Exactly. I have seen no concrete proof with my own eyes nor have I read and scientific studies that prove or disprove the "millwax theroy". That being said when 95% of the community agree its bad stuff I tend to take caution. Unless you have some hardcore loyalty to millwax or don't mind being the guy that finally proves its bad stuff(for pins) why risk it? I have never used the stuff but I can only imagine it's like a miracle potion for the PF when people are willing to take unnecessary risks to use it. That being said I have a hard time believing any damage being done happens at a rate fast enough for any of us to see in our lifetime. There is one provable problem with millwax. The problems it causes applying CC after its use. Ask any autobody guy and he will tell you he has seen it with his own eyes. That alone is enough for me.

I've used Millwax to do an inital cleaning on a tear down on older pins or pins that have never been shopped or cleaned. On extremely dirty pins that have "caked" on dirt I've gone as far as using Bletch White in small amounts with a paint brush followed by water. It's the only way. I have a page on my site for a Getaway2 we did. I follow up with a wax then buff to a shine.

It's supposed to be a wax an cleaner but after using it I would definitely say more cleaner than anything. I dont know if it's necessary on a NIB pin but it's been a time saver on unshopped dirty pins.

To quote Clay from RGP on what is in Millwax -

<Quote>
Millwax is a great product. BUT just remember, it is NOT
a wax (regardless of what the name indicates!).

Millwax is a playfield CLEANER. it is NOT a wax! Millwax
is a solvent based version of Novus2. For that reason,
Novus2 is more "inert". But Millwax is still a good
product for CLEANING. There may be claims that there
is wax in millwax, but believe me, if there is any wax
in there, it's such a small amount, it makes no difference!

Millwax uses a petrolum disolute (did i spell that right?)
as a solvent. For this reason, some people don't like
millwax. It's probably not a bad thing, but Novus2 is
just that much safer. For this reason, i recommend Novus2
over Millwax. Williams pinball also recommends Novus2
(over ANY other product) on their 1990 and later diamond
plate games.

<End quote>

Thanks,
Mike

www.HabosArcade.com

A Must Read about Millwax from ( The CEO ) of Millwax .. I'm Sure he's eYe-ball-n Pinside now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Hello Mark,

Please forgive me for the delay in responding to your inquiry, it came at a time when I was in the process of negotiating all the myriad details of the sale of the plastic injection molding portion of my business and arranging to move numerous large (one a multi-ton) pieces of equipment out of our shop, as well as dealing with my mother's serious injuries, and then trying to find an empty nursing home bed for her while she recovers fully. It has been a trying couple of weeks. I appreciate your understanding.

Thank you for contacting me with your concerns about Mill Wax. Let me begin by telling you that I have been collecting pinballs for somewhere around 23 years now, hundreds of different games over the years. In that time there probably isn't a playfield cleaning technique or product that I haven't tried, and I still find Mill Wax to be my preferred product of choice. Obviously I am a little biased, as the owner of the company, but it ultimately comes down to performance and Mill Wax gets the job done right, quickly and easily.

Based on what you read on the internet, you seemed fearful that you had ruined your playfield; buying in to the hysteria promulgated primarily by one man who seems to have developed a real hatred for our product and has taken it upon himself to bad mouth Mill Wax at every opportunity. While I can appreciate this individual's contributions to the pinball world and his love of the hobby, his continual disparaging comments and attempts to mislead the pinball community about Mill Wax really needs to stop.

It really all comes down to a matter of personal preference. Some people like a lot of salt on their food, some a little, and some none at all. I generally prefer a lot of salt, but I harbor no ill will towards those with a different preference. I personally own and drive a Ford, but I haven't made it my life's work to bad mouth Chevys, Dodges or any other vehicle; it's simply a matter of preference. I get great results using Mill Wax to clean my playfields, it has made my life a lot easier, and I feel good knowing that I have taken the necessary steps to protect my valuable investments. That's why I bought the company, and that’s why I personally use it on every machine I own.

Tens of thousands of satisfied customers agree, using Mill Wax to clean and protect games of every vintage, from the earliest pin and ball games, to the very latest Stern titles. People prefer Mill Wax over other products because it works, but not everyone agrees. It is unfortunate that a few individuals have taken to try and destroy the reputation of a great product like Mill Wax. If they have a problem with our product, they should contact me directly, or simply use the product they prefer, although I must caution you, I see a lot of strange ideas about playfield maintenance on the internet. As for myself, I will stick with a proven performer like Mill Wax.

Mill Wax has been on the market since 1976, and continues to be the number one choice for both the restoration and routine maintenance of pinball playfields. Used properly, it does a fantastic job of cleaning dirt, carbon, grunge and rubber ring debris from the playfield and laying down a protective coating that helps prevent wear and preserve the graphics. And by the way, this additional piece of advice: don't forget to spend a few bucks and replace the ball(s) from time to time, a rusty, pitted ball will quickly wear out a pinball playfield in a way that no brand of product can protect against.

Yes, Mill Wax does contain a silicon component, and that can be a problem for someone seeking to clear coat their playfield, IF, they haven't properly cleaned and prepared the surface. To make an extreme analogy, you wouldn't prep your car for painting by simply taking a broom to it and sweeping off the dirt. I'm no auto body man, but I do know that there are numerous cleaning, sanding , wiping steps necessary to meticulously prepare a car for painting, which take a lot of time to properly perform in order to get the best results.

The preparation of a pinball playfield is much the same, requiring it to be rigorously cleaned and prepared, no matter what type of wax or cleaning product was used on it in the past. Even a new machine, straight from the factory without any playfield product ever having been used, requires careful preparation and cleaning prior to clear coating. Like most things in life, if you take the time to do good work and carefully prepare, you will get good results, and having used Mill Wax on a playfield is no obstacle to getting those good results if one takes the time to properly clean and prepare the surface in accordance with the clear coat manufacturer's instructions. You may wish to consult with the clear coat manufacturer for specifics about their products and how to get the best results.

I sincerely hope that you won't let the fear mongering and flames of a few on the internet outweigh the positive results of tens of thousands of satisfied Mill Wax customers around the world. You can continue to use Mill Wax with the confidence that you are protecting and preserving your investment in your pinball.

Thank you very much,

John F. Buegel, Pres

Mill Amusement, LLC

I have used Millwax since it first came out on 100's of games with no problems. I have tried them all and always return to Millwax. Steve Young recommends it. I do not understand all of the controversy.

Wow! Fantastic response! I'll hang my hat on this guys word.

Still though - he doesn't talk about using Millwax ON a clearcoat. Is that acceptable? Is using Millwax on a CC damaging the CC?

You will hang your hat on the word of the guy that owns the company, rather than that of a HUGE percentage of the pinball community?

I am SHOCKED that the owner of the company would support the use of his own product. Wow. Who would have thought.

Look...he gave a very nice response. I give him credit for that and not turning to bashing. Very professional. But the fact remains that there is doubt. So why...whywhywhy would you take that chance??? Novus and carnuba are cheap, safe, and effective. So why would you possibly want to take the word of the owner of a company that produces a questionable product and continue to use it? Even if it turns out to be completely safe...why even bother with the risk? *mind boggled*

I'm done with this subject. It's your machine. If you want to risk it, go for it. But if something gets ruined, do not say you weren't warned.

Mill wax is 36 years old ? Great in it's day. We keep learning better ways to care for our games. Especially since playfield finishes have changed since then.

Or I could go back another 20 years. I was standing on a stool using water and Comet cleanser. Heck that worked great then, no reason not to use it now. Screw all these new fangled ideas.

If I was the owner of Millwax, I'd be thinking now would be a great time to introduce Millwax 2 which addresses concerns of current collectors.

LTG

I own a bottle, but honestly just can't make myself use it. I've heard so many negative things about it, and I own so many other cleaners, polishers, and waxes that are theoretically safer and do just as good or a better job. As far as I'm concerned, Wildcat is a throwaway and Millwax is a last resort on a pin that I don't care that much about. Bottom line to me here is that if you've been using it for a while with good personal experience, use what you want. If you've never used it, there are probably better things to use, based on a good majority of what other collectors are using. Like Clay has said, it's a cleaner, not a wax. I think that's always been my problem with it. It's not what it sounds like. If you use it, you still need to usually follow it with a carnauba wax. Novus is easier for me to control, so I choose to use Novus.

Where is the evidence to say that Millwax does the harm it does though. Can we get some pictures instead of facts and ingredients?

I am not personally saying that Millwax does any harm, just that there are better solutions available now.

You can still mow your yard with a pair of scissors, but we've innovated past that by this point.

The only "harm" Millwax does is through the silicone. If you treat something with silicone it "soaks in" pretty well. That's why you get that good slick coat, and it makes everything appear deeper/richer in color. The downside to that is that if you want to get anything to stick to it in the future (paint, decals, etc..) you have to completely remove the silicone, or you won't get any adhesion. A task that isn't very easy to do.

Silicone is the ingredient that makes Armor All do what it does. If you would put Armor All on your playfield, continue with Millwax as normal.

At this point, if you want to use the stuff.. who cares. I cant believe how many people dont know how to search a topic that has been beaten to a pulp for years not just here but every Pinball forum.

Its funny, when logged on today this came up as a new thread for some reason. I read from just before the bump (4 months ago) and you can see Lloyd is responding today to the question the same way in the same thread from back then..again.. lol. Lloyd you are a saint.

let me repeat this...
====
Novus2 is Paintable. that means you can paint on a surface, without problems, after you have used Novus2. Millwax is *not* paintable due to silicone. That's the issue as I see it. Because once Millwax is on a playfield, you have to jump through hoops to get a clearcoat to stick to that playfield.

The other issue i have with Millwax is the name, which implies it has wax. There is NO wax in Millwax, just silicone and (basically) Novus2 combined, using a really smelly pet dist solvent (which irritates my hands), and installed in a bottle that likes to crack and explode. Since the name "Millwax" implies something it is not, on that fact alone, i refuse to use the product. Add to that the difficulty in doing a clearcoat in the future on a Millwax'ed playfield, and i think there's *much* better approaches to cleaning a playfield.

Also if i want to "wax" my playfield, i would indeed want to use a wax, not silicone. Silicone gives NO benefits that wax does. All it does is "slime" the surface, essentially like a really sticky oil. Wax does not work like that - it fills the microscopic flaws in the playfield, making for a more level and smooth surface. This helps deter wear. Having "oil" on a playfield doesn't do that. Hence it's better to use Novus2 for the polishing, and then either stop or wax with a genuine wax.
====
To add to that, silicone is *extremely* difficult to get off a playfield once applied. I do clearcoating. I do a lot of clear coats. And i swear up and down everything i get a game with an old bottle of Millwax inside. Because frankly i can't get all the silicone off! Instead I have to use a very generous amout of "Smoothie" to get a good finish. Also my touchup paint doesn't like Millwax/silicone either, so the touchups don't adhere well either.

So what is Smoothie? It's silicone! Basically i have to add silicone to my clearcoat, in a greater amount than is currently on the playfield, to get a smooth (non fish-eye) finish. This of course screws the next guy down the line that has to do another clearcoat (if ever needed again.)

I will also add this - do not trust Steve Young for accurate information in regards to playfield cleaning. First, Steve hasn't operated a game since the 1970s. Second, Steve has never clear coated a playfield. Third Steve doesn't own a game newer than 1980. And fourth, Steve is financially involved with Millwax (hence his reason to push the product.) Generally Steve is right on with information on anything pinball. But when it comes to Millwax, he's just plain wrong. (He didn't even know the product didn't contain wax, but had silicone! I had to inform him of this fact.)

Like the Prez said, you can use what you want. Your playfield won't fall apart. But you should know the facts. I'll say this again - Millwax, unlike it's name, contains NO WAX. So if you think you're waxing a playfield with Millwax, you're not. It's a false sense of security at the minimum. As LTG said, there's far better approaches to cleaning a playfield. My suggestion is you take advantage of them, and leave Millwax back in 1976.

Makes sense to me. Hard to make up mind mind here still.

What about waxing an already Clearcoated playfield?

Right now I'm using Novus one with a microfiber to clean the playfield. Having tried waxing, but it needs it.

Why you have pinheads with much more extensive experience telling you what the best route is? How is it hard to make up your mind? I have not looked for studies on the subject but when pinheads with vastly more experience than myself provide their input on a subject I take their guidance.

Yes.

LTG

"Hard to make up my mind" when it comes to there actually being a tangible difference. After reading this entire thread again however, I think my millwax may be going in the trash

Again though. Waxing an already Clearcoated playfield...anyone know the best method?

Pure carnuba man, pure carnuba.

This.

Millwax isn't a terrible choice. I mean it cleans your playfield. I just think people should know the facts and make up their mind.

There are some situations where i like Millwax. Like say on an old EM playfield where the top glass was long ago broken, and the playfield is completely baked with dirty slime. Sometimes in situations like this, Novus2 won't cut the crud. Why? Because the silicone in Millwax makes the stuff more "slippery", and the higher Pet Dist (than Novus) acts like a dirt solvent. The downside is you get "Millwax Mudd", and of course the silicone left behind. But in that situation it works decent. (Though I have to admit i don't use Millwax for *anything* now, as I find the product offensive, and there's now better options to deal with the above situation.)

If it were my company, and i insisted on continuing sales of the product, i would make some changes. First I would do "Truth in Advertising." That is, state right on the label, right below the name "Millwax", and in type you could see and read, "this product contains NO wax." I would also add, "This product contains Silicone." I would also change the bottle to a Novus2 type bottle, so the damn stuff doesn't explode all over the floor when you drop it! Doing these small changes would negate most of my negatives about the product, as the consumer can then make a decision based on good label information.