If they keeping making games like my Mustang Pro I'd keep buying NIB. I've had mine for over a year now and I haven't had one single issue. The quality of the build is perfect, code is perfect (as far as I've gotten into it) and the price delivered with a few distributer add on's was $4700. I can't complain at all.

I believe Mustang also has an optional "2 minute" mode, where games are 2 minutes long instead of 3 balls. Then of course is the easy multiball on the drag race default stage. The thing is, I think those attempts at reaching new players still weren't successful, and experienced players no way in hell would want a 2 minute game.

as josh says... The metric that matters for operators is earnings...

This thread has the premise that these simpler games would be successful for locations. That means they must earn.

The thread keeps referencing examples of older games that represent (at least large portions of...) the concept.

Translated.... We already have the games that would test this hypothesis...

Are operators out there making a killing and converting new fans with these games... No

Have people tried? Yes... And it's been more of the status quo... And a model that worked given the cheap costs involved - but didn't bring back location pinball or bring in mobs of new players.

So... Why are we speculating here? The market to be tested is already available. The games to be tested are already (largely) available. And people have already tried this.

Why propose building new stuff to do what we already have?

Gary stern was all about these concerns 10 years ago and the home market hated it... The location market didn't stop its slide... And when the home market demonstrated with jjp that people WOULD pay more and demanded more high end games... Stern pivoted to chase the high priced games built for collectors.

Breakshot came out while the market was still relatively strong and tested most of the game play theories here... And it didn't work

Why can't we shut this line of thought down with just some sample game testing? Modify the signage on a simple SS... Change the start button... And go

And abandoning licensing would only hurt this model... The point of licensing is to be that draw to the game for the passer by. If you are trying to grab attention and get someone to give you a shot... You want that draw

I just find the irony in that this is what stern kept arguing was the most important and the existing players largely don't care.

Breaking your proposal down - it could be mocked using a two player em with some add-ons driven with simple controllers that are out there. It's not even outside the reach of hobbyists.

The only thing lacking is proving the manufacturing cost... But as the industry vet already highlighted that's not the most important part.

This thread hypothesizes what the market would do. I'm just saying its within arm's reach and in core concepts already been tried. I don't think the hypothesis of how the market would react is true.. And have lots of close hits to say otherwise

To give an example. Where we play the op keeps a royal flush up near the bar. It's even set at .25

They really like having the game there... Randoms play it occasionally... But it doesn't get ureka moments from players. They don't keep playing more. It doesn't work as a gateway drug to the room of Wpc games they can see right in the next room.

The fun you say is already there in some games.. But it appears inaccessible. Examples like this show that discovery is not the breakaway point needing solving.

If you look at scenes like Seattle where a huge YOUNG and diverse player base is surging... It wasn't a new simple game that made that happen

Barracora, great game. Multi ball,
No ramps or toys.
Very deep rule set for its time.

Lots to shoot at.

Great art package.

Easy to learn, easy to play, hard to beat.

I think this is what the op is talking about.
Not barracora itself, but that kind of game in general.

My didn't mean to infer RF is your Grail... The point is your concept relies on delivering on elements missing or problems to overcome.

Cost we've already discounted...
You mention simple and approachable... The rf example was to highlight that alone isn't enough to breakout
You mention the ss games... These are about to be routed still today and they don't achieve the breakout

This leaves your differentiators of 2 player and smaller tweaks like color coding or add ons like light shows.

I find it hard to argue those would create a tipping point.

Your elements are mostly out there... It's going to take adding something different - not just stripping down to change things.

Or throw something out there more innovative or something not already proven to be not enough

I wonder what whoa nelly would cost without the 'art' cabinet. Granted, Whoa Nelly without it would be lame - but I just mean a game that simple, parts wise in a standard stern box with spike.

Vacation America, The Sequel

Is this more a question of, If a game was built new today, for operators and home, that was well done, but "simple" and retailed at $3995,
would this spur more sales, and or more operators, locations, growth?
Is the Model better served at $5995 or $9995?
Which is better for long term growth, or better for short term gain?

I think the only way to tell for sure is for someone to stump up, make one and see how it goes.

In the "stern reruns classics?" thread, I suggested the way to go was to "remake" classic games like SEAWITCH but bring them to the modern day.

SEAWITCH 2099 ...!!

Same game, same layout .. But the modern lights and new features, like drop all the drop targets and the game adds a ball. Etc etc. You can do so much more today than you could in 1979.

I'm happy to move to Chicago for 6 months to help out ... Come on Jared, I know you're reading ... Hook me up and let's make it happen.

rd

I was responding to the question "Would you purchase..." My answer is still no. I don't believe those games were intentionally simple. I'd argue they were pushing the limits of available technology of their era. They are only simple because technology has moved on and we have the benefit of a rearview mirror nostalgic view of an era that will never be recreated.

Maybe I'm wrong... do the designers of those pins feel they dumbed them down or were they exercising max capability of the available platform? Several of those designers are still active today. Did they abandon their sensibilities for a "balanced" game? I don't think so. I think they're still designing to take maximum advantage of technology at hand.

Man I think these types of games are terrible. Ramps were invented. They didn't have them on old games because they didn't realize they could do it or they couldn't do it. Now they can. Those old games are simple not because they tried to make them that way but because that's all they had available to them at the time. I think games like fathom are just old and best left to the past. Can't imagine ever buying this stuff nib even for $1500-$2000. No f-ing way. I couldn't be more out.

The problem I see is simple / cheaper games don't seem to be what sell. People in the hobby these days have money to throw at games and the companies are happy to take it. With lower runs they want higher profit margins. Talking with my local distributor a month ago while picking up a KISS for a friend I asked him about sales. He said that all people seem to want it the LE versions and not many pros.

So Stern likes it because it ups the profit margin on a game. And obviously it is what the people want since it is what they are ordering. I know you are talking about a much simpler style. But look at Spooky selling out RZLE. No game play difference and people are willing to throw money at bling. People are paying top dollar for games they have never played so why wouldn't companies keep taking the cash.

Also as an older collector prices freak me out. I have never bought a new game. I was use to the few hundred bucks a game for the older stuff. I rather buy a beat up player.

I'm surprised it took 115 posts for you to come here and say that.

rd

No. Why go backwards

I had a Bally Playboy with a modern Stern and it would have almost no $$ in it. They like to look at it and give their opinion, but wouldn't play it.

I actually think it's time for a pin with a fourth level. Game of Thrones, maybe?

And yes...I know about Pinball Circus. I'm talking about mass produced games that actually exist.

you beelze....like this many

110131multiblades.jpg

In fact, now that you mention it, Art...I wouldn't mind a mini game inside a see-through coin door as well.

Also, those who forget the past . . .

Remember Silver Slugger. From the IPDB Notes section on the game -

First of the so-called "Street Level" games, which were an experiment by Gottlieb towards designing a simpler, single level (no ramps), slightly smaller and cheaper game for operators who thought pinball machines were too expensive. They did not sell very well overall, and only six models were made before Premier returned to games with more sophisticated playfield designs.

Well, Aurich....what if more money was put into licensing......something you can share.

Would a game with the hottest trend, released faster, that are trending with young demographics
grab a commercial audience?

Sure TWD and GaT are 2, but many quick movie releases were released in the 80s, and today its a safer
bet to go longer for a success with a global audience.

Would a Generic kids Game, ready for Art, released in the Movie theater for Minions, reboot a generation?
Same layout, like Shrek, and FG, be used several times for several kids movies?
Or AntMan, Avengers, Super Hero of the summer? 5-6 different art packages

Then Sports. How about a Baseball theme again, but for each city again, or each star in a city.
each sport.

TV Shows showing after 2 seasons to have hooked an audience rather then 5 or 6 years, and target marketed?

Scoring with some video, art and plastics change. The game is about scoring not animations, and we see how fast with browser
vocal and music can be changed....so the game play and points, rules, etc change little.

I understand and see Marks and others perspective, and certainly to the Poll, we may not buy one, but would a low cost game, with
changing art packages, help growth?

Your wish is granted! kinda

Without permission but with joy, Jeff, PimballPimp, put a basketball court inside this game.....close to your wants!

But a game like this, it has drop targets, a VUK and tunnel would be easy, update lights, sounds video screen, and
a Basketball game exists for every market....

Certainly, even as a giveaway at a game or for marketing, like TWD did, more people would know.

Is Advertising and cross branding/licencing more, then the actual full game play that we look for a market?
I would think those that have never played would still find them fun, with a small update.

Harlem-Globetrotters-31.jpg
DSC02890.jpg

I guess I'm not onboard with that either. I watch my kids play xbox, ps4, hell even iphone app games that are far more complex than the deepest pinball available. In fact, they like exploring, getting killed, trying new techniques... whatever makes sense for the game at hand. They'll spend hours doing it - not because its simple - but because its hard.

I agree they don't do the same thing with pinball. I don't agree that they think its too complex. They just simply don't care. Making the games more simple doesn't fix that.

OK, so what you are saying is because there are more lawyers involved in licensing, costs go up, time is wasted, and things cost more?

(My apologies to the attorneys out there...all in jest, I rib my brother all the time in doing this as an attorney, is in my nature)

Sry for my bad english.
I wouldn't buy a simpler pin and I wouldn't play one. I would buy and play a more fun pin!
We need a pin that is the equivalent to the early days of the Warcraft / diablo computer game. RPGs were complex beasts for a few nerds, Blizzard came and they found a way to bring those cornered genres to a mass audience.
They not only used the simple "easy to learn hard to master" way, they found a way, that every step on the way from "easy start" to the "hard to master" endgame was still fun! That's why Blizzard games are so much fun for a mass audience.
And that's why games as MM or AC/DC are loved by so many players. But I still think it's the job of the designers to make this even better in the future.
Steve Ritchie knows how to give you the feeling that you have to make a certain shot in a game, he knows how to make a shot something special for the player. But he often frightens new players "PLAY BETTER!!" Keith and Lyman know how to make complex rules fun. But there are still holes in the design of many games. Sometimes the step from the curiosity of casuals to start a few games to the endgame fun when the know the rules and could really play the game is to big. "PLAY BETTER!!!" I am born 1974, I always liked playing games and I don't have a problem to lose. And in the end you will lose on every pinball game. But you should always have the feeling....there is just one more thing to do and perhaps with the next game you could get it. You need a motivation to go on, so games with enemys are often so good. The player shoud have an antagonist, and he should always have the feeling that he can beat him. Many modern games feel like grinding. And there often is a limit that I could reach very early, but an endgame that is to far away for me.
The other problem I see, not so much for me, more for the casuals is that games are overwhelming complex in the beginning. Perhaps we need something totaly new for new players. Perhaps a game tutorial! Something you could select, so that you don't go in the regular game mode. Something that takes you by the hand and let you try certain fun features in some kind of mini games. In AC/DC the Song Modes are mini modes, Hells Bells, you shoot only the bell. Or Woz brings you the color horse mini mode. But around those goals is still to much going on for new players. A LCD monitor could bring you something like these minigames in tutorial form for to complex games. Perhaps we even need a tutorial so that people that never played a game before could be tought how you should play a pinball game. As I started to play pinball, there were games in every pub and people that explained how to play the game. The casual new player still try to hit the ball with both flippers. And when it goes out through the side or between, they say "Boring game" "Got no chance"...... and they walk away. Perhaps they need an even simpler tutorial as an option in the start. As an example, the tutorial starts and you will get the ball on the right flipper and you have to shoot it up the left ramp. And you will only go to the next step if you hit the ball up, pressing only the right button......and so on.

But what I still think is, we don't need "simpler" games. We just need games that are simpler to learn to play and games that are fun to learn for new players. And games that keeps being fun no matter how good you get. The games should find more complex ways to help you learn them.

Didnt Capcom try this with Breakshot? Wasnt that one of the last (if not the last) game they produced?

I agree with much of that. I don't agree that taking away the complexity fixes it. I think pins are headed the right direction with the HD video display. Thats how you might fix it... a tutorial of sorts on the display. Right now the games using HD screens are showing a ton of eye candy (and I love it), but they aren't doing much as far as tutorials. However, the potential is there and its far more suited to explaining what to do than an old alphanumeric display will ever be. Still doesn't make the kids care.

You could also just skip marketing all together, no advertising, and just put your product on the shelf at Walmart in a white box. You'd save a ton of time and money. But when no one knows what your product is and is a product your potential customer doesn't even need.. so they won't seek you out.. Is this a smart decision to save money and just lower the price?

The advertising and marketing serves a purpose... its pretty risky to walk away from all that.

Yes, but in that same grain... Blizzard and friends were chasing a specific hard-core gaming market. Nintendo came along and reminded everyone that traditional demographic was not the only market out there.. and with their mini games and other novelties brought in all kinds of new customers.. so many so they didn't even need the traditional market to find success. That set the ground work for things like the games that ultimately dominate the iPhones, etc.

Now the gaming market is dominated by games that a decade ago would be considered a joke. But by expanding the market and demographics.. a whole new space was established.

So I think its plausible that a new kind of game could attract a whole new audience... an audience that could even dwarf the original 'hard core' audience. I just don't think the way presented is the way to create that breakout.

Sounds like they'd love pinball. Show them the way.

I have a "The shadow" game in my pub. It's a way to hard game for casuals and starters. I love it! But when someone new tries to play it, I often see, that they don't have a clue how to aim with the flippers. The ball comes down and they are happy to hit it with the flippers wherever the ball will go next. Pinball games are designed to punish this play style. But that doesn't help the new player to play it in the right way. So with my "The shadow", the new player will never find a way to see what I love in this game. The game even encourages the player to make the high risk shot, left ramp, in the beginning, with the bonus selection.

On the other side, my simple electronic dart game in the other corner of my pub has many options, so that even beginners can enjoy a game. 301 or 501, master in/out........So even children could compete and learn the game.

i played Woah Nellie at pinfest stepped up to it with great anticipation and excitement ,walked away thinking Woah Dudley!
this all just sound like the YUGO of the pinball market.

images.jpeg

What games of the 80s did better was the cause and reaction were always related. You had many little goals on the playfield, small tasks, but you always knew what you get if you can finish them.
How can a new player understand the round lights on the left side of the metallica pinball game? What should a new player do with the devil horn inserts on AC/DC? How should a new player understand that he will get 2 rescue lights on the left miniplayfield on WOZ if he opens the door there and goes in, but sometimes he could start a MB there?
I like those games, but even the good games are doing a bad job to explain the gameplay to new player. Yes the exploration of games is fun. But sometimes I have the feeling that there is not enough feedback for the player what they are doing.

To agree with Flynnibus above:

I have both Kiss machines (stern, and Bally) right next to each other on location. The older one has LEDs in it too.
The newer one makes at least 10 times as much money.....

Something that I think could help introduce new players is a better explanation of the game. And I'm talking something as simple as knowing to shoot at the Lit Ramps. I currently own a Demolition Man (but I've also witnessed this at Pins on locations), and this wasn't limited to just young players but "new" players of all ages. It's very intuitive for all of the players I've seen to bat the ball around with the flippers but 99% of the time for these "new" players that's the extent of the experience for them. When I explain to them to aim for lights that are lit up to accomplish various goals they suddenly understand that there's more to it than just hitting the ball and they start to enjoy it more. But if I don't tell them that then they seem to get bored after a game or two. I'm interested to see if having an LCD does a better job of that with these "new" players. I don't know what the answer is but perhaps a speech (or instructional mode). And options to disable or allow a more experienced player to cancel on startup. But I feel like something simple like that to verbally tell a "new" player what to do would help with experience and entice more "new" players to fully enjoy pinball (beyond just batting around a ball). I think the visual cues for an inexperienced player are too much initially, because they are 100% focused on not draining the ball and don't get (or give it) a chance to figure out what makes the game fun. But if it talked to them and helped explain it to them they may be more apt to throwing in extra quarters and truly enjoy the experience.

In Silver Sluggers defense, nothing sold that well in 1990.

You mean like 10,000 of Funhouse. And T2 shortly after.

Does anyone know what the Latino / Spanish guys think about pinball?
Something tells me they would embrace it.

Somehow I don't think the way to advance pinball is to revert back. What has made pinball interesting over the years is innovation, cool toys, and clever tech. We all want cheaper games but I don't think many want dumbed down games. I don't want more simpler, uglier displays. I don't want flat playfields without ramps and toys. I don't want simple rules that get boring fast. Give me something great. Blow my mind. Make me want to spend $10k on a machine with fantastic artwork, grand lightshow, and something innovative that no other pin has.