Yes. There is an up charge of $100 or more, depending on the number. #97 was $100, #7 was $300 directly from PPS. I would ask your distributor for more details.

I don't have a distributor... looks like I might need one

I'm very sorry I ignored your post until now, a friend here has pointed out I never answered your question.

Rick has mentioned this issue in many of the MMr threads but here is the quote from his blog on the subject. There is a lot of good information on the game there (http://www.planetarypinball.com/category/mmr/):

#2) Flipper Strength Adjustment – now in the control panel! We learned this at the TPF show with the variations in voltage, so now flipper coil strength can be adjusted up/down via the control panel! Settings will be 0 from the factory and you can adjust up/down from there!

Do you think it's a bad thing you can adjust the flipper strength? Was it a bad thing that Sega (Stern) includes an option for coil strength? This has been around before and for a long time, but this time it sounds like we have the option to just increase the flippers and we have more than just low medium and high.

Line voltage makes a difference. On a Williams game, at a show, it takes quite a bit for flippers to get weak, but it does happen. But they also had reset issues that could pop up if your line voltage was low as well.

Rick saw a problem, and he solved it. Not only do we not have to worry about the flippers being weak at our house, at a show, if we sell the game and his outlets, but we also don't have to worry about reset issues. More is better in this case.

thanks for the review mike, nice job

is it just me or does the display that they chose to go with look a lot better than the ones that stern currently uses? I didn't notice any "gaps" (pun not intended towards mike, hehe) between the 16x16 pixel blocks used on the stern LED displays (image re-posted for reference).

mmr display.jpg

Aren't the MMr's using LCD screens (like a tv), not LED displays (with the blocks)? That is a big difference and the only way you can get many possible colors.

yeah the lack of gaps is because its actually an LCD, like colorDMD.

yes, and that could be and would explain why they look a lot better than the LED displays. thinking about it now, I thought I remember rick stating something about being able to colorize the display (aka like colorDMD is doing it), but that it would be an enhancement potentially later down the road.

edit:
it would really be interesting to see the actual size of the lcd panel that pps has chosen to use in the MMr's and see if they are the same form factor as the original dmd's or a widescreen display where a 1/3 of it is hidden behind the panel (just like the colorDMD solution)

It's very likely the same size/style color DMD uses. To get the width necessary to fill the DMD window, that's what you have to use.

Yeah, I don't know what kind of numbers you'd need to have custom glass cut, but I imagine it's a lot more than the MMr remake can use.

Yes I do. Because WPC had a better design and that didn't require any menu adjustment. I mean honestly, what strength would everyone choose for their flipper to be? I'm guessing 99.9% of people would answer "Strong". A well designed operating system should be able to adjust to some operational variations automatically without the need for a menu setting.

Think of it another way. Everyone loves car analogies here on Pinside, so here is one. You are shopping at a dealership and you get in for a test drive, and in the middle of the dash is a big push button that says "Press here to improve fuel economy, increase horsepower, and reduce emissions". What would be the point? Who would drive the car without pressing that button??

In any event we learned that at the factory the adjustment had to go to 8 to feel strong. As long as the scale doesn't max out at a mere 10 I think everything will be fine...

there are buttons like that in cars

adjusting the flipper strength upwards is not some panacea like in your flawed analogy. different people will prefer different settings for various reasons, from preserving the playfield and plastics, to difficulty, to simple preference.

your position that the ability to adjust flipper strength via software is a bad thing is patently absurd.

A more accurate version would be, 'Press this button if you want more horsepower, shorten the life of the transmission, and decrease your fuel economy'. Not everyone would push that button...

Maximizing the strength of flippers isn't necessarily a good thing. Williams had different coils for flipper strength and used the coil that made sense in a pin-by-pin basis. Capcom managed to use the same coil and adjusted the strength in their software.

With MMr, we get the best of both worlds, the coil selected from the original design and adjustable strength through software. Hard for me to find a problem with this option.

Steve (in Escalon, CA)

There is? I worded my example carefully, ONE button that does all 3 things. I get that there are real world buttons that do one thing or the other (Sport mode versus Economy).

It did thought. I took an IJ to a pinball show that worked great at my house but played like shit at the show. The flippers were weak.

We are getting too bogged down in the addition of the menu option that was added. It's become a distraction to the real issue, much like shiny trim choices or plywood cabinet bottoms can be a distraction.

Here goes:

I think if you have access to the IP which is the WPC Fliptronics II system and you decide to build your own system using engineers that have designed a single pinball machine (10 years ago), then having a menu choice for flipper strength is a necessity. And also patently absurd (I hope you don't mind that I stole that from you?).

Then I predict you are going to really enjoy your new MMr, it will be like you are at a pinball show all time.

I'm in the wrong line of work.

Not now honey! Can't you see I'm drinking!?!

You're really going off the rails now, you realize that? You sound like a 9/11 truther nutter. "Adjustable flipper strength was an inside job!" WTF are you even talking about with that comment?

Maybe there is truth to the rumor that PPS will remove the flippers all together and that the auto-launcher will be replaced with a traditional plunger. MMr will play like a Pachinko machine?

You said it, again and again and again. Everyone has heard. Now its time to sit back and wait and see if you are right. If so you can and will dance for joy. If not a couple of hundred pinsiders will stalk your every post for about a year ; )

My TZ wasn't working properly when I moved into my current house. Random resets and some other minor issues. I moved it to the other end of the lineup and put it on a separate plug. Since then, no issues. Some of these machines are temperamental and if I can make some adjustments to suit my environment, that is a step forward.

Since I posted that I wouldn't reply to his partner in crime he did go off the rails a bit. But the good news is patently obvious is very easy to spot

And sport/economy/off road/etc mode will make multiple adjustments, just as the one you described.

After all the banter and bullshit, that is the beauty of it all, isn't it? At the end of the day, we will know who's right. At this point, it could be anyone, but I'd bet $8,000 it's PPS.

As others have noted, more is not necessarily better, especially with pinball flippers. Flippers should be "strong enough" and not just "really strong." Game action can vary quite a bit with flipper strength (and pf slope), so having the adjustment is great. All games should have this. Personally, I think the optimal flipper strength is where you can just make the ramp with a *clean* shot. That makes the game properly challenging in my book. Cranking up the flipper power to max so that any shot into the ramp entrance flies around the ramp is kinda lame, from a player's perspective. (As an analogy, I dialed my WOZ munchkinland flipper strength *down* from the factory setting, so you can just barely get a double loop with a clean shot. This makes that mini-pf much more challenging and interesting, rather than a woodchopping series of easy double loops.)

Disclaimer: All IMHO, and I like to PLAY pinball.

Adding a strength adjustment can be a crutch and doesn't do a whole lot of good if the underlying mechanics and electronics aren't up to snuff. We see the mechanics are the same or aftermarket reproductions (I assume, based on Lloyd's pic), but the drive and power supply definitely is not. Also, simply increasing the power stroke duration (what the new software adjustment does) will indeed result in stronger flips at first, but then the heat builds up, and ultimately you wind up with a flipper that is actually weaker than it started out cold. You know, heat/resistance, friction, expansion, tolerances and other scientific stuff. Turn it up to 10 and it'll be just like a Stern.. the first 2 minutes the balls are flying off the ramps, but after half an hour of intense play, the balls are lollygagging around. PPS's design also lacks the dedicated power supply that Williams' flippers got. If it was important to WMS's engineers, it's important to me.

The good news is, you guys don't have to read my posts about it anymore! We decided to cancel our MMR and spend the money on an IMR instead.. (remake cannibalizes remake.. film at 11!) It will have Stern flippers, but also half the cost (and a few fans should fix it right up). My concern and interest with MMRs flippers has gone from "paying customer" to "peanut gallery" land, so frankly, they could drop a pair of Gottlieb sys3 CatchAll(tm) flips in there and it wouldn't bug me in the least. There will still be 4000 or so MMs with the best flippers ever designed kicking around out there, including the one in our basement. I liked some of the proposed features (better sound) of the new game and was tempted to swap the old one for it, but not going to risk the flippers being inferior.

If anyone is still looking for an LE, the available queue just ticked up by one.

Classic.

Nothing wrong with a game setup like that; to each their own. But, don't assume strong flippers make for easier games. The few extra rattled ramp shots that make it around don't even begin to make up for the instant death rebounds off posts and targets that strong flippers cause. My MB plays like that and after almost 4 years still has only one HS above a billion. HUO, clean and waxed, perfect flippers with -29 coils, super sensitive slings, and if you miss your shot, you will likely pay Some games are fine a bit slower, mainly cluttered or non-fan games like TZ, CFTBL, etc.. but I like the fan games (AFM, MB, MM, ACDC, SST) to play fast!

Good advice!

Good points. (LWJP--stock--is the most brutal game I know for instant death!) Bottom line, it is still nice to have the setup option. Not sure that turning up power will lead to all the problems you mention. Why? because the power curve can be programmed for the flipper (I think they use pulse modulation?), with a standard lower hold strength, and the coil itself can be designed with some headroom so it won't overheat at the higher settings. (At least, I hope the power profile and physical coil would be designed to avoid heating/fade!)

What is the beef with this flipper thing????? Let me tell you I would rather pay 8k for a great remake of a classic game and have new operating system (current with todays technology ) including a lcd display that will last, than pay 12 k for a polished up with new playfield molested old piece of equipment with greater potential for 5 volt reset issues etc ect ect BLAAAH. I am going with the PPS MMR it is a dream come true to have a chance to buy a NIB MM!!!!!!! Thank you Rick!!!!!!!! and PPS

Rob

So 17 years of engineering progress means nothing to you?

Sweet!

Um ok...
image-2.jpg

How do the other "polished up with new playfield molested old piece of equipment with greater potential for 5 volt reset issues etc ect ect " in your collection feel about this ....

What I'm hoping is that the PWM is the main source of heat/fade in Stern games, and the fact MMR is using dual wound coils (which don't need that) will be enough to solve the problem. If the transistors, power supply and switches are functionally equivalent on the new game, the flippers should be the same. They got the most important part right, we'll just have to see how the rest performs long-term.

New != better ... IMHO PWM flippers are a regression.

What I know about electronics wouldn't fill a thimble, but my hunch is the same, that pulsing the high power is what causes Stern flipper coils to overheat.

Reading this post viper001 and metallik have convinced me. I just ordered my MMr. Thanks so much for this. I can't wait for shipping to start. Flipper issues? That is your serious concern? With all the issues I have seen with older Williams games, it would be a treat to have just flipper weakness. I AM IN !!!

I think it looks perfect. best damn $2400 game i've seen all week.

Seriously, I do sincerely hope your game is everything that you hope it will be and you have a blast with it.

Some things have to change. It's not 1997 anymore. The way the game feels and plays is an art. You can technically emulate anything, but Williams systems were not perfect (nobody said they were), PPS's (or Chicago Game's) greatest challenge is going to be using that emulation to also emulate the imperfections so it feels perfect.

Like any game before it be it Data East, Stern, Williams, Bally, the game won't ship perfect. But as long as the hardware is engineered correctly, it should be nothing that can't be corrected via software.

In terms of adjusting the flipper strength; Needed, not need, whatever the case may be, as long as you can set it so it's right, I personally don't care. Some adjustment there might ensure it's always playing correctly, or it lets people play it too strong or too weak, either way. I have access to a late model HEP MM restore, so that will be my benchmark. Maybe people will share their ideas and setups, I just don't see how this can be bad.

If something isn't quite right, they'll fix it, and I'm positive something won't be quite right out of the box.

It's difficult to infer true meaning in an internet forum but for the record my previous post to this tread was meant sincerely. I really do hope that games are great and everyone is happy with their purchase.

Just for the record, the reason I say $2400 game, is because gameplay wise. MM is equal to a $2400 game in my eyes. Nothing to do with build quality, could be the B/W version or the remake. doesn't matter, they both have the same rules and play the same.

I'm right there with you on my level of knowledge. I can only go on my own anecdotal data, which includes operating a bunch of Sterns on location, running tournaments that last 4+ hours of continuous use, with no weakening of flipper strength on any of the Sterns. Weird that so many people have different results.

That MMR with glossy black looks damn good, I wish there would have been a picture from the front too. Hopefully someone takes great pics in the next open house session

I was set on gold, but now I have to reconsider. Choices, choices...

I know. Not a slam on you, just a general observation.

I 've had AFM, MM, TOTAN, MB, SM, ACDC LE, LOTR LE, POTC, TFLE, AVATAR LE, TZ, TSPP,TRON LE, some of the best games around. 2 games were my favourite AFM & MM. To be buying a NEW MM again is a unbelievable.
I dont care what anyone says but paying 10-11k AUD for a Stern LE or 10k for a MM LE - decision was easy!
Ohh im going for original steel look- more hardy and better looking- Black trim looks cheap- reminds me of all the Sterns ive had. I loved my Sterns but heigh MM brand new - this is just phenomenal, one of the most addictive well made games ever made!