29 6 years ago

Here are my results

Mini Pool 1-2 (resized).jpgMini Pool 1-2 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 3-4 (resized).jpgMini Pool 3-4 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 5-6 (resized).jpgMini Pool 5-6 (resized).jpg
ignore the "3000" on #3, that was a typo
Mini Pool 7-8 (resized).jpgMini Pool 7-8 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 9-10 (resized).jpgMini Pool 9-10 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 1&6-ALL (resized).jpgMini Pool 1&6-ALL (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 2&7-3&8 (resized).jpgMini Pool 2&7-3&8 (resized).jpg
Mini Pool 4&9-5&10 (resized).jpgMini Pool 4&9-5&10 (resized).jpg

#30 6 years ago

If the #3s are lit, and one scores 3,000 points, and the other 500, I'd carefully check
the target switches with the one that scores only the 500 points..

#31 6 years ago

Target switches are fine.

Do you see on the schematic where the circuit is split to the two targets? The #3 relay is pulled in, the N.O.'s close and the N.C open.

I would think the target's are in parallel. Why would one target work and the other not? I'm seeing the same thing on the 2's and 5's.

I thought maybe something to do with the Jones plug on the indicator value unit, but all the connections seem ok there as well.

#32 6 years ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

The #3 relay is pulled in, the N.O.'s close and the N.C open.

I'm not sure what you're saying here.
When a target is hit, all three switches should touch. The 500 Point Relay energizes, and what keeps
the 3,000 Point Relay from energizing is an open set of contacts in that number's relay if that relay
hasn't been energized..
On the Indicated Value Unit, if one #3 Bulls Eye target scores 3,000 points, the other should. They're
both fed through the same Indicated Value Unit's circuit which supports that the problem is in the
individual Bulls Eye target switches that are scoring 500 points, when it should be scoring 3,000
From the Bulls Eye Target three switches, the center switch's circuitry goes to the 3,000 Point Relay. If
one number is scoring 3,000 points, and the other of the same number is scoring 500 points, it must
be the wire off of the center switch. It can't be that the switch needs cleaning, because the circuit from
the front switch, is going through the center switch, to give the rear switch the current to energize
the 500 Point Relay. If a Bulls Eye target is scoring 500 points when it suppose to be scoring 3,000,
I would carefully check the wiring off of that target's center switch..

#33 6 years ago

There's only one switch on the targets

#34 6 years ago

Ok, getting close. yes, it must be in the target.

I find that when the arrow is lit, and I jump the target blade to the last blade (ground?) it scores 3000pts, as it should. But if I just close the switches, as if a ball were hitting the target, it scores 500pts. I've cleaned and aligned the contacts. Now scratching my head.

#35 6 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

I'm not sure what you're saying here.

I meant when the #3 relay on the reset back is tripped, all the switches act correctly, opening the #3 lamp circuit and closing the arrow light and 3000pt circuit.

#36 6 years ago
Quoted from DropTarget:

There's only one switch on the targets

Are you talking about the ball targets?
I'm talking about the Bulls Eye yellow arrow targets. The schematics shows three switches,
and I can understand how that would work..
I'll check The Mini Pool tomorrow morning. At least for now, it sounds
that your game is playable..
Okay, I just read your last post.
On the #3 Bulls Eye target when the arrows are lit, one scores 3,000 as it should, but
the other scores 500
If you jumper the center switch from one, to the other one's center switch, both has to score
the same value. Give it a try. I think it's a cut wire someplace along the line of the center
switch of the Bulls Eye yellow arrow target that's scoring 500 instead of 3,000..

#37 6 years ago
Quoted from Mopar:

Are you talking about the ball targets?

No,

I was talking about the bullseye targets, but I was mistaken and deleted that post (or so I thought).

If you jumper the center switch from one, to the other one's center switch, both has to score
the same value. Give it a try. I think it's a cut wire someplace along the line of the center
switch of the Bulls Eye yellow arrow target that's scoring 500 instead of 3,000..

I tried that yesterday, I was surprised to see that it did not work.

#38 6 years ago

You jumped the two center Bulls Eye target switches that when energized, the #3 Relay
lights its yellow arrows, and one scored 3,000, and the other 500? How can that be? I'm
unexplainingly surprised! Unless the hot wire on the one isn't hot, but that can't be the
case because it's able to score 500 points, so it has to energize the 3,000 Point Relay.
You sure that jumper has continuity from one end to the other?
Maybe you can give it another try tomorrow..

#39 6 years ago

I'm confused too

#40 6 years ago

the schematic shows 3 switches? There are only two (3 blades) Unless I'm looking at it wrong.

....to be continued.

#41 6 years ago

I have a couple of other things going on in the morning, but I'll check the Mini Pool..
We'll get her..

#42 6 years ago

Update:

What a PITA!

I wasn't getting continuity between the blades on several bullseye target switch stacks when the switch was closed, so I removed a stack, and found that the contacts on the target's blade weren't making good contact with the blade itself. I compressed the rivets on those stacks and now those switches work. There were switches that scored correctly yesterday, that weren't scoring correctly today, I fixed those as well. I'll go over all of the bullseye targets at some point.

HOWEVER....they score 5000 points now! Maybe they always did and I didn't notice, or maybe I messed something up with my fat fingers, I'll check the gaps on the 3000pt and the thousand's relays.

The 1000 pt bell rings 3 times as it should, but then the score reel moves 2 more steps.

and some of the unlit bullseye targets are scoring 1,200! (I'll deal with that one later). This machine has been a mess since I got it 10 years ago, but trying to make it right.

OMG! more scoring issues...... Now, when the 500pt relay pulls in, the thousands reel moves 5 times as well, but never rolls over to 10,000.

WTF?

Still wanna help? lol

#43 6 years ago

Yea, tightening those switch stack screws right from the start isn't a bad
idea. So when the 500 point relay pulls in, the 3,000 point relay doesn't
energize, but it still scores 5,000, right? Is the 1,000 Point Relay energizing along
with the 100 Point Relay?
I think maybe you need "Drop Target" machines. Something tells me you'll have
better luck..

#44 6 years ago

It wasn't the switch stack screws, it was the contact on the blade.

I'll check the other relays in a bit.

#45 6 years ago

Okay, and you'll want to make sure that the 100s score reel's set of 9th position
switches aren't touching all the time. They only should make when the 100s score
reel is on 9.
Also, you'll want to check that the score motor's 2B set of contacts (orange-white/
red-white wires) are breaking when they should. Those contacts break the 500 Point
Relay after 500 points have been scored..
It's also possible that the 500 Point Relay's armature plate is magnetized..

#46 6 years ago

Mopar,

Thanks for all the help. The game is now scoring 95% correctly. One of the bullseye targets is scoring 500 again, I'll double check the contact. Now I need to find out why some targets score 3000 when they should be 500. I'm guessing it's the associated numbers relay on the reset bank. I'll look at that tomorrow.

#47 6 years ago

I'm glad to hear things are shaping up..
Yes, I would also say that contacts in some of the number relays are making when they should be
open, at reset, thus scoring 3,000 instead of 500.
And the one scoring 500 when it should score 3,000. An open contact when its relay is energized,
but should be closed/cleaned.. Let us know what you find out..

#48 6 years ago

Now to figure out why the targets sometimes score 1,200. 500pt relay pulls in, but releases after just 200pts, then 3000 pt relay pulls in for 1,000 more!

#49 6 years ago

Wayne, you get your schematics? I think I sent them out Thursday. If not, you should have them
tomorrow. Comes out crisper than the originals, so I had a 2nd made..
So the 500 Point Relay is releasing before it should. Maybe the set of contacts in the B (3,000
Point Relay) not making good contact, or does the B Relay (strangely) energize instantly before
the A Relay releases?
Score Motor 2B is what breaks the A Relay's current after 500 points (suppose to be) scored. Might
want to check 2B for good contact..

#50 6 years ago

Thanks,

I haven't received them yet. Will keep you posted. It only scores like that on occasion. the same target will score 500 at times. I checked 2B, but will check again.

Did you get my BG pics?

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