I know the OP and I am pretty sure he knows about business decisions. His argument is that cheaping out on something of this nature is in fact a bad cost cutting measure...they could charge $20 more for the pin and people would be willing to pay it for this feature. Sometimes you cut things out that people want and have dissatisfied customers costing you sales. These rails seem pretty important to me if you cant shop the game properly without them?

Unfortunately, this thread is very typical of what we've been seeing on Pinside a lot lately. A person starts a thread, and then it immediately turns hostile for no good reason. Even if you don't agree with the OP, why do you guys have to be so nasty? Think about it, did the OP's comments truly warrant such negative responses? Unless you work for Stern, it's not as if the criticism was aimed at you. The OP was simply looking for some clarity on the situation. Yes, he was venting a bit as well, but so what. We all do it from time to time. Some of you really need to lighten up.

I see your point, and I agree threads take a turn for the nasty too quickly these days. Sadly, it's not just on pinside. People tend to be much more passionate in their comments online than if we were all discussing the same issue in a bar while having a beer.

That being said, we all play a part in the escalation of a thread like this. A comment that would roll off our backs in a bar, gets read and re-read, and allows us minutes, not seconds, to respond (and since it's in print in front of us, it doesn't just go away like an offhand comment).

One person complains about Stern not adding this part at the factory for $$ added cost, another person calls them silly, they respond with the "fanboy" stuff, and it escalates.

In a bar, we'd be laughing and buying each other additional rounds and generally letting it go. On here, we all want to get the last word in after staring at the latest round of comments, etc.

Point taken, though.

These Topic that get's into people getting pissed are everywhere!

Pretty bored,i d'ont even read 1/4 of it.

Snaroff, did you call Stern and let them know your feedback?

Which JJP model costs around $4500 again?

But you actually can shop the game properly without them. It's a little less convenient but still pretty easy to work on. The pin can rest on the slingshot coil brackets pretty well. I would rather not have all prices raises by $20 for this feature. It's better for those that want it to purchase it themselves. But this wasn't even the issue the OP brought here. He was complaining that the holes weren't pre drilled. I installed mine without drilling any holes. It's no biggie.

You guys do realize that by not drilling the holes in the Pro PF it's not a cost savings for Stern right? If they're having to run two *different* playfields, with the difference being Pro vs Prem/LE, then it's costing them more in terms of having to stock and control two different part numbers instead of one. The cost savings of not drilling those holes? Pretty close to zero since when it's on the milling machine that's just part of the program and they'd only save seconds. There's more labor cost in setup time to change out the program, run different playfields, track them all as two inventory items, etc.

While there's a small savings in not *providing* the playfield slide supports, there's no savings in not drilling the holes and having just one playfield.

^ +1

I'm not sure why it's immediately assumed it's a cost-saving measure. Sometimes, when you have offerings in a "Good, Better, Best" layout (like pinball machine versions), you need to have some forced separation between the benefits at each level.

Maybe eliminating the holes from the pro was a way to widen that separation a bit.

And maybe someone just forgot to put them on the Pro cad drawings....

Yes and his argument is (in Sterns opinion) wrong. Stern thinks it is a good cost cutting measure. I don't have a horse int he race so I can't say one way or another, but the fact is, I don't see their products gathering dust on shelves these days. Let's think about another business decision - you're right that they could charge $20 more for these machines and people would pay it. I'd do it, and STILL not put those parts back in. Now I'm making $40 more...

Sometimes you cut things out that people want and have dissatisfied customers costing you sales.

Yes but in this case, that is not the case. The machines are being bought regardless of what lockdown bar is or isnt in the game. Hence, good business decision.

These rails seem pretty important to me if you cant shop the game properly without them?

Thats like saying power windows are a necessity. Pro machines get the job done and ultimately, the gameplay is not suffering in any way. Servicing is easily done albeit with more hassle - Should we all boycott old system 6 games because the playfield pivots like crap and theres not playfield rails?. Premiums have all the added luxuries, and even those models are dialed back from 'the old days' but guess what? They sell. Again great business decision from Stern dispite the fact that I now have to add side armor and better speakers. Until the machines stop selling, nothing will change.

In the end, everyone can read up on what they are buying, and try it out for themselves. If you don't like the missing options, buy a better machine, pay someone to install it, or move on to something else. Stern is no differnet than any other company. They don't make these machines as a favor to you or me - they HAVE to make money, and as much of it as possible. They aren't the hobbyists, they can't lose money on these machines so that everyone can have 100% of what they feel is fair and fun.

They're going to have to stock two different playfields regardless. There's a big hole drilled for the coffin lock on the Prem/LE.

The only counter to that is we're assuming those little holes are the ONLY difference and are the only part of the decision. Maybe they had issues with cabinets and playfield bars not aligning with the CNC cut holes (CPR can attest to alignment issues on playfields I'm sure) so they have some new fancy jig to install the parts where you drill those holes manually before installing parts that are guaranteed to fit. Thus pro playfields wouldn't go through such a process because its would be wasted time and money.

Stern isn't doing this for cost savings, they are doing it to make you feel like have to have the LE @ 7.5k. No LEDs, metal apron, playfield rails, now spinners...no problem. Just pony up 3k more and you can get these must have features.

I personally would rather see the LE's add significant features, not just keep ones that were stripped from the Pros.

so you think stern is responsible for making sure you can mod the product easier? thats not their job. The PF's are made on different runs due to the cutouts being different, the pro's dont come with slides, they are not going to cut for them.

I think that's the right thing to do. Let Stern know you miss the holes. They could be sitting around the office right now going "well, nobody had any feedback, so I guess they don't miss those holes on the pro."

if something is essential, that would mean the game wont work correctly without it. The flippers are essential to the game, without them the game is not the same. The game is fully serviceable with the lame posts as opposed to the slides.

the fact its not on the pro model means by defaults its an arbitrary mod for the pro. Its not on the game as manufactured, therefore its an arbitrary mod on that model.
They stopped drilling since it is not required. Save a few seconds on each PF saves money. drill fewer holes saves wear on the equipment, is it much on an individual PF basis, no. But they may choose to do this on every PF going forward for Pros. Over time that is a lot of wear and tear on the CNC. Less travel needed on the heads, less bit wear from drilling, it all adds up. If people stopped buying the pros because of the posts. stern would need to re-evaluate if the associated costs were worth dropping the post and going all slides, or going back to putting in holes at least.

I think the OP has a legitimate gripe, I hate the fact that they stopped putting slide rails on a game and it would cost stern NOTHING to keep drilling the holes on the playfield. Are you guys trying to tell me that the few seconds it takes stern to drill 2 extra holes is costing them money? What, 2 cents? Sometimes just making it easier for your customers in the final product to give them the option to upgrade their machine with something that came on your product for decades just makes sense?

And if it costs SO much to drill these holes, why are they drilling the extra holes for the shaker now? Why, couldn't they save themselves 2 cents and let the customers deal with it?

I don't get the attack on the OP, you guys need to lighten up.

As far as where to drill the holes, on the playfield art, near the 'wingtips' of the winged skull thing there are two small round areas cleared out. Is that where the t-nuts go? Can't tell if the apron would cover it or not.

Bumping up an old thread to see if anyone can confirm the LED Met pro is not pre-drilled.

Not sure about the LED Met pro but my IMVE was drilled and had the T-nuts

From what I understand, all pro version Sterns after Ironman aren't pre-drilled for rail supports. There was a thread when star trek pro came out where a guy removed the stock supports and put the t-nuts that come with the hardware kit into those holes. That way the supports start at the same spot and you don't have to drill holes for that side of the playfield. Its what I do now, and it works great.