(Topic ID: 144314)

Met Premium or Williams IJ


By bdaley6509

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 98 posts
  • 45 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by Kneissl
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

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Linked Games

Topic poll

“MET Premium or Williams IJ”

  • MET Premium 120 votes
    61%
  • Williams Indiana Jones 77 votes
    39%

(197 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

There are 98 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 4 years ago

Ooh...it must be the three playfield magnets!

#52 4 years ago
Quoted from wolfy:

You are all right sparky bash toy is not straight up the middle like the alien ship, The 2 ramps do not loop and come straight back to the corresponding flippers on each machine .The snake drop hole is not on the right near where the stroke of luck drop is. The loop is nothing alike and they are not even basic fan layouts. Neither has the same flow or feel. These games are as opposite as any 2 games have ever been.

Here...you forgot this for the slow people that didn't pick it up:

#53 4 years ago

Metallica is a fun game, but I would never buy it because I am not a fan of the music.

Williams IJ is one of my favorite games. I would love to own a pimped out HEP with Chestnut brass trim and coin door.

#54 4 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

Metallica of any ilk is an average at best Stern, just do not see what anyone sees in it except for the artwork.

And I think it's one of the best games Stern has ever made. To each their own! I love games from all eras, just look at my collection. I don't consider Williams/Bally games somehow magically better. They have a lot going for them, but the rules were a lot simpler back then. I personally enjoy 1980/81 Bally games a ton, hoping to pick up two more shortly, so everything I own doesn't have to be "deep". But it's fun to have a game that has a sophisticated rule set, like Metallica. Helps that I like the band though for sure.

Yes, it's a "fan layout with a shot up the middle".

I'm cool with being critical about too many games being like that, but I happen to like this one a lot. It plays nothing like AFM. It's really just a ridiculous comparison.

#55 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

So is it your opinion that only people who don't have serious playing time on MET would like IJ more?
That would be an opinion, a silly one, but you'd be entitled to it.
I'm a little confused.
EDIT: Ah...nevermind...the classic Pinside "you obviously just don't understand the game" routine. Always good when someone dusts off that old garbage.

It's not a routine, but hey keep the insults coming! Providing some great content for this thread

-2
#56 4 years ago

Not all "20 year old games" are created equal.

If you put the effort into finding what you want you can find examples of IJ: TBA that rival any modern SS Stern Machine.
NO 20 year old Stern machine can make that claim.
Stern pinball machines use poor quality construction, softer metal, poorly spot welded ramps that are not even solid construction, improper quality light boards, and the list goes on and on.
These were all cost saving measures.
Quality control is suspect now.
The last time Stern's QC was tighter was in the early 1980s.
If you wonder why nobody wants a Striker Xtreme, its not because of its theme.
Most want a WMS IJ, because the game has depth, plays well, and is not a nightmare to maintain.
Its built like a tank, and I have owned mine since 1998.
There are many worse technical maintenance games in the WMS/BLY repertoire.

The last NIB box game I bought from Stern was LOTR in 2004, and it was my last.
I was actually HELPING Stern fix their game based on all sorts of engineering oversights and programming code.
It was a not a code mess like WoO from Jersey Jack, but there is a reason the "second run" and "limited run" were better for LOTR.

In 10 years, MET will be falling apart.
In 10 years, IJ: TBA will still be running, even though it is 3X the age of MET.

How do I know this?
Look at Guns and Rose from Data East for example.
Good ruleset, good game play, good music, and most are completely trashed now, due to manufacturer and people "moving on".
The construction has not aged well and parts are hard to come by even with repos.
Stern's QC is worse than DE.

#57 4 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Not all "20 year old games" are created equal.
If you put the effort into finding what you want you can find examples of IJ: TBA that rival any modern SS Stern Machine.
NO 20 year old Stern machine can make that claim.

Because they werent around 20 years ago. Unless you're considering Sega.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Stern pinball machines use poor quality construction, softer metal, poorly spot welded ramps that are not even solid construction, improper quality light boards, and the list goes on and on.

Disagree. The quality of construction is fine. The metal is not softer. None of my ball guides are melting or bending. I have never, ever seen a stern ramp spot welds broken (plenty of B&W are). The light boards are fine quality and considerably better than the incandescent crap that shipped in say IJ. The list does not go on and on. You haven't even started a reasonable list yet.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Quality control is suspect now.
The last time Stern's QC was tighter was in the early 1980s.

As many old timers that were actually around will tell you, the stern Q/C of today is as good as any Q/C that came out of BW times.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

If you wonder why nobody wants a Striker Xtreme, its not because of its theme.

What are you joking?? Of course it's the theme. This is one of the worst pinball themes ever.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Most want a WMS IJ, because the game has depth, plays well, and is not a nightmare to maintain.

Is this another joke?? The williams wide bodies were all a nightmare to maintain. Star trek and TZ the worst, road show, demo man and IJ are terrible maintenance nightmares. The POA is almost always f'ed up, the idol often broken, tons of optos, subways, lots of things to go wrong.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Its built like a tank, and I have owned mine since 1998.

Yours was brought into your home when it was about 5 years old and maintained by you since. It should be in relatively good (low usage) condition. Being heavy doesn't mean better. When's last time a pinball cabinet fell apart because it didnt have thick enough wood?

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

In 10 years, MET will be falling apart.

Probably. Because it's such an awesome game it will be played a *ton*. Mine has over 2000 plays and is still running just like new.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

In 10 years, IJ: TBA will still be running, even though it is 3X the age of MET.

Nah there's much more that will go wrong on this game than on metallica.

Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

How do I know this?
Look at Guns and Rose from Data East for example.
Good ruleset, good game play, good music, and most are completely trashed now, due to manufacturer and people "moving on".
The construction has not aged well and parts are hard to come by even with repos.
Stern's QC is worse than DE.

I have seen several data east GnR come through my shop. I've owned 3. None were even close to trashed. In fact, all were in much better shape than the 3 IJ's that came through my shop.

#58 4 years ago
Quoted from wolfy:

You are all right sparky bash toy is not straight up the middle like the alien ship, The 2 ramps do not loop and come straight back to the corresponding flippers on each machine .The snake drop hole is not on the right near where the stroke of luck drop is. The loop is nothing alike and they are not even basic fan layouts. Neither has the same flow or feel. These games are as opposite as any 2 games have ever been.

You have effectively described 20+ games that are ripoffs of AFM. Some of which even came out before AFM.

#59 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

You have effectively described 20+ games that are ripoffs of AFM. Some of which even came out before AFM.

Just because they couldn't know they were going to be AFM ripoffs doesn't make them any less of a ripoff!

#60 4 years ago
Quoted from eggbert52:

I don't know about that bro, and it kind of hurts your credibility in this thread to say that. Metallica is one of if not Stern's best game ever. That being said, IJ is one of the best games of all time. Most of the people voting have probably never even played IJ. The rest don't have the means to buy a nice one so they get angry and vote for MET. Then there are those who have legitimately played both and voted for MET based on personal preference.
Both games are awesome and if anything compliment each other.

To me they don't belong even belong in the same league, that is my honest opinion. Metallica is OK, but that is as far as it goes, IJ is one of the greats.

#61 4 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

To me they don't belong even belong in the same league, that is my honest opinion. Metallica is OK, but that is as far as it goes, IJ is one of the greats.

To me they don't belong even belong in the same league, that is my honest opinion. IJ is OK, but that is as far as it goes, Metallica is one of the greats.

#62 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

It's not a routine, but hey keep the insults coming! Providing some great content for this thread

That's not an insult.
Not understanding rules is a classic boring pinside retort in the same league as "you probably didn't play a dialed in MET which is why you don't like it."

-1
#63 4 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

To me they don't belong even belong in the same league, that is my honest opinion. Metallica is OK, but that is as far as it goes, IJ is one of the greats.

Too bad you are completely wrong

#64 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

To me they don't belong even belong in the same league, that is my honest opinion. IJ is OK, but that is as far as it goes, Metallica is one of the greats.

You have tons of modern Sterns and a handful of B/W, dgpinball has tons of B/W and a handful of Sterns. Looks like it's a matter of which style you prefer. OP has a bunch of 90s B/W games though

#65 4 years ago
Quoted from yzfguy:

Too bad you are completely wrong

Really? Come play my IJ or even ACDC and see how it trumps your teal Metallica, tough guy.

#66 4 years ago
Quoted from beelzeboob:

Really? Come play my IJ or even ACDC and see how it trumps your teal Metallica, tough guy.

Now we are bringing Trump into this? Why do you always have to make political posts?/Trouble follows you everywhere!

#67 4 years ago

We are splitting hairs here. Having said that, I voted MET.

#68 4 years ago
Quoted from Zampinator:

We are splitting hairs here. Having said that, I voted MET.

You can't split hairs with Yzfguy.

#69 4 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:

That's why this is a great hobby....different strokes. Fun game, but I even like ST better than MET.

+1. I'll vote yes to this as well.

#70 4 years ago

Here's hoping Stern makes more great games like MET because their last few games including GOT don't even compare. As much as I like MET I voted for IJ but it really is just a matter of preference as both are fun.

#71 4 years ago

Both are great pins for different reasons. MET has really been growing on my lately so that was my vote. Not sure why because I really don't care for the band or the style of artwork. It just comes together really well as a package and is visually very interesting.

#72 4 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

That's not an insult.
Not understanding rules is a classic boring pinside retort in the same league as "you probably didn't play a dialed in MET which is why you don't like it."

How are those classic and boring retorts? They are fully true. If you haven't gotten good time on a game you can't comment an other is better with much validity.

I never liked Champion Pub. Thought it was dark and boring. Forever I bashed the shit out of it cause it was dumb and as it rose it price I thought people were silly for paying for it. Then I played a nice, working, well lit one and it's one of my top favorite games by far. Was able to hear all the great call outs and humor etc.

#73 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

How are those classic and boring retorts? They are fully true. If you haven't gotten good time on a game you can't comment an other is better with much validity.

No, that is not what you said. This statement above is fully true.
Assigning that premise to someone else because they like IJ better is the problem. You're assuming something, and using a diff'rent set of standards to justify it.

Quoted from jrivelli:

Most people here saying "IJ easy win". How so? Have you played Metallica on a pinball level or simple said, "Metallica is a meh theme for me?"

#74 4 years ago

This is called the aspect to "Agree to disagree"
25+ years as an operator, technician, and collector, differs my perspective of Stern game quality.
Stern's quality was good in the early 1980s, same as the Early Bally era (80-84).
MUCH BETTER than Gottlieb with its System 80 board and connector issues, lack of grounding on certain games, and even proper solid state design based on game flaws that were recognized IMMEDIATELY after the games hit the ground to operators.

I have watched too many people come and go in this hobby to get into arguments.

WE NEED PEOPLE TO PROVIDE MORE REPRODUCTION AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT.

Stern continues to struggle to maintain a new market with different management strategies.
Operators consist of less than 30% of their original numbers from the early 2000s alone.
Properly trained pinball techicians are covering multiple state county's just to maintain machines.
Tech knowledge is being lost for some types of manufacturers.

I keep noticing patterns on Pinside since my return and most "old timers" agree, if they even post any more.
Most do not post for very specific reasons.
This whole forum keeps getting filled with whining.
There is an opportunity here for people to learn, or just epeen all day.

#75 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Yours was brought into your home when it was about 5 years old and maintained by you since. It should be in relatively good (low usage) condition. Being heavy doesn't mean better. When's last time a pinball cabinet fell apart because it didnt have thick enough wood?

Did I refer to the machine being "tank" because of weight?
I never said that.
Not all WMS/BLY widebody machines were problematic.
People need to know the "Achilles heels" and be cognisant.

STTNG? Yes, because it requires much more maintenance than others, and operators were lazy with techs, the design is fine.

TZ? Yes, some things were initially over complicated, and technicians were unskilled in some cases.
I personally did not really see any major issues, because I did my tech runs weekly.
You did not start to see the ball sensor issues until a few years, the gumball machine assembly got fixed with the added plastic tab, and the Power MPF was corrected in design from samples.

Road Show? No, turn off the $%#%ing shaker motor, to prevent issues. #1 reason for problems. Its not the "eddy boards".

Judge Dredd? Sort off, the Dead World ball locking mechanics were flawed in game design, but fixed on the final part of the run.
That was the ONLY problem with this game.

Demo Man? No, there is nothing really that goes wrong, as it its just standard opto/switch maintenance, which requires LIFTING THE PLAYFIELD, again operator laziness with sending their techs. The claw mech is not a source of problems. Nor is the lift mech for the claw. EVERYTHING is accessible.

Indiana Jones? Yes, if not checked for a LONG time. The PoA opto board and corrections are not maintenance friendly.
The locking idol is simple, the rotor lock sometimes breaks. There were parts issues with this game about 10+ years after introduction now corrected.

Corvette? Depends on opinion. Personally, I thought parts of the game were not the most well designed with the engine locks and racetrack. Engineering could have been better.

Popeye? Yes, the dual level playfield was not the best in terms of accessibility even though it was a latecomer, just not a well understood game. Parts still seem hard to come by. Just not that popular. Some people had problems with the right side spinning wheel.

Cabinet issues?
Eight Ball Champ, 1985.
(Bally-Midway)
The cabinet was COMPLETE crap made out of particle board NOT plywood, but was the right thickness.

The message I am sending here, is that there are many "old timers", and I would prefer to help, hence, I will stick the tech posts in the future.

#76 4 years ago
Quoted from DefaultGen:

You have tons of modern Sterns and a handful of B/W, dgpinball has tons of B/W and a handful of Sterns. Looks like it's a matter of which style you prefer. OP has a bunch of 90s B/W games though

I just sold off Medieval madness, TOTAN, CV, Theatre of magic, cactus canyon continued, star trek next gen, champ pub, shadow all the last 6 weeks. I came to a realization that the stern games are just way better when it comes to rules.

#77 4 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

Corvette? Depends on opinion. Personally, I thought parts of the game were not the most well designed with the engine locks and racetrack. Engineering could have been better.

Corvette? Not a wide body.

#78 4 years ago
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

I keep noticing patterns on Pinside since my return

Who were you before?

#79 4 years ago

That boy can type!

#80 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

I just sold off Medieval Madness, TOTAN, CV, Theatre of Magic, Cactus Canyon continued, Star Trek next gen, champ pub, Shadow all the last 6 weeks. I came to a realization that the stern games are just way better when it comes to rules.

Glad you let the best of your collection go to people who actually like pinball and could appreciate great games.

#81 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

Glad you let the best of your collection go to people who actually like pinball and could appreciate great games.

Yea, these were games I kept because they were unsellable because they're, you know, the best of williams etc. Then I realized they just arent as fun as the modern stuff. Sold them, bought back a bunch of sterns I sold. My game room is still full, I have $50k in cash I didnt have, and am enjoying pinball way more than I use to again.

#82 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Yea, these were games I kept because they were unsellable because they're, you know, the best of williams etc. Then I realized they just arent as fun as the modern stuff. Sold them, bought back a bunch of sterns I sold. My game room is still full, I have $50k in cash I didnt have, and am enjoying pinball way more than I use to again.

I usually think you're a genius. But this is just way off the mark, mon! In a house with ACDC, WOZ, and LOTR, what do most people play the most now? The Funhouse I restored last summer. It's just completely addictive (and infuriating)...just like old video games like Donkey Kong can keep you coming back for 25 years. Yes, it's nice to have the bling and action of newer games, but there's nothing like the charm of a well-designed older game every now and then.

#83 4 years ago

Like what you like, who cares what others collect?

I have friends who really appreciate my 1980 Ballys. Some think they're boring. Either way I buy them for me, not them, though they're welcome to play any time.

#84 4 years ago

My error, thinking of another machine.
Happens with "old age" I guess.

#85 4 years ago
Quoted from centerflank:

Who were you before?

I have always been the "same person".
The same name for those that were highly active in RGP. Google will find me. The collector with the "dinner plate sized BK2K tattoo on his back".

Most people in the industry back from the 90s-00s know of me, and I dealt with most of the distributors in the PNW, parts suppliers, manufacturers, or resellers at some point. I also tested sample games. I lived all over the world. Retired from military service a couple years ago. Activity in pinball was impossible due to repetitive combat tours. Done now.

#86 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Like what you like, who cares what others collect?
I have friends who really appreciate my 1980 Ballys. Some think they're boring. Either way I buy them for me, not them, though they're welcome to play any time.

The "Early Ballys".
There is nothing like having a full line-up.

EBD, Xenon, Centaur, Medusa, Fathom, Embryon, Vector, Elektra, Skateball, Spectrum. Maybe a little Hot Doggin' as well.

Partial to Paragon myself, but slightly different "era" per say.

True collectors items of the golden days of pinball art.

#87 4 years ago

66.3% of the people that voted for Metallica have never even played IJ.

#88 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

I just sold off Medieval Madness, TOTAN, CV, Theatre of Magic, Cactus Canyon continued, Star Trek next gen, champ pub, Shadow all the last 6 weeks. I came to a realization that the stern games are just way better when it comes to rules.

I did this last year , sold tom ss cv rs totan

I got met LE acdc Luci tron and waiting on a perfect sm to come along.

And I got an eye on TWD the code looks like it got really good.

#89 4 years ago

Easy choice for me IJ because it's the greatest theme ever and it's a 90's williams pin. These pins are the best playing pinballs around don't kid yourself people.

#90 4 years ago

Most of my games are 20 yrs old. It's my era. I would put an IJ in the lineup, but I've also seen Metallica back in the day. 8K+ is just a tough pill to swallow

#91 4 years ago

This is one you can't compare. I have a IJ and love it for the theme, I also have newer Stern games and love it for the flow and feel. My IJ never has problems. My stern's do have sometimes (opto's, flippers hang) nothing serious but they have problems. The issue I have with the stern's is the softness of the wood of the playfield. In time I get a lot op dimples in de playfield, my last Stern is a 2010 SM so maybe that has been changed.

#92 4 years ago
Quoted from HeavyMetal247:

Most of my games are 20 yrs old. It's my era. I would put an IJ in the lineup, but I've also seen Metallica back in the day. 8K+ is just a tough pill to swallow

Agreed. Luckily neither game is anywhere near $8k.

#93 4 years ago
Quoted from PeterG:

This is one you can't compare. I have a IJ and love it for the theme, I also have newer Stern games and love it for the flow and feel. My IJ never has problems.

Well, in all fairness, I can't agree with this. While you may have been lucky, IJ is one of the most problematic machines out there. That's the only downside.

#94 4 years ago

I love IJ for the theme and art, and I also like the gameplay. I really enjoy all the modes, even the video ones! Of course, I grew up in the '80's, and if you were a kid in the '80's, Indiana Jones was one of the coolest movie trilogies ever (I heard rumor that their was a 4th film, but I will ignore it - LOL). As you can see, there's a lot of nostalgia in the whole Williams IJ pinball machine for me, and I love mine, and I would never part with it unless I absolutely had to.

However...

The Stern Metallica is also very good. Actually great!! Probably my favorite DMD Stern ever. Dirty Donny Gilles really knocked it out of the park with this art package. The playfield art is awesome. The playfield design is great too. It's extra great in the LE and Premiums with some of the more interactive toys, but the pro is no slouch either. I would be happy playing either of them, but if I could, I'd spend the extra money for the Premium. The rules of Metallica are great, and the game is action packed, and the ball can really whip around the playfield. This does make IJ seem at least a little slower and laid back at a minimum. The two areas I think Stern has really progressed pinball since LOTR and TSPP is in the area of game action. The ball is never gone from view or out of play long, and the sling shots and mystery hole kicker really knock the ball around at high speeds. The rules are also really nice and they offer a lot to do, all while jamming to some pretty good Metallica tunes. If you like frantic action and are not in love with the IJ theme like I am, it would be hard not to recommend the Metallica.

The bottom line is that in my opinion, these are both two great games. One of the best 90's W/B DMD's against one of the best Stern DMD's. I can see pinball fans starting to gravitate more to the fresher feeling fast frantic (lots of f's) action games like Metallica that Stern is putting out now. Almost all of us have played IJ for years and years. We know what to expect from it. This makes Metallica feel fresher, because honestly Metallica is fresher. I do love both of these games though. I want them both, LOL.

#95 4 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

I just sold off Medieval Madness, TOTAN, CV, Theatre of Magic, Cactus Canyon continued, Star Trek next gen, champ pub, Shadow all the last 6 weeks. I came to a realization that the stern games are just way better when it comes to rules.

3 years ago, I sold IJ, TZ, CFTBL, TOTAN replaced with Tron, IM, AcDc premium, STLE, XMLE and TSPP.

The only game still in my collection from 7-8 years ago is PotC. (Incidentally PotC looks like it jsut came out of the box).

IMO the Stern are built fine and are very fun to play, I still don't care for Metallica, so I'd vote for IJ if it was in CQ condition.

It's all subjective, but I don't buy the argument that Stern games are falling apart after a few years. One guy had a IJ on route with 100K plays and it still looks Very Good.

#96 4 years ago

I like 90's WMS games AND modern Stern games......call me crazy.

Current lineup - Two 1993 Williams SuperPins and Two very recent (one still in production...other just finished it's 3rd run) Stern's!

#97 4 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:

I like 90's WMS games AND modern Stern games......call me crazy.

Sounds like you like games, and not brands. That is totally crazy.

#98 4 years ago

We're arguing about two games in the top ten that are right next to eachother in the rankings.. You can't lose either way, but you'd be better off with IJ

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