Point well taken. It's sad that today Stern continues to make some of the same mistakes they did back when they were uncertain if they were going to be open another year or even another month. Stern did well last year, very well. Yet they raise prices and rush things out the door. It translates to "sticking the buyers for all we can" and no so much like "we are struggling and are trying in a bad economy, stay with us here guys" (like back in the days of CSI/WOF/24).

I'm not sure if you have the pinball version of Stockholm Syndrome or are just playing devils advocate. OF COURSE it's MEANT to catch and lock when you aim for the captive ball. That's where the magnet is, that block is there to "stop" a shot and get it on the magnet...that's the obvious and theoretically satisfying intent. SHOOT, HIT, CATCH, SLAM. The player shouldn't have to play around design problems. If I'm shooting toward the f*cking magnet and the ball is ROLLING OVER THE MAGNET, don't tell me it was the designer's intent that the ball should not be caught in that instance. I'm having flashbacks of the guy who said the Ice Ramp in X-Men dumped the ball in the middle of the playfield ON PURPOSE....so, seriously...don't start. This is a design flaw, clear and simple....game wasn't tested in the real world and shipped before it was known to work right....and it's not the first time. Transformers had the Megatron target airballs...oh wait, was that the designer's intent? Should we have all aimed to the corner of the drop target instead of hitting it head on? Nooo, it was a f*ck up and Stern made a kit to correct it. X-Men shipped with aux boards blowing, magnet rattling and not holding the balls well, Wolverine mounted wrong, Ice Ramp not programmed right ....I suppose these were all intended features?

Look, I buy Stern games - I'm far from a Stern basher...but STERN RUSHES GAMES WITHOUT TESTING. Fact. This whole captive block/magnet situation: Untested design flaw.

Complaining about the ball not catching when clearly ROLLING OVER THE MAGNET is not the same as whining about outlanes.

At the end of the day the problem is the same as it was during TF & Xmen's problems. Lack of communication. They still haven't figured out...be open and honest about your problems with your customer base. It's better to have an ongoing dialog about issues than pretending they don't exist.

Guys...GUYS! This is pinball. This is pretty much par for the course. Pinball machines usually go out the door without all their code features in place. Data East did it, Gottlieb did it, Bally did it, Williams did it, Stern does it, and Jersey Jack does it. None of these companies can afford to warehouse thousands of cabinets until code is 100% complete. They have to get their games shipping, and the code is completed as soon as possible.

This isn't something that will ever change. I wish it didn't have to be like this, but until the day that Stern and JJP are making millions more per year than they are, there's no way to fund a team of programmers to get this stuff done any more quickly.

I do wish that Lyman got compensation for his work though. I didn't buy a SM until it was finished, and that sold Stern more machines. I bet you X-Men is selling better now with recent updates as well.

Man, people sure like to pick on CSI! It reminds me of the Congo-bashing on RGP 10 years ago.

How about each of us that buys a NIB donates 1 dollar for a fund. and after 3 months we take that money (by that time it will be millions!! .. lol) and give it to Lyman so he speeds up and get a compensation as well

Actually, I'd be majorly in favor of a "Thanks, Lyman" fundraiser.

I have a rule. Never buy a stern until the third run of the Premium. Only then can you:

1. Trust all the stern Kool-Aid drinkers are not just blue tongued on the newest stern, it's actually really selling well.

2. Trust the code has developed to a good playing point, otherwise it is not selling well.

3. Feel confident you have purchased a machine that feels somewhat complete and you aren't going to lose on it.

You get the glam version, didn't risk another code bomb, and have something that is a proven success.

If they haven’t made a third run yet of something, it’s probably worth passing on.

How many runs did Iron Man get? Just the one, right?

Someone else brought this up but it's pretty damn interesting.

On Twister the skill shot is to hit the magnet (on the spinning disc) that's about 18" or so in front of the flippers.

If you miss it and don't hit a switch.. you can hit it with the flippers.

The flipper coils on my twister are ridiculously over powered..there are very few shots that don't result in airballs.

On a missed skill shot...the magnet will grab 100% of the time from the flipper...even with the crazy flipper coil strength.

How the hell is this such an issue 15 years later..from basically the same company

The mystery hole also awards add fuel.

C'mon 3 months is nothing. The game powers on does it not? It has a hammer locking mech that works 50% of the time. What else do you really want from Stern. Game was only around $7000.00 a fully working game out of the box should cost more $$$.

Add me to the list of people that find Metallica an awesome looking game that I never play due to lack of it being deep, working properly and having many modes.

I liken Metallica to a on route System 11 game maybe a BK2K with a drawbridge that works half ass.

Stern should start making one version of the same game and make it right. Make the LE have the bling but not these stupid extra features.

LE would be cool with color changing inserts and trim. - Played the pro and I believe the pro actually plays a bit better (faster)

Goldeneye, too. The magnet in the satellite & between the flippers ALWAYS work & sense/catch the ball.

STERN and JJP both are builting realy great games, with incomplete and lacking code at the time they were delivered.
I am still waiting for my MetLE, but this week I should get it. I don't know if the hammer will work.
I have an AC/DC and a WOZ, both are a blast to play. Great games.
But codewise they are noway near the perfection that my SM had. I know that there will be comming a lot more for the WOZ, and so I am save with it, cause Keith had promised to make it a deep and fun game.

Long talking, without the point I would like to say here.
I just think it's not so important that the code is complete, the point is that we should have confidence in the companys that they will solve all our problems with their products. And that they will make them complete. I have this thrust in Keith and Lyman. But Gary Stern, with all his merrits for this hobby caused a lot of mistrust in the past in the way he hypes always the next game and forgets about the last one.
That was no problem when STERN was the only company around. But they should learn how to give us this thrust back again.

I like STERN and their games, but the Facebook page and who ever is responsible for it is a joke.
Would it hurt to confess if there are problems with a game? If they insure that they are working on it?
Would it be a problem if they would tell us if a programmer is still working on new modes or if a game is considered as complete?

As it is today, we get the product, uncomplete and with glitches and have to beg and hope for it to be made complete and to masterpieces in the not working time of the programmers? I am thankfull for Lymans work, but it should not be work for him to do by his own. The company should do everything to make these games the most fun they could possibly do with them, and they should inform us about it.
I know that metallica will be a great game sometime in the future, and there will be updates in the future, but it would be great for the mood of everyone in this hobby if STERN could inform us more about future updates and what will come.

Ouch easy man. Sorry you apparently took offense.

My knee jerk response: sell the game.
If you don't want to be expected to deal with problems then NIB is not for you. Like it or not NIB Sterns have issues and have for years. This is not new. Airballs, loose bulbs, mechas that don't work, stuck balls.... none are new Stern NIB issues. You know this so stop acting like Stern has committed some sort of unthinkable sin because a lock is spotty.

Addressing the actual lock issue: You're acting like i filled my post with insults and slurs. Just making a suggestion to help you enjoy the game more in it's current state. Just because you are inferring what the intent was doesnt make the mechanism work beter.

All I'm saying is instead of ranting and raving, get the ball to roll over the plate slower until they fix it to what you are screaming for. For the record, on my machine if the ball hits the block and slowly rolls down over the magnet it is caught 99% of the time. I'm having trouble deciphering through the anger and capital letters if you're expecting it to be caught on the way up or down the playfield. On mine, it's rare to see a catch on the way up to the captive ball on a high speed direct hit, but if the ball dies and rolls down onto the magnet off the captive ball it's fine.

whole captive block/magnet situation: Untested design flaw.
Complaining about the ball not catching when clearly ROLLING OVER THE MAGNET is not the same as whining about outlanes.

Maybe yours is more broken than mine, but i will say if I hit the captive ball dead on, and get a non-deflecting roll back over the plate, it works. Any ball that i can tell ACTUALLY rolls or will roll over and touch that magnet plate is a guaranteed catch. Its only high speed direct shots that are questionable.

Does it work as good as I'd like? no. is it broken? probably. Is it playable? Yes if you adapt to the issue. Else, sell the machine and buy it again when it's the way you want. Reality is it may be like this forever.

Friends of mine also got a new board; they say it's lots better, but still not perfect. This is their 3rd magnet board and 2nd magnet assy so far.

Ive played many games on the new board on both my machine & a location premium. The coffin lock works much better but it will never be 100% with the way the code is designed for the sensor to detect the ball before turning on the magnet.

It seems the only way it will ever be the way many want it is for them to code it the way the Sparky magnet works (turn on the magnet as soon as the switch it hit). Ive seen that magnet grab the ball out of mid air.

Correct. And all I'm saying is this obviously isn't how Borg or Lyman wanted it or it would have been done that way. They want it to be a roll over, detect, catch, and on mine it works this way as long as extreme ball speed is avoided.

Will it remain a roll over? I don't know but for now, it is.

If I were designing it, I would use the captive ball as the 'ON', and use the sensing function to prevent phantom hammering (if that's possible with the magnet on at full power - it's probably not). We're all on teh same side, I'm just enjoying the game in it's current form more than others I guess.

Sorry, but you can't polish a turd. JMO.

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th-2.jpeg

I agree....Im hoping for some really good code work as opposed to being too concerned about the coffin lock. If they tweak it some thats great. I played about 8-10 games lastnight & got coffin MB on almost every game. I would like them to see them change it where the hits to the cube keep counting towards future locks as opposed to no credit towards future locks until the ball is physically locked.

Like hell you cant....what do you think they did with ACDC Pro.

With this new pin crazed market the Pro would be dropped as it is missing the features everyone wants to drool over. Then 7k is now the lowest price for a Stern pin. Commence the complaining.

Unless you want the pro to be the only model? The one missing the better lighting, and extra mechanisms or modes? Then theoretically Stern has only a $5k machine... and a $5500 LE? Why would they do that when they can already sell $7500 LEs? Doesn't make sense business wise.

100% agreed.

OH SNAP. I didn't have the guts to post that... oh how i wanted to. Thank you to smassa for falling on that sword.

This reminds me of the Gimli saucer. Remember how many people said that it was "broken" because a direct, powerful hit would skip right over the saucer and into the pops? Now it's pretty well accepted that it's a feature - you have to finesse that shot.

So true. One software version, one game to test. It's clear the current development time doesn't allow for nailing two different versions of a game.

No. Why would I do that? I know Stern games don't have code complete upon release and I bought the game knowing that. Because Lyman is coding it I have faith in the future of the code. I bought an LE "cheap" at release...I'm patient enough to wait and see what the game is to become. I hung with TFLE and XMENLE for quite some time until it was clear my patience wouldn't pay off and they wouldn't be able to make those games good. Lyman's track record has earned my respect and patience.

It's happened before, but that doesn't make it right...and that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion that it's f*cked up. When the main extra feature of the LE/Prem doesn't work well - I will voice my opinion about it in the hope that it will be corrected.

I'm expecting the ball to sense and catch when the ball is aimed directly at the captive block...which results in the ball passing over the magnet twice. It rarely does this...the speed of direct hits and direct ricochets are troublesome for this design. If yours is ricocheting back off the captive ball, clearly over the magnet and catching every time - well then...*clap clap clap*...you got lucky...and if you got lucky maybe there's something physically wrong with the rest of our games -and it would be nice to figure out what it is. Did you do something to your captive ball? Foam or something? Cuz the ball never "dies" off a direct captive ball hit...it always ricochets back fast.

Again, you completely misunderstand who I am and how I deal with NIB purchases. I have patience. I'm not throwing a tantrum. I can wait to see if they figure things out. However, I'm voicing my opinion on a flaw. An opinion based on the facts of mine and others experiences. An opinion based on the facts that Stern has never put their LE/Prem models out for test before release. I had patience with TFLE and XMenLE until it was clear that little-to-nothing was going to be done to fix those games. Metallica is young and Lyman is going to add a lot....I can hang...but - I'm hoping that while we're all waiting, they're seriously coming up with a solution to fix the hammer magnet problem, because it IS a problem....not just for my "selfish" needs...but for their own bottom line. I guarantee plenty of potential buyers are holding off on Premiums until things get better. If they come up with proper fixes, they'll sell a ton. Me (and others) held off on AC/DC until that first killer update hit. Sales boomed and are still hot. Metallica has potential to have that "it" factor...just needs some issues hammered out (har har har)

Mmmmm....not QUITE the same....a saucer shot vs. a complex mechanism...but in any case, that has a software fix. If it goes into the pops but falls back into the Gimli saucer, you get the saucer award! The game knows if the game is coming through the pops from the orbits or from the saucer...that's smart coding. Allowing the captive ball to keep counting toward locks would be a somewhat similar "fix".

I dunno, the versions aren't THAT different, codewise. The problem with the LEs has been the extra physical mechs and features. They're not tested at Gameworks like they used to do with every game to find "real world" mistakes and fix them before shipping.

I guess you did say "pretty well" accepted. I hate the Gimli saucer.

People can do what they want with their money of course, but if that's going to be the case, they shouldn't be surprised when the product doesn't turn out the way they expect.

All we're doing is letting these people know there's a specific cause-and-effect in place, and if they want to avoid the situation repeating itself (which it seems to do twice a year, ad nauseum) is not buy stuff that's not finished.

Again, nobody is telling anybody what they can do with their money.

We are however, suggesting that there is a way to avoid these problems. If people don't want to listen, that's fine, but don't expect much sympathy from the community when you all have been told how and why these problems persist and you turn a deaf ear to it.

I'm not holier than thou myself... I bought into WOZ and it's still not here even though I probably paid for it almost a year ago. I won't make that mistake again. Lesson learned. I will wait until these games are *done*.

I'm sure you've put a lot of time on a machine to come to that conclusion right??

Sorry man, that game is FAR from a turd...JMO (and pretty much everyone who has actually played the machine)...and yes, the code will get perfected in time...

You just seemed overly passionately angry specifically at this game mechanism. I don't know you personally so maybe what i interpret as anger or an overreaction is just your reaction.

Because Lyman is coding it I have faith in the future of the code. I bought an LE "cheap" at release...I'm patient enough to wait and see what the game is to become.
...snip...
It's happened before, but that doesn't make it right...and that doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion that it's f*cked up. When the main extra feature of the LE/Prem doesn't work well - I will voice my opinion about it in the hope that it will be corrected.

Ok but i see that as two opposing things - being patient on a NIB (which you are obviously no stranger to) and complaining a few months in with profanity and capital letters when the mechanism IS working, just not to your standards yet. OT discussion and again, I don't know you so perhaps it's just my interpretation of your post which would be my bad.

I'm expecting the ball to sense and catch when the ball is aimed directly at the captive block...which results in the ball passing over the magnet twice. It rarely does this...the speed of direct hits and direct ricochets are troublesome for this design.

I expected it too... but it doesnt work that way (yet?). I adapted by making shots which more often than not result in the ball ROLLING over the plate. Not flying, skipping, bouncing, etc... I imagine the magnet as a hole in the playfield - get the ball to roll into it. Again is that how it SHOULD work? I'd say no - but this is what we have NOW. Lobbying for the 100th time on here about flaky sensing is pointless - Stern knows theres issues. They will either fix it, or they wont.

If yours is ricocheting back off the captive ball, clearly over the magnet and catching every time - well then...*clap clap clap*...you got lucky...and if you got lucky maybe there's something physically wrong with the rest of our games -and it would be nice to figure out what it is. Did you do something to your captive ball? Foam or something? Cuz the ball never "dies" off a direct captive ball hit...it always ricochets back fast.

Sometimes it's luck, but it's not all luck. I changed how I make the shots so that my riccochets are lessened and are more likely to be caught. This is why i brought up outlanes - I didn't modify my rubbers, posts, tilt, etc... at all when I was getting bad outlane drains, I adjusted my play and made different shots. Some people think the lack of a post at the left outlane is a design flaw - I adjusted my playstyle and would argue otherwise.

Again, you completely misunderstand who I am and how I deal with NIB purchases. I have patience. I'm not throwing a tantrum. I can wait to see if they figure things out. However, I'm voicing my opinion on a flaw. An opinion based on the facts of mine and others experiences. An opinion based on the facts that Stern has never put their LE/Prem models out for test before release.

Fair enough, but when I get a response to a post filled with swearing and a multitude of capital letters, I interpret it as a fairly strong set of feelings that's all. I reccomended an alteration in shooting strategy to help people get enjoyment out of the game AS IT IS TODAY and you came back quite aggressively. I'm far from upset by any of it for the record. I'm just bored at work

I'm hoping that while we're all waiting, they're seriously coming up with a solution to fix the hammer magnet problem, because it IS a problem....not just for my "selfish" needs...but for their own bottom line.

Agreed. And I don't think you're being selfish at all. I agree the mechanism is far from perfect and IF it can be 100% I want it that way.

Metallica has potential to have that "it" factor...just needs some issues hammered out (har har har)

Hahaha nice

I love my MetallicA and i love Pizza!!

Sorry, I saw your post as "blame the victim"...it's my fault for not learning how to play around the flaws...not Stern's fault for releasing a flawed game....that's why I got pissy...I wasn't in the mood to justify Stern's design faults as intended features that I was interacting with incorrectly. Sorry if I misinterpreted how you meant to come off - but I just instantly got flashbacks of the guy who said that the f*cked up Iceman ramp code was intentional and how much he loved the randomness of the ball dumping off the ramp. Ugh.

haha!

Hahaha no worries. Sorry if thats how i came across. Somewhere I'm sure I crossed my argument and said something to that effect.

I've sworn alot at captive ball shots that SHOULD lock but dont and end up in an outlane, hence why i suggested altering strategy for now. Saves me alot of frustration tilts haha.

We're 100% in agreement that this whole thing could work better. In NO way do I think this is 'working as intended'. My only beef is with the 'captive ball activate magnet' argument. As much as I think this is a quick fix that would probably work, It's clear to me the intent is a roll over target, It's just not sensitive enough (yet). I'm also scared that a glancing blow to the captive ball that activated the magnet would cause the ball to be flung around monger style which im 100% sure is not the intent at this point.

That's cuz Monger is pulsed in a way that's supposed to fling. Like it was said earlier in this thread, Sparky's magnet activates on that final switch hit for his Multi - and sometimes it grabs the ball out of the air and pulls it back! If anything, it should be an option. "Lock Lit Captive Hit Activate Magnet ON/OFF". That was my biggest thing when railing on TF's lack of progress save. The Stern guys didn't want it...most players did. Just give us the OPTION then, everyone can be happy. A year later they finally gave us the option lol. I hope Metallica gives us some more options sooner than later...options make pinball better.

It wasn't intended as a rollover...but it was programmed to "sense-grab" ...I don't think it's capable of "grab-sense" ...that's where the problem lies. They want it to sense to make sure it's there so it doesn't hammer-slam with the ball elsewhere. I hope Lyman can figure out a way to make it "grab-sense"...or if not - "grab-release-QUICKLY sense-grab"

It's very easy to "rathole" on even one additional feature (like the one being discussed in this thread). As we've seen, the rate of progress is slow for progress on simple stuff. The STERN software development platform is ancient and I'm sure it accounts for some of the delays. Since Lyman is the goto guy, improving his productivity should be something STERN management focuses on. I've managed large software teams and it's never a good idea to have one guy be your bottleneck (duh). Seems like Lyman's "genius" is in designing the rules. Assuming this is true, then you'd think it would be straightforward for others to implement. Who knows...

LOL after all this I just played a game and had a fast/direct hit to the cube and the magnet caught it.

Tru that. I've also had it miss grabs and throw it as well though. Granted, the captive ball doesnt airball things like sparky does.

If anything, it should be an option. "Lock Lit Captive Hit Activate Magnet ON/OFF".

absolutely agreed. I believe adj #75 is intended to control this very thing, but I don't know that it works yet.

It wasn't intended as a rollover...but it was programmed to "sense-grab" ...I don't think it's capable of "grab-sense" ...that's where the problem lies. They want it to sense to make sure it's there so it doesn't hammer-slam with the ball elsewhere. I hope Lyman can figure out a way to make it "grab-sense"...or if not - "grab-release-QUICKLY sense-grab"

Yeah you're right, it really should be grabbing at the ball if the ball is anywhere near it. On mine in test mode, the ball literally must touch the magnet to make it detect it, but it is very repeatable.

Frankly, I would be surprised if it doesnt just change to captive ball hit, grab, lock ala TOTAN. Cut a chunk of mylar for around the magnet for dragging the ball across when the magnet is on, and boom, done. I think the sensing grab is too fancy and unnecessary with the circuitry they've chosen. The ball clearly doesnt give off enough of a signature to be sensed enough. I hope I'm proven wrong, but in the end I think either way will work better than the current situation.

Quite your bitching then & "play better".....

Hahaha i hate those. I always yell and ask why it cant do that every time....

In the test mode mine actually can detect it if you're holding the ball over the magnet! It doesn't need to make contact to sense the ball!!! That makes the whole "no sense at fast speed" thing even weirder!!!

Mine has to touch. The sensor will pick up floating magnetic items like the flat wide handle of my silverware, but the ball has to touch, or be so damn close i cant help but touch it.

I wonder if the ball itself throws a wrench into the detection. Maybe certain balls get grabbed easier due to metallurgy or something?

Are you using mirror polished balls? It's been said that those will not work 100% in games with magnets.

Just want to say to anyone on the fence, to get off the fence and go buy a Metallica Pro. The game is freaking amazing and the code is not even close to done. I haven't had any glitches or weird things happen. (Did on the premium)
Played the premium first and was not impressed for the price difference. I actually prefer the action of the Pro captive ball with virtual locks.
Game is too much fun!

I use these balls I bought through e-bay:

ebay.com link: Six carbon steel premium mirror finish pinballs

I won't say that I don't have ANY issues with the hammer, but it doesn't seem as bad as everyone says. Very rarely is there a phantom hammer or a missed locked ball. More often than not, the magnets do their thing. I mean, a crazy hard shot will never stick (not even at sparky), but I am getting coffin multiball every game.

I wouldn't call this suggestion as making you "sound like an ass", but it is stupid to suggest that someone adjust how they play because the damn pin doesn't work like it should. That misses the point entirely.

Exactly.

RobT me and rarehero went back and forth. all is good. my suggestion came off wrong. I'm simply offering a way to enjoy what we all have. It's not a fix or an excuse Everyone can feel free to keep flinging balls at the captive block for no reason. I will adjust my play for the time being and continue to lock balls When/if it gets fixed, I'll adjust again.

Yeah, I actually should have bothered reading all the subsequent posts before replying to that one. There were 36 responses added from the last time I read the thread, and yours was the first one that I came to that I felt the need to reply to. It's all good.