Those are the games you hope your friends buy!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

I think you would need smartphone-sized displays in front of each major shot with text/animations indicating the function/significance of the shot. For example, the display in front of a ramp could say "shoot 3 times to activate "X"" and have checkmark boxes that would indicate completed shots.

The basic idea I like, but some parts don't Even make sense. Why 5-ball? That's too many. Your average player doesn't even WANT 5 these days, and a skilled player will be able to win extra balls.

Why 2 player? Won't save any real money and it's been 40 years since a two player game was made, seems like it'll confuse operators who dont want to think they could lose profits.

And a step back to numerical displays doesn't make any sense from any standpoint. Even alphanumeric at this point.

In principle it seems like a good idea but in practice this idea is always a failure. Gottlieb's "street line" in the early 90s was not a success. Neither was capcom's Breakshot. Whoa Nellie? Seems like a success but that a boutique game with an expensive price so it isn't relevant to this discussion.

Operators said they wanted a simple, less expensive game so gottlieb built "title fight" and "silver slugger" and operators bought whirlwind and dr dude instead.

how about a small lcd in the apron with a slide show of instructions and shot map.

Which 80's SS pins could Stern re-invent. Meteor, Flight 2000, Magic, Nine Ball, Seawitch, Stingray, or Trident? Slightly upgraded, they could be fun. What would be the price point to be worth the effort?

Lighted inserts get the user 90% of the way... callouts and DMD/LCD animations also help, but I can't argue against improvement. Per ramp/shot would be TMI as most modern games have each shot counts toward multiple goals, and it would become cumbersome to read that all over the playfield, but a better job can be done with an LCD... JJP is doing a nice job of this with the rules charts, but more mid-game progress would help, including an indication of possible points which is arguably the most under-documented piece of information on all modern games.

Maybe it's time for someone to make Swords of Fury 2...the Return of LIONMAN!.

Don't hold back! Tell us how you really feel...

Even better would be a touch screen on the lockdown bar. Put it next to the start button so you can't miss it. Then you could scroll through the rules (similar to the Pinball Arcade app).

There are several reasons to do this:
Reduce costs, including animation design and programming
Game Rules will be straightforward, making explanations on a DMD unnecessary
Novice players rarely look at DMDs anyway, and experienced players rarely need to
No one is impressed by DMD animation anymore. It's not going to attract players to the game.

I think its time to make a "less maintenance" pin.

A while back, a spanish company made a pin with lucit playfield that couldnt wear through (played differently however with more speed and spin), and no mechanical switches, just electromagnetic, which didnt fail nearly as frequently, were not visible on playfield and hence did not slow ball down.

Im surprised no one has evolved this.

touch screen would be nice but get trashed quickly on site but could still have the apron lcd but with possibly the ability to score through the rules using the flipper buttons and a Arduino.

Didn't Stern already try this.......

It was called The Pin!

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I think an unstated point here is that there can be more than one market. You maybe the luxury car market while there maybe a yet to discover/tap market of a different product level.

This is what stern tries to balance with their different editions but the different markets have not necessarily flourished independently. Probably because they are too close to each other... The pin is closer to that separation point.

as I've already said, Gottlieb tried this in 1990-1991 and it was a failure. Pretty much this exact approach (single level, no ramps, simple rules and display). They made 6 of them and each sold less than the previous.

Why would a similar approach 20 years later do any better?

Wasn't this the idea behind Capcom's Breakshot?

My point is pinball is all entertainment. If it isn't fun and attractive people are not going to play it or buy it. When it comes to cars, appliances, or other pruducts, some people just want the basics to get the job done. There is no such thing as basic, lowend pinball. Well, there is as pointed out previously with The Pin. Nobody wants that. So what we want is a fun pin cheap. That's what the used market is for.

It's true. For this concept to have any chance at all to succeed, the retail price would have to be super cheap. Like $3000 NIB. And as far as I can tell that's just impossible.

I'm late to this thread and lack the years of experience and knowledge many of you have.

My IM does attempt to help the player with helpful hints like "Spell Iron Man to start fast scoring" "ramps start bogey mode" hell even the Monger lid tells the player that the spinners raise Monger. But new players still just flip away even after I try to explain some basic rules or strategies. It's way worse on my Avengers where cradling and aiming is way more crucial.

So it's both home users and route players that you are trying to bring to pinball Aurich? Because while a simple game with a recognizable theme may attract some new people at a bar to pinball, I still say 4k or so is too much for average Joe to buy for his game room.

Trouble is the pin was one of the most hideous pinball designs ever, ever, ever!

Even if it came free with a box of Cheerios it would still look cheap

Correct!

Mark Ritchie said that initially Capcom wanted to go back to old school pinball and the result was "Breakshot."

The year was 1996.

Bottom line, it didn't work.

But would you put a dollar in it on location?

The real question isn't "Would you spend $4000" on this.

The real question is, can you put this in a Walmart and get kids to beg their parents for money to play?

Exactly - every time people bring up "pinball's too complex, let's make a simpler version" - it's driven by niche nostalgia, not the reality of the market. Stripped down 80's style pinballs don't sell well. Cheaper home models don't sell well. This was the logic behind Retro's King of Diamonds....you can find old RGP posts from the guys who made that game complaining that Stern games are too expensive and no one understands them. Their Retro KoD was a total flop. Stern's still around. No one wants to spend big money on something "old". The guys into old pinballs will just buy the old pinballs.

The P3 has a steel ball and a physical playfield, it just happens to ALSO have a screen.

The idea isn't to remake an old game like King of Diamonds, but to have a game that PLAYS like King of Diamonds but has music, sound effects, and artwork that appeals to a young audience.

Like imagine King of Diamonds but with modern hardware, and instead of collecting cards you're collecting Minecraft resources, and you have Minecraft artwork all over it.

Minecraft? The worst art ever in the history of video games on a pinball? No thanks. The young audience will never "save" pinball. Arcades are too irrelevant for them and they'd rather just play actual Minecraft video games.

This really isn't the discussion. He isn't dissing it cause he doesn't like those games - we are discussing if this is a viable commercial option. All evidence over the past 25 years shows it isn't. Every attempt at "retro"/stripped down commercial pinball has been an unconditional failure. Gottlieb gave it an honest effort and finally surrendered, started doing DMDs, and was out of business in 5 years.

The only changes or innovations that have been a SUCCESS over that time period has been upmarket pinball - higher priced, more complicated stuff. Even Whoa Nellie falls in that column.

A $4,000 Firepower-style game with a relevant license....I just don't see it. Sounds like a disaster to me. And I LIKE those kinds of games.

So you are saying if they can do a "Whoa Nellie," except charge $2500 less, AND crowbar a "popular license" in there...your extensive polling reveals it MAY not bankrupt whatever company is willing to try it?

It doesn't sound viable at all to me. Again, you keep saying, "well it isn't for everyone."

That's not the discussion. Why do you think the above is possible to build and sell at a profit, and why do you think it would have any chance at being a success when similar "stripped down" efforts of the past have met with nothing but failure? You are basing this all on your poll?

Pinside polls are pretty useless. Get about 100 location operators in a room and get their take - my guess is you'd have about zero to five percent who would think this is something they'd want to buy.

Winner.

Do me a favor, there's untold decent Gottlieb games. Why don't you just buy EMs for simplicity and retheme.

I thought most games these days were built for all types of players. You know, for anyone to be able to play but actually have some depth so the game actually lasts more than 5 minutes. The next thing will be phantom flips and auto plunging so you can just sit and watch it play itself.

I've been reading this thread with interest. Perhaps the naysayers are right; it just isn't feasible. Still, I appreciate the question. I've watched many, many dozens of people play pinball in our house either for the first time or at least for the first time in one or two decades. They gravitate toward games that are clever but also comparatively easy (at least at the beginning level) to understand, e.g., WH20, FH and Cyclone. TZ, on the other hand, leaves them cold. My wife is another example. Her favorite game by far is our Gottlieb Vulcan. She even asks me to play that, which is quite a breakthrough. Essentially, it has three objectives, all of which can be explained in a minute or two. She doesn't have the slightest interest in playing pins with complex rule sets. So, such persons do exist, though they might not be well represented on Pinside, and I am happy to be able to provide them with pins that they'll enjoy.

"It's more fun to compete"
I think location games need to be a social experience. 10 minute ball times don't encourage that, neither do not seeing the scores of all the players most the time, neither does getting a bazillion points out of nowhere (to the casual player) when you do one thing and almost no points for a long ball time some other times.
I'm not so sure the stripped down part of the story is the answer here, but certainly putting the focus back on the multiplayer aspect would help.
I don't think that would be legal but just writing "It's more fun to gamble" on the apron would help a lot for location games

Aurich - Which question are you posing?

- A simpler pin - to sell to operators, that will do better in commercial locations

- A simpler pin - to sell to home users at a cheaper price

Yeah the poll is kinda confusing. I'd consider buying a few of those pins to put on location, but probably not for home.

I think people are missing the point making comparisons with Break Shot and the Gottlieb "street-level" games.

Josh outlined the recipe in the earlier thread:

None of those earlier machines came close to achieving this. Machines will have to be made much more appealing and intuitive. And probably quite a bit easier.

I don't think this is going to be anything any of us would want for the home, but could draw in the uninitiated and they could later "graduate" to our more complicated machines.

Have Stern partner with Jarvis and his experience with the magic "formula" for location gaming.

As an anecdote for what people seem to gravitate to...

Last night we had some people over to spend the night. One of them asked, "Would you believe if I said I've never played a pinball machine?" "Yeah." I've got games ranging from Atlantis (on loan) to LOTR (also on loan, funny eh?). What did he spend hours, I mean hours, including first thing this morning turning on? Tommy. He tried every other game at least once but he kept going back to Tommy trying to learn it. I think what people are drawn to might vary regardless of the rules. I showed him some ball handling tricks on LOTR thinking he might play more on that but Tommy had him the whole night. He must have played it four or more hours going from never touching a machine to his hands being sore. Only an anecdote, but when others come over, they usually make it to the older, simpler games, but I think non-pin people (or beginners) like the bells and whistles so I'm not sure simpler machines would make a comeback outside of collectors. However, if enough were put on location for people to see and play it is possible simpler machines could draw people. Hard to say.

Fair. I wouldn't have gotten involved here but "Gottlieb sucked" thing shocked me a bit.

Let's take a game like F-14. Cheap to buy , simple rules and addictive, prime example. It's a difficult game to start with but if it was too easy it would be a waste of time playing it.

21 std leaf targets?, couple of em kickers, leds, few flashers, trough, kickback, yagov, plunger, vuk, spinner, single bumper, wireforms, 4 flippers, slings. Cheap!

I'm pretty confident all of these parts could be re-arranged into something new with an lcd/dmd for well under 4k. You don't need much more than that for a game to be fun.

If this was Blue Peter, we could give everybody these parts and say go. You'd be surprised what could be done with just these parts alone. Programming F-14 games rules would take a couple of days max. Display & sound is a different story but wouldn't take forever.

Lol you have done me a favor actually, feeling quite inspired for a new game now.

Have you played it? (Serious question) ...because a lot of people seem to change their mind about it after they have played it, they realize it is physical pinball with a display on the playfield surface rather than a video game.

As others have said, I believe the P3 has the greatest chance of providing what you are proposing. Firstly, it's modularity means that a developer could much more cheaply (and therefore with less risk) have a go a producing a game geared to new players.

Furthermore, it's large playfield display can show very clearly (with arrows, etc.) what the player is supposed to do and give text instructions. It can play by itself, so it could virtually (and physically) play a simulated game as a teaching tool.

It's also easier to set up mini-games on the P3, so players could choose games with objectives which are easier to achieve, depending on whether they were a new player, intermediate or advanced.

Imagine a P3 game with a simple upper-playfield module with shots that are intuitive, i.e. in-line drops leading to a scoop or saucer, drop targets in front of a ramp, etc. I'm talking about shots where you can easily see what you have to do just by looking at the playfield ('oh, I need to bash down all those things to get to that hole'). Then, couple that with an easy to understand theme and graphic instructions on the playfield display showing where the flipper buttons are, what they do etc.

Reports so far have been that kids flock to the P3 at shows, so that could be a good indication that the format might be popular with entry-level players.

Edit: Also, people forget that the P3 is totally modular so you can potentially take everything off of it, flippers, middle-playfield module and upper playfield module, so that you basically just have a flat playfield with nothing on it except a screen, a blank canvas. Then you can build it back up with any flipper configuration or playfield layout you want. It offers a huge amount of flexibility and potential, all that is required is for people to design games for it, whatever kind of games they think will be successful.

just earlier today, my daughter and one of her friends were trying out a pool /diving board / waterslide we built together. it's a new addition to the home we've been working on together. great fun.

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back on topic -- Aurich, i think this is a fantastic idea. the idea isn't to make a retro pin, nor to make a cheapo pin, but to make a cool pin that is *simplified* both for the sake of cost, as well as accessibility to non-pinheads. you are right that these games are very intimidating or just nonsensical to the uninitiated. many assume there is no skill involved, and that there are no goals beyond making the thing make noise and light up. show them something a little simpler with clearer goals and it could be a gateway drug to the LOTR's of the pinball world. simpler, but not a cheap toy like The Pin, and not intentionally regressive for the sake of being old-timey like Big Juicy Melons. i am on board with this vision, man.

i also think the 1 player / 2 player button on the lockdown bar is brilliant. everyone everywhere these days understands how to start a 2 player game on an arcade machine, and your idea hooks into that. only pinheads understand "press the start button twice for two players". it's just plain unintuitive crappy UI. i guess it's stuck around purely because of tradition and laziness on the part of designers. once you mention it, it's kind of ridiculous it hasn't been improved on by now. if the idea is to get more people to pick up the game, making starting a game less baffling ought to be priority #1.

and of course there's no reason a simple, fast, challenging game couldn't appeal to real pinball aficionados as well.

if i were to disagree on any part of your initial missive, it would be about banning ramps or any areas where it wasn't obvious where the ball is going or how to get there. i think a fundamental part of the appeal is figuring out how to get to the different areas, figuring out where this hole leads or whatever. i mean obviously a more affordable pin will probably have to forego complicated subway systems, secondary playfields, and whatnot, but i don't think those things necessarily drive away new players. i think those things are part of the draw, so long as you can find a way to communicate the goals more clearly.

I think I understand where Aurich is going with it and Craig added some supporting comments and like others have said it may not be for all pinsiders as it would be a game that could be mastered quickly as not deep enough in rule set.

Aurich's question and vision is for a game that is simpler and affordable to be sited, targeted for the inexperienced person visiting a barcade, arcade, corner shop or pizza place etc. But also for the experienced player to enjoy with the bonus of being available for the home market but the focus is sucking more new people into pinball. Yes this type of game may not be for everyone.

When I had a few pins (down to one now) but when people come over they still had to ask to understand the objectives to games like the CFTBL and IM which are easier to explain and they picked up on it quicker than some of the other deeper games. As for older bally games quite a few people enjoyed skateball as they just focused on bashing all the targets down.

I think if Aurich's vision pin could be a almost self explanatory game (still can have rules and be a challenge and fun to play) similar to a 80's style game but with the 90's playfield angle with leds, music and more modern sounds and call outs to aid in what goals to achieve with 1-2 ramps, drop targets, pops and to keep the programming cost down a numerical display as in the end it only needs to display a score all wrapped up in a 90's style cabinet. But in saying that for the casual player they don't really care about the score unless competing with mates they want to feel like they advanced through the game a certain percentage and then want to beat and improve on that. I know for me when I play a sited game that I have never seen or tried before I want try and grasp what to do quickly and not throw multiple dollars into it just trying to work out what to do and rarely look at dots or care about the score. Beating a score comes in to play when playing against mates and a DMD helps a little with the rules in a break in the game but when you are concentrating playing the ball and is fast in play rarely do you look up at it.

Imagine Joe Hiccup (imaginary person and sorry if it is someone) designs a secret machine (say - Time Thief ) and puts it on site as a tester and no one at Pinside knows about it. What do you do without any knowledge of how to play.
- First - you would hope is the art is killer to draw you over,
- Second - if an original game and theme that grabs your curiosity / interest / imagination.
- Third - Next a cool attractive mode and sounds affects to grab interest but say at a automated reduced volume as many pins run silent until played.
- Fourth - say you push the start button without any credits the game goes into a brief rule explanation with lighting up the playfield in those zones that it is explaining which could be over say 1 - 2 minutes and could even do a auto ball launch and auto flip to explain a few things
- Fifth - a small lcd in the apron to auto scroll rules and shot maps

As for the design it could be original theme like - Time Thief (random thought) but to aid in explaining. Fist the design would have say your typical pop bumpers which could be the noise, bar fights, break in to a building, then one set of 4 drops for the YEAR, one set of 5 drops for STEAL, one set of 4 drops for ITEM. On the speaker panel could be one numerical score panel but in addition a perspex panel or in behind the translite 10 year dates and 10 items to steal. The rules could be simple, knock down YEAR first, then STEAL then ITEM, say knocking down item before steal might activate police and you might have to hit the ramp shots a number of times to escape. The ramps could be used as well for spelling out say TOOLS inserts to then complete the last set of drops for ITEM. Not collecting TOOLS activates the police in which you have to follow the arrows to escape. With the goal to beat the game and steal all the items from all the time periods. You could have 2 displays for 2 players but while one player is playing the second score display acts as a timer. So goal 1 is to beat the game, 2 is to have the highest score and the 3rd is the best time to complete all the steals.

This is what I would classify as a simple but challenging game and one that even a dmd guy who rocks up to a bar wants to play and beat or have in their game room to watch and introduce new players to pinball on.

So the art, sounds, music light show be modern in a modern cabinet with 2 ramps, drops / targets but the rules relatively simple but the dmd does not come into play which reduces the programming cost. The translight can be your dmd in displaying what to get next with lighting up details in order but be a cool attract mode visual.

Just thoughts but reckon if done right could attractive people over to a pinball. Translites now look cool but are static and could be used to explain the path like Safe Cracker - never played but looks cool. Lots of gamers like that progressive game play.

Most of my pins are simple already, I like it and so do most people who come to play them.
Bashers are the future! In a stressful world, escapism in a simple game is great.
Just don't do a licensed theme, please.
WNBJM is the " best game ever "