Meteor
Stern Electronics, 1979heyo,
so ive become very familiar fixing EM machines. this is my first real look at/fix up of a ss machine.
everything seems to be working but all three flippers do not work. all fuses in the machine are good.
where do i look? i have the schematics and manual. i would think if it was one flipper it would be a coil, but cause its all three, im a little more confused.
ems dont have motherboards. this is new to me. any info/leads would be so appreciated.
thank you,
barry.
All the fuses including the one under the playfield?
Do you have voltage at the coils? If so, what happens if you jump the other side to ground?
The flippers are enabled via a relay mounted on the driver board, see if you can see/hear it clicking when you start/end a ball
Quoted from zacaj:All the fuses including the one under the playfield?
Do you have voltage at the coils? If so, what happens if you jump the other side to ground?
The flippers are enabled via a relay mounted on the driver board, see if you can see/hear it clicking when you start/end a ball
Actually, power is supplied to the flippers *before* the playfield fuse. But if you don't have power on the coils check the upper left connector on the rectifier board in the bottom of the cabinet. Rebuilding those connectors and replacing the header pins is the first thing I would do on the classic Sterns and Ballys.
Yes the fuse on play field is good too.
Yeah ill start with the rectifier header pins. Thank you for the tip.
One last oddity I will mention is that if I press right flipper button the shoot again light lights up.
I gotta go to hospital cause my daughter's bein born lol. I'll keep posted as to any fixes. Hopefully I still got free time for this lol.
Thanks again,
Barry.
alright, so ive undergone more investigation and observation.
flipper relay on SDB DOES NOT engage when powered on.
it does if i attach alligator clips to q15 and ground on Solenoid board.
i replaced q15 just in case. still same outcome.
i attached alligator clips to side rail and flipper coil. The right flipper (and third flipper DO engage). with same test on left coil, left flipper does not engage.
My two hunches are that it is a blown diode on a coil somewhere, or a power/wiring problem from a daisy chained/ solenoid to solenoid.
QUESTIONS:
1. what color wire is the main power that is daisy chained from coil to coil? and/or what lug would power wire be attached to on coils?
2. could it be a diode? this is my first main ss machine fix. i can only imagine when seeing the diodes attached to coils it may be crucial.
also, please let me know of any other lead. all works but flippers now. im so excited to see it work.
thank you.
barry
Was the grounded flipper coil done while Q15 was also grounded?
When to say the relay doesn't engage "when powered on", shouldn't it not engage until you start a game? (I've never actually watched it, but assumed from the schematics that's its normally open)
It's probably not a diode. The flippers still work without diodes, it's the rest of the machine that'll stop working.
The flipper relay on the SDB only engages when the flippers should be enabled i.e. in game mode.
If the relay doesn't engage when you start a game, it might not be receiving the signal from the MPU board to activate it. Typical connector issues with these machines.
This signal comes from the MPU board on connector J4 pin 7 and goes to the SDB on connector J4 pin 8.
Try wiggling both connectors when you've started a game and see if the relay responds.
You can manually force the logic signal to activate the relay.
If you ground pin 8 of connector J4 on the SDB (stick a thin wire or needle attached to your alligator clip into the connector pin), does the flipper relay engage?
If yes go backwards and ground pin 7 of connector J4 on the MPU board, does the relay engage?
No q15 was not grounded when I grounded the flipper coils.
Gotcha on the flipper relay. For some reason I thought it should engage when fully booted up .
So if it's not a diode, my only thought is it's a gap in the Daisy chained power to the sloinoids. ... Would that make sense? And what color wire/which lug on coils should be my main focus?
Quench I responded before seeing your post. I will try tests tonight. Thank you
Okay so I have confirmed power to both flippers. Wiggling left flipper while grounded got it to activate and now it activates every time while grounded. Right flipper activates while grounded as well.
Grounding Q15 will activate flipper relay while in attract mode. Once I start a game it will not.
... Does starting a game put flipper relay in activated state for whole game or just when flipper button pressed? I'm wondering if grounding Q15 in game doesn't work because it's already activated?
BUT WITH ALL THIS, FLIPPERS STILL DO NOT WORK DURING GAME FROM PRESSING FLIPPER BUTTONS.
Also I tried on Quench advice,wiggling the j4 connectors to no avail. I did not jump them yet tho...
Anything I'm missing? Any leads? I feel I'm close.
(I should add to that during solinoid test, only solinoid that doesn't fire are the flippers)
Quoted from BarryMulvihill:Okay so I have confirmed power to both flippers.
So you are measuring 43 volts at the flipper coils?
Quoted from BarryMulvihill:Does starting a game put flipper relay in activated state for whole game or just when flipper button pressed?
Yes, the flipper relay is activated for the whole game. However if you tilt the ball in play, the flipper relay will switch off (disabling the flippers) until the next ball.
When running the solenoid test, at number "15" it should briefly activate the flipper relay. The flippers won't flip unless you press/hold the flipper buttons during solenoid number 15 test.
If you ground the tab of Q15 during attract mode, the flippers should work when you press the buttons. Do they?
BTW, hope everything is going well with your new baby girl? 
During solinoid test flippers do not get activated if buttons are held.
I'm at work now, will check for 43volts when I get home. I will also confirm grounded Q15 does let flippers move, but I'm pretty sure I tried and they did not move.
Quench thanks! She's awesome but def taking away from pinball tinkering time lol.
Okay, to clarify -
The relay is energized whenever a game is playing. It enables the 43v to the coils.
The flipper buttons then activate ground, creating a complete circuit when the flipper button is pressed.
During solenoid test, and burn-in test, the relay is ONLY energized when it's number appears on the displays. (Can't recall the number right now, but it's one of the last ones before the Sound tests.) So, in a normally working environment, if you HOLD DOWN the flipper buttons, when that number appears in the display, the flippers will energize, then drop.
--Mike
Quoted from Coyote:The relay is energized whenever a game is playing. It enables the 43v to the coils.
43V is always present at the flipper coils. The flipper enable relay actually enables ground via the flipper buttons.
BarryMulvihill below are the schematic details for the flippers. I hope it makes sense.
Quoted from Quench:43V is always present at the flipper coils. The flipper enable relay actually enables ground via the flipper buttons.
barrymulvihill below are the schematic details for the flippers. I hope it makes sense.
You're right, I had it backwards.
Everything else - i.e. when the coil is activated, should be correct, though.
Here is a simplified diagram. You may want to run continuity on all wires by disconnecting connectors and measuring both ends. I've seen broken wires inside the insulation before. Also, every header that is part of this system, whether for power or ground or even the flipper enable relay, etc., should be reflowed. A cracked solder joint somewhere will cause flaky and intermittent issues.
EDIT: Another thing to look at that I've seen before are the traces from J1 and J2 to the flipper enable relay could be compromised. Remove the solenoid driver board and check. I think what I ran across is that a flipper must have locked on and the fuse didn't blow but instead burned up a trace. Just something to check.
alright! so with all your awesome hints, i took my multimeter and checked continuity with all associated wires. all were good till i checked the blue and red wires attached to flipper buttons. multimeter did not respond, so i followed wires, and they were attached to a connector leading to J2 on the light board. there was a red and blue wire on the J2 SDB but not attached to flipper buttons. aka the wrong blue and red.
i attached the red and blue from flipper buttons to J2 SDB and BAM! flippers work!
someone previously wired this game incorrectly. i still have investigation to do, as far as the other wires attached to connector leading to J2 light board. i have a hunch all of them lead to J2 SDB, but all is well.
thank you so much for your help and clarification. i had schematics, but this being my first SS fix, your detailed pics were a huge help.
game on homeys,
barry.
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Old Saybrook, CT