They should make billiards and poker simpler too because there are too many rules and it's too intimidating for noobs.
(Topic ID: 134047)
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Luther's Vendetta
B. Holderman, 2009
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Torrance, CA
Quoted from guyincognito:They should make billiards and poker simpler too because there are too many rules and it's too intimidating for noobs.
Actually those are perfect examples of where a relatively simple set of rules and materials leads to really fun games, with a lot of strategy and tons of great competitive aspects.
I know you're just being snarky, but you're kind of making my point. 
Quoted from beelzeboob:The problem, Lloyd, is that kids today have the attention span of a fig newton with anything that is simplistic. They need visual fireworks to keep their attention. I think that's why WOZ is so attractive to kids...they approach the machine like a moth to a flame. The problem is that WOZ is so damn hard to play that the lack of instant gratification (also an annoying trait in many of today's kids) makes them walk away too quickly.
The solution might be a machine with bling, a big LCD screen and lots of ball movement, but simple rules on the level of Congo. Collect the diamonds. Get to 100 for super multiball. That's something most kids can wrap their brains around.
But again...any single machine would wear off for most kids after a few days.
Can't believe there hasn't been Call of Duty pinball yet...
You just explained why I walked away from WOZ.....played around a dozen games with no real clue as to what was going on. And I have owned a ton of SS games!
How can a new player have a clue what to do?
Quoted from Aurich:My wife and I are playing through Rayman Legends right now. You should check it out.
There's a lot out there that's not Nintendo and not an online shooter though. Can't really beat being a gamer now, there's a style for everyone.
Rayman is frigging awesome. Now THAT'S a video game! I remember trying to finish Origins and having to hop from piece to piece of stuff falling out of the sky. Nearly threw my controller through the TV set. Incredible. Haven't finished Legends yet, though...
Ironically, my other thread is "basically" asking the same question as your stated poll:
- "Would You Buy A Modern Take On An Early 1980 Solid State For $4k?"
Except, mine offered options of 2K, 2.5K, 3K, 3.5K and 4K. As well as the option for "kits" at 1.5K.
This thread has many more purchasers at the 4K mark. My thread has mostly negative responses, with comments of not wanting dumbed down games at any price. Common sense would dictate that MORE people would be willing to purchase the SAME hypothetical product at a lower price point. I think it's best to take any of these polls with a grain of salt. 
Quoted from T7:This thread has many more purchasers at the 4K mark. My thread has mostly negative responses, with comments of not wanting dumbed down games at any price. Common sense would dictate that MORE people would be willing to purchase the SAME hypothetical product at a lower price point. I think it's best to take any of these polls with a grain of salt.
I added a poll because people would have asked for one if I didn't. I don't actually care what the poll results are, I hardly even look at them. 
This isn't a market research thread, just enjoying a conversation.
The reason why your thread is getting negative pushback is because no one wants a "home only" version of a pin. You mention that, they think about the gimped Costco pins or Fireball home or the like, and are immediately turned off.
I focused on the operator side of things simply because this thread was inspired by the Dave and Busters thread. But if I was actually in charge of a project to make something like this then I'd focus heavily on making sure there was a lot of collector value in it. Frankly choosing to chase just the op or just the home market sounds like a losing strategy to me. Either way you're cutting half your value off and leaving it in the dirt. Things are too bifurcated now as far as the market goes to not take a unified approach.
I really like the idea of buying 1980's style games, at a lower price point than 2010 style games. At the same price point or close, I really don't think many home buyers or operators will purchase. Of course you would want to sell to both markets - but this thread got pushed into "cost of a game doesn't matter - only earning potential". I wanted to see the non-operator response.
On a different note, modern games that have easy to understand rules - at least first level rules - are a very good thing. But you will still need some level of depth for them to sell well. But that extra depth can be handled in a way that it doesn't turn off new players.
Anyway - I really like the thread topic itself as I've pondered the idea many times.
I went to a barcade recently with a wide variety of machines, all in great shape. No one was playing WOZ, TAF or AFM but players were lining up for Bally Star Trek, Dolly Parton and Six Million Dollar Man. I don't buy the theory that players won't respond to simpler games - an uncluttered playfield isn't necessarily less challenging.
Quoted from TopMoose:I don't buy the theory that players won't respond to simpler games - an uncluttered playfield isn't necessarily less challenging.
Nah, they're not less challenging in the slightest. Frankly some old games are harder than a lot of modern games. People love "flow", but that often means having every made shot spoon fed back to the flippers. Nothing really wrong with that, but it often makes things easier. Older games have different challenges when it comes to ball control and shots.
Simpler just means more accessible, it doesn't mean there can't be depth. I'm not advocating this, but there's zero reason that a game with rules as complicated as ACDC can't be put into a layout that doesn't have ramps. There's nothing magic about a ramp from a programming standpoint. It's just a switch hit (or two).
So you're really only limited by imagination. You could design a game that's built around simple objectives, banks of drop targets etc. But you could build the rules such that skillful play is rewarded, where things build up, and precise shots count. There's no reason to go ACDC complicated. But that doesn't mean a risk/reward ruleset couldn't be developed that would bring a similar style of "cash it in, or keep building" gameplay.
I'm assuming most people have seen Brian Holderman's retheme of Mati Hari. Tell me there isn't a collector market for a game that looks like this? If someone said they were releasing Silver Bullet as a commercial game, with new rules and sounds, for $4k, I'd be in. Now I'd prefer a better layout than Mati Hari, 1978 is a little early, 1980 got better layouts, but just putting this up as an example.
Bullet-Holderman-11.jpgBullet-Holderman-13.jpgBullet-Holderman-09.jpg
Quoted from Aurich:I'm assuming most people have seen Brian Holderman's retheme of Mati Hari. Tell me there isn't a collector market for a game that looks like this? If someone said they were releasing Silver Bullet as a commercial game, with new rules and sounds, for $4k, I'd be in. Now I'd prefer a better layout than Mati Hari, 1978 is a little early, 1980 got better layouts, but just putting this up as an example.
I hadn't seen that before. Very cool.
Agree that Mata Hari (while it's a great game..) probably isn't the best layout for 2015, as you say there would be better layouts that would lend themselves to advanced rule sets. Just off the top of my head, Seawitch and Meteor would be single level, single ball games that could be greatly enhanced with multi ball play and advanced rulesets.
rd.
good post, Aurich, i think a visual aid will go a long way from separating this idea from Vacation America and The Pin.
i especially like how there is enough insert-free space on that playfield to allow for some art of actual size, without it becoming a cluttered mess of various inserts and messages. i mean compare it to something like Medieval Madness -- the latter looks so cramped and busy by comparison. too many flashing inserts and labels vying for your attention. and most pins from the 90s on are basically like that. nothing against the game or other DMD games, it's obviously a classic and i love it, but i think aesthetically there is definitely something to be said for a more focused playfield. i bet it'd be more approachable for potential new players, as well.
(MM playfield for comparision)
mm.jpg
Québec, QC
Quoted from Aurich:I'm assuming most people have seen Brian Holderman's retheme of Mati Hari. Tell me there isn't a collector market for a game that looks like this? If someone said they were releasing Silver Bullet as a commercial game, with new rules and sounds, for $4k, I'd be in. Now I'd prefer a better layout than Mati Hari, 1978 is a little early, 1980 got better layouts, but just putting this up as an example.
Bullet-Holderman-11.jpg Bullet-Holderman-13.jpgBullet-Holderman-09.jpg
Well there you go, that's a great example of what you were trying to explain. If I could buy that to put on location, I would, then I'd have second thoughts about these rowdy drunks messing it up and I'd keep it at home.
Quoted from TopMoose:I went to a barcade recently with a wide variety of machines, all in great shape. No one was playing WOZ, TAF or AFM but players were lining up for Bally Star Trek, Dolly Parton and Six Million Dollar Man. I don't buy the theory that players won't respond to simpler games - an uncluttered playfield isn't necessarily less challenging.
I know I'm repeating myself, but again in a barcade setting I'd guess it was people going head to head, right? Much more fun when ball times are shorter, scoring is a little more linear and you can clearly see everybody's score at the same time.
I can't imagine having any fun playing against someone on a WOZ, I'd have enough of a hard time figuring out what to do and trying to keep the ball in play.
In a setting where you'd be playing by yourself (let's say the laudromat or an actual arcade, not barcade), I'd think the TAFs and AFMs would do better than the classic Ballys.
Quoted from Aurich:Nah, they're not less challenging in the slightest. Frankly some old games are harder than a lot of modern games. People love "flow", but that often means having every made shot spoon fed back to the flippers. Nothing really wrong with that, but it often makes things easier. Older games have different challenges when it comes to ball control and shots.
Simpler just means more accessible, it doesn't mean there can't be depth. I'm not advocating this, but there's zero reason that a game with rules as complicated as ACDC can't be put into a layout that doesn't have ramps. There's nothing magic about a ramp from a programming standpoint. It's just a switch hit (or two).
So you're really only limited by imagination. You could design a game that's built around simple objectives, banks of drop targets etc. But you could build the rules such that skillful play is rewarded, where things build up, and precise shots count. There's no reason to go ACDC complicated. But that doesn't mean a risk/reward ruleset couldn't be developed that would bring a similar style of "cash it in, or keep building" gameplay.
I'm assuming most people have seen Brian Holderman's retheme of Mati Hari. Tell me there isn't a collector market for a game that looks like this? If someone said they were releasing Silver Bullet as a commercial game, with new rules and sounds, for $4k, I'd be in. Now I'd prefer a better layout than Mati Hari, 1978 is a little early, 1980 got better layouts, but just putting this up as an example.
Bullet-Holderman-11.jpg Bullet-Holderman-13.jpgBullet-Holderman-09.jpg
That is just insanely cool.
Quoted from rotordave:Agree that Mata Hari (while it's a great game..) probably isn't the best layout for 2015, as you say there would be better layouts that would lend themselves to advanced rule sets. Just off the top of my head, Seawitch and Meteor would be single level, single ball games that could be greatly enhanced with multi ball play and advanced rulesets.
Yeah, little to simplistic. And just to be clear, I'm not saying remake an old game. Start from scratch. Take your inspiration from anywhere. I mean, it's a bit of an fantasy situation right? You get to take all the bits and pieces of the old games that you like, put together your own version, with drop targts and wild balls etc, and then enhance it will all the cool rule thinking that wasn't around back then. Partially because the technology just didn't support it really, and partially because pinball thinking has just advanced since then.
You keep the spirit. It's simpler to look at. You can get a certain amount of points and satisfaction from just keeping the damn ball alive, and hitting what you can. Knocking down drops, making shots, it feels good. But then you layer in some modern depth.
For example, look at what Lyman did with the Crank it Up modes in Metallica. Single ball play. The inserts tell you what to do. And you can build up and play the game of cashing in or not. You can light double scoring. All of that is totally doable in an old school layout. And it's really just an evolution of how you played those game originally. Flash Gordon has 2x and 3x score inserts, and if you can light them both it's 5x scoring. Get that going, light the spinners, rip them. But you get bonuses for hitting the drop targets in the right order, because of how they're lit. You get bonuses in Fathom and Centaur for hitting the drops in the right order, but it's fixed, spell the name or do the number count.
These old games had shit in them that was for "advanced" players. You can still have that. I'm not saying dumb it down to EM status. There should be modern code in these. Just not so crazy complicated. Because these are going to be challenging games to shoot. We're not looking for Keith's LOTR here. There should never be an hour long game on one of these. 
Quoted from Pinterest:That is just insanely cool.
Agreed. That game is in a private collection here on Pinside, the owner posts here sometimes. Maybe some day I'll see it.
I didn't open the thread with stuff like that because I was trying to get a response on a concept, without really sexing it up too much. It's not hard to excite people with something that looks cool like that. I wanted to hear about operators and new players etc. But this is Pinside, I was never intending for the idea to not appeal to home collectors and tournament players and good players. 
The only purpose to doing something like this would be to make it bad ass. Killer art. Instantly collectible. Great sounds. Challenging "one more time" ruleset. Sure, there are people who will turn their nose up at no ramps. But there are probably Iron Man and Tron players who will love it. A hard game, that kicks your ass? There's a whole fan club for that idea here.
But I already know what people here like. Making sure a game appeals to at least a % of the Pinside crowd isn't really the challenge. What's interesting to me is how could you make something that has less intimidation factor, more straight up accessible fun, and more fast competition than a modern pin for new players? And then it's a trojan horse, because there's actually real depth behind it. Which is why "real" pinball players would like it too. And if you play it enough, or start playing with some good players one night on location, you're kind of getting a crash course in pinball. So that you can then move up to games with ramps if you wanted to.
Also, after giving it some thought, I think the multiple start button idea is maybe not the right approach. I do think the start button should be moved up to the lockbar, like ACDC's cannon button. That just makes sense. But you only need one.
Instead you use the LCD screen to allow starting multiplayer games. And then you can have 4 players still, but make it easy to know that you're starting it. Pressing start multiple times wouldn't increase the players anymore. I swear that confuses so many damn people. We all have walked up to a game at a show that some poor newb has left with 4 players running, right?
You simply show a start screen on the LCD with the number of players, default it to one, and light the 2, 3, 4 (hell make it more if you want, I dunno) as you put in enough credits. Use the flippers to select them and hit start to lock it in. Instructions right there. Easy.
You put in one LCD screen on the apron, and one segmented display in the backglass. Maybe not even alphanumeric, just numbers. Those two together would be cheaper than 4 sets of segmented displays.
You track all 4 scores on the LCD screen, but display the current player's score on the backglass too, so everyone watching can see the score. Kind of best of both worlds I think, and still cost effective.
Bonus: the start button can actually be an action button. LCD screen says "Use flippers to choose # of players, hit ACTION to begin" or whatever, right? Then the button isn't just Start. So you can use it during the game. Smartbombs, etc become possible.
Quoted from MrBellMan:I'd buy that Silver Bullet/Classic Bally in a heart beat!
CPR and Brian Holderman should team up to make a kit!
Time for Greg Kmiec to come out of retirement. Seriously. Take Harlem Globetrotters for instance. No need to spend time trying to figure out what to do, it's obvious. It's a fun, challenging pinball game. I think you could take that layout and theme in any way you want and people would play it (and buy it). Another killer design is Quicksilver. Fantastic layout with super-addictive gameplay.
If you had a great layout that was challenging but not brutally hard I wonder if casual/new players would walk up and put money into it. Back in the day ANY new machine was a good enough reason to throw money in. Now I think you need something that people recognize which means licensed themes. Or you need something that's slot machine gaudy. Or gaudy-awful depending on your point of view.
The casual players that walk up to the Royal Flush at out league location play it for a few reasons: 1) it's in the main bar area, 2) it's next to the juke box, 3) it's $.25, 4) it's easy to figure out. They absolutely don't walk 25 feet into the main pinball room for a few reasons: 1) you can't smoke in there, 2) the games are intimidating, 3) the games are $.75 (or $1.00 for my old Star Trek). The patronage of this bar/restaurant would lead you to believe there would be a line out the door to play the Road Show but nope. That's pinball.
Pinball has always been in an evolutionary state. Designers trying to one-up each other and people clamoring for new features. Flippers, sound, gadgets, multiball, electronic scoring, alpha-numeric scoring, magnets, multi-level playfields, DMD screens, animations, Pinball 2000, color changing lights, deeper story-like rules...and so on. Where's the evolution? P3 is an evolution from what I can tell although I haven't played it. The virtual pinball games that I see at shows get a lot of eyeballs, not sure if they actually sell or not. Lots of people play pinball on iPads and such.
I think the impact of social networking has been missed by the pinball manufacturers. I should get an update in my newsfeed that somebody just beat my high score on The Hobbit. I want to play against a guy in California on my game in Virginia (and have him send me money after I win, ha!). I want the game settings linked and standardized including the playfield pitch and whether it's level. Accelerometers are cheap nowadays. For that matter I want a game that auto-adjusts playfield pitch based on whether I choose Easy, Standard, or Elwin at the beginning of the game.
Quoted from bjsilverballs:Pinball has always been in an evolutionary state. Designers trying to one-up each other and people clamoring for new features. Flippers, sound, gadgets, multiball, electronic scoring, alpha-numeric scoring, magnets, multi-level playfields, DMD screens, animations, Pinball 2000, color changing lights, deeper story-like rules...and so on. Where's the evolution? P3 is an evolution from what I can tell although I haven't played it. The virtual pinball games that I see at shows get a lot of eyeballs, not sure if they actually sell or not. Lots of people play pinball on iPads and such.
Pinball can evolve in more than 1 direction. Some might not stick, but the ones that will....
I like the re-skinning of pinball machines to redo the art, but I want to see it go deeper with a ruleset rewrite, trying out things not thought of before with the playfield. Or even pull out parts of the PF & try something else.
Quoted from bjsilverballs:Pinball has always been in an evolutionary state. Designers trying to one-up each other and people clamoring for new features. Flippers, sound, gadgets, multiball, electronic scoring, alpha-numeric scoring, magnets, multi-level playfields, DMD screens, animations, Pinball 2000, color changing lights, deeper story-like rules...and so on.
And as long as you kept up with that evolution you were fine.
But if you're a new player, or a player who wanted off the evolution train and stopped playing the new games, then I don't think all that stuff is really all that welcoming. It's cool! I think the envelope should keep getting pushed. Obviously I'm helping design Alien and we're cramming everything we can into the BOM, and it's going to be chock full of ramps and toys and screens and magnets and LCD screens and 4 flippers etc. Can't wait to play it. Not a modern game hater.
But I love my 1980 games too. Some flippers and a ball and things to hit and bounce off of are just fun. That formula just doesn't get old for me. And I think it still has a place.
LCDs that replace DMDs are laptop screens. They're considerably larger. However, there's also extra hardware on a ColorDMD, that's where the brain of the system lives. It has to interpret raw DMD data and process it into colored dots. They're all assembled, you get all the cables, mounting bracket, etc.
Then there's the hundred+ hours a game generally takes to be colored. Plus all the programming that allows increasingly complicated animations to be done. Lots of time there.
On top of all that, they want to make a profit. And for all the work they've done they deserve it. You can probably find a raw LCD screen in that size for $80 on eBay. That's not what you're buying with a turnkey product though.
So no, a rules card screen isn't expensive. And the game hardware would natively talk to it. So for this simple game concept (I need a catchy name for it) it would be ideal. Inexpensive. Full color. High enough resolution to put rules and explanatory text on.
I actually started work about a year ago on an iOS app that was just a simple video of gameplay features. It was just going to be for my own personal use. I was going to make a sleeve on the aprons and stick our iPad minis in them when we had parties or whatever, to show off the rules and features, hopefully help newbies pick it up. Never got very far, but I'd love to hear it exists in another form.
Melbourne
Quoted from Aurich:I'm assuming most people have seen Brian Holderman's retheme of Mati Hari. Tell me there isn't a collector market for a game that looks like this? If someone said they were releasing Silver Bullet as a commercial game, with new rules and sounds, for $4k, I'd be in. Now I'd prefer a better layout than Mati Hari, 1978 is a little early, 1980 got better layouts, but just putting this up as an example.
Thank you for the shout-out Aurich! Just to set the record straight, Silver Bullet was the work of Brian Holderman and myself - we both worked on this re-theme as partners from conception to completion.
We originally conceived of Silver Bullet with the possibility of retail conversion kits in mind, but unfortunately that never got off the ground. Anybody looking to license Silver Bullet, or hire Brian Holderman for your low-cost original title, we would love to hear from you.
Seriously, Brian Holderman is a fantastic artist who has done some work for Stern as of late designing merch (t-shirts, hoodies, etc.). I believe he still has a handful of Silver Bullet backglasses for sale in his store - reverse screen printed on glass, just like mom used to make. Brian's website:
http://www.bholderman.com/
Link to the Silver Bullet thread with a little more info:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/silver-bullet-new-custom-conversion-game
- Mark Baker
Hoppstädten-weiersbach
So let's talk about what would separate such a simple game from the old games we now out of the 80s?
Simple to learn and understand, cheap to build, hard to master. But if you want to attract people to play such a game you still need a lot of bling.
It was the right thing to do for JJP to add more flashers in The Hobbit! A game can still be overwhelming cool in sound and light but still be simple to understand. If the color changing GI and inserts are not confusing players, they should set a mood but also help to understand the rules. A very good example is the "Thunderstruck Mode" on the AC/DC Prem/LE. The light is blue/dark (I still hope the enhance this in an update with the GI!!!) and you see a clear white arrow that moves from side to side. I think that is a clear and fun way to show you what to do!
And light effects should show you a clear reaction to your hits and reward you if you have done something right. In modern games you sometimes have to much show that isn't related to the gameplay.
Quoted from dmbjunky:TopMoose, was that barcade Zanzabar in Louisville? They have all the games you mentioned. That was where I first tried a WOZ.
It was Zanzabar in Louisville! I visited a couple of weeks ago. They have an impressive lineup.
If I had $1 million to waste, here is the direction I would personally try:
Take a Stern Catacomb with some slight modifications (which I'll explain)
http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=469&picno=47822&zoom=1
Smack a Jurassic Park license on there, and the storyline mimics our Raw Thrills Jurassic Park Arcade game.
Capture the dinosaurs (who are loose running around an island), and then return them to Jurassic Park safely.
Game has full HD video in the playfield and backbox. I would just pull the work we've done from our Raw assets or use movie footage.
Each of the 4 drop target banks represent a different dinosaur. Pick the most famous ones (raptors, t-rex, spitter, teradactyl). Complete the bank to light the spinner shot the 'capture' that dinosaur. Each of the drop target banks would be dressed up with a custom figure that could shake when the targets are hit, or jump up/down, or [insert something physically entertaining].
The spinner shot would divert into the saucer that is over on that side, which would be picked up by a Helicopter via a magnet (think Rescue 911). It would pick it up and move it to a ramp that will eventually feed the ball back into play for multiball which would start immediately after this happening. During multiball you have to clear the target bank of the dinosaur you captured, and then shoot the spinner shot again to safely place the dinosaur back in the park.
Center of the playfield would clearly show the dinosaurs species that have been "Captured" (starting a multiball with that species lit), and those that have been "Rescued" (scoring the jackpot during multiball with that species lit).
Mini-Wizard mode available for all Captured. Wizard mode available for all Rescued.
Throw it some other random stuff - that "Spot 2" target on the lower left can be an electric fence (magnet in front of it throws the ball anywhere, or holds it to be able to display something/start something). I'd also replace the two lanes in the upper left with a saucer (similar to Golden Cliffs on Paragon), but it has to be something physically dressed up where the player knows the ball is going into 'something' (insert visual effects/excitement for getting in that saucer) so there's an emotional response.
No extra balls available, no special, no match, no ball saver. Also, you're allowed to buy-in and continue where you left off. Not WMS buy in for 1 more ball, but insert another $1 to simply start the new game where you left off. If you want to put it in the budget to amp up the difficulty, you put the drop target banks on individually resettable coils and make players clear them left to right in order to qualify that dinosaur to be captured.
Start button on the lockdown bar, start button also plunges the ball . . . no other buttons needed besides the flipper buttons.
Full HD video, plenty of places for the ball to be held in creative ways to be entertained, physical action all over the place, the layout of the jet bumpers will help casual players complete these banks of targets just from the ball bouncing around, and you don't have to worry about the typical shot-post-shot-post of today's designs. The wide open angles allow anyone to spray the ball around, have a blast, make progress in the story line, and have some cool stuff happen via the display, loud ass speakers, magnet throwing the ball around, helicopter taking it to another place, etc.
Here's a video of it in action if you haven't played it:
Start at 5min and watch "THE BALL IS WILD" pinball at it's finest.
Quoted from Silver_Bullet:Thank you for the shout-out Aurich! Just to set the record straight, Silver Bullet was the work of Brian Holderman and myself - we both worked on this re-theme as partners from conception to completion.
Oh right on Mark, I didn't realize it was a collaboration or I would have given you credit. Man, would have been a killer conversion kit.
I'm a big fan of Brian's. The Luther's Vendetta conversion is awesome also, but since it's an EM I decided to not post it here, too much potential confusion.
Quoted from jawjaw:My issue is games like that Silver Bullet look better than they play. If it was something like $4k, I rather spend another grand and get a fully loaded modern game.
Well in this case I partially agree, in that Mata Hari isn't really a great example of a killer layout. It's still a throwback to the EM era of symmetrical playfield design. But I totally disagree with the better games. Flash Gordon is awesome. Not to sit there and look at, to play.
Quoted from ifpapinball:If I had $1 million to waste, here is the direction I would personally try:
Hey Josh, I'm curious, if you put on your IFPA hat for a moment, what would you think about your Jurassic Park game as a tournament player? Viable or not really the right kind of game?
Quoted from Pimp77:Yeah, 10 hour campaign but 100s of hours in multiplayer. Multiplayer is where those games shine.
Or people could play real multiplayer FPS that actually take skill like Counter Strike
Quoted from Aurich:Hey Josh, I'm curious, if you put on your IFPA hat for a moment, what would you think about your Jurassic Park game as a tournament player? Viable or not really the right kind of game?
For competitive pinball it's amazing how most games work just fine for that environment. [Insert video clip from the ending game on Scuba from CAX]
Catacomb is already a fine game for tournament play. Modernizing the rules to give it some added strategy (along with a 100X increase to the entertainment value of the game) IMO would make it even better. Knowing that you don't want to start that multiball yet in my JP style ruleset because jackpots are worth more after capturing multiple dinosaurs before you get to the Rescue part would all be part of that strategic play mechanic.
This era of games to me just has that magical 'Ball is Wild' thing going on where a player doesn't have to necessarily hit shots to be entertained. Good players still have the opportunity to play more efficiently/effectively, but no shot is safe (like many of today's games where I play for an hour, and a casual player plays for 60 seconds). At some point in that Catacomb video the player literally hits like the left slingshot flailing around, and the ball bounces up into the left kicker and completes 2 banks of targets all on its own. That's the stuff that never happens today with the ways playfields are currently laid out.
To emphasize how pretty much any pinball game 'works' for competition . . . here's Mata Hari (since that was brought up previously) at it's finest.
IFPA12 World Championship final from Sweden a couple of months ago. Just absolutely incredible play by both players.
Quoted from ifpapinball:Modernizing the rules to give it some added strategy (along with a 100X increase to the entertainment value of the game) IMO would make it even better. Knowing that you don't want to start that multiball yet in my JP style ruleset because jackpots are worth more after capturing multiple dinosaurs before you get to the Rescue part would all be part of that strategic play mechanic.
Yes, I love that. It's something the old games just didn't really have that you can expand with a modern ruleset and CPU. I really do believe you can balance new player accessibility with good player depth with that kind of rule choice. Anyone can play and get somewhere, but the good players will work towards riskier but way more lucrative strategies.
Quoted from T7:Ironically, my other thread is "basically" asking the same question as your stated poll:
- "Would You Buy A Modern Take On An Early 1980 Solid State For $4k?"
How is this ironic?
you know what is brought up over and over? the whole button thing. It sounds stupid, but maybe there's truth to that. Even myself playing many eras of pins I sometimes forget where the button is supposed to be (I don't usually look because I'm used to the common left side start button), but you have some exceptions like early sterns that threw a start button randomly on the face of the coinbox, and then Bally which has the silver (drinking faucet) button that sort of blends in with the coinbox.
Since 2007 we've had the iphone which tried to simplify and dumb down a smartphone with touchscreen and a single (escape) button at the bottom. This simplicity is the norm now. User interfaces are now judged on how long the learning curve is.
And then the whole bringing back the player display and ball number as a bulb isn't such a bad idea either. In tournaments, often games aren't clear how many players you've even added because it might flash the player screen very quickly then immediately jump to the scoring (because of limited dot space). Scared stiff is famous for playing tons of animations in modes, and showing bloody scoring during play, and you have no idea what ball the other team might be on so you know how long before it's your turn. And you know what? Bulbs behind art looks really great. Look at a haunted house attract mode, or a gottlieb silver slugger with the ball animation:
Quoted from CrazyLevi:How is this ironic?
Like rain on your wedding day.
Quoted from toyotaboy:you know what is brought up over and over? the whole button thing. It sounds stupid, but maybe there's truth to that.
I honestly think it really matters. I was talking with Jody from Stern about this a bit ago, and I don't know if they seriously considered moving Start to the lockdown or not, but we talked about how it would make things so much player friendlier.
We have a great barcade here in LA called 82 (shout out to Molly) and it attracts all kinds of people who've obviously never played pinball. And time and time again you have to go up and help them start a game. They put in their quarters and then just stare at the game in confusion. They simply don't see the Start button, flashing or not, because it's set up so that you don't have it in your line of sight when you're standing in front of the machine.
And man, modern games can really suck when it comes to showing player numbers and scores. Stern's Star Trek sucked with that, but they did help it some when they added the sounds for "Player 2 step up" etc. I remember playing 4 player games on mine and people totally losing track, since the DMD shows an animation on ball start, and loses all the useful info. If you're talking with your friends and not watching the play carefully you lose track. Especially since long ball times are boring to watch, so you tend to chat instead.
We don't have that problem on Flash Gordon. Even on 5 balls it just keep moving, because even a good ball isn't more than a minute or two often times.
I think going back to the old school with things like player #s and ball count would be genuinely useful, not just a throwback ploy.
Quoted from pezpunk:how about we don't raise a nation of people who use female anatomy as a metaphor for weakness? testicles are far more fragile than a vagina....
Political correctness has no place in pinball 
Had the Mini Space Shuttle game at Maker Faire this last weekend.
Even that little thing, man I had to tell so many people "to push start in front"
If you think about arcade games, the player start was always ABOVE the controls, or the player buttons themselves in stuff like TMNT or Simpsons.
And they can't find the START button, imagine how confused they'd be at how to start a multiple player game! That's money lost.
I will kick you all in the balls if you derail this thread!
Quoted from benheck:If you think about arcade games, the player start was always ABOVE the controls, or the player buttons themselves in stuff like TMNT or Simpsons.
And they can't find the START button, imagine how confused they'd be at how to start a multiple player game! That's money lost.
Yes, exactly! Multiplayer pinball has to be the worst commercial UX in existence. Especially on modern games, ironically, since by losing the separate score displays you take away one of the visual cues that such a think is even possible.
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