It could easily be priced less than $4K once a company has the manufacturing process down if they were producing and selling sufficient quantity of each game. It may not happen because companies would only feel it's worth the risk at the higher profit margin, and any startup is going to have lots of extra costs.

I've been considering this idea for the last 5 years - new pinballs that are 80's style pins, like Mata Hari and Paragon. I think it would be an awesome thing to do that could be very popular -> at 2K - 3K per pin. Higher than that would not see many buyers IMO.

Also - there is almost zero reason to make a game only 2 players if using a single display. The extra programming to handle 4 vs 2 is minor, and there are no hardware differences needed. The only way I would make 2 player only, would be a menu option to pick 2 player versus 4 player - so you'd still have 4 players available.

This is what jpop's Space Mission X game was going to be. A simpler stripped down game with alphanumeric displays.

Can't say I'd see this actually working. Pinheads would get bored with it if it was simple, and people who "don't know how to start a game" aren't going to magically be pin fans because the layout and rules are simpler.

This place is bipolar. Here people are claiming you can get 3 great 80s pins for 4k with money left over. In other threads space shuttle is a 2k game, taxi is 2500 etc. In the salt threads here sys11 are asking over 2k often and everyone says how that's a great price and it'll sell fast.
I don't disagree that to youy should be able to get several 80a games at 4k. Most sys11 aren't writer more than 1500 in nice condition, but that's not what purple who are selling them are asking or even being encouraged to ask.

Just talking out loud...

A NIB Stern Pro is ~$4500. It will likely have a theme that people relate to and may actually have interest in (getting non-pinheads to play Billy's Pinball Adventure is probably harder than getting someone to play Thor's Quest or something arbitrary). The 5-ball dilemma can be fixed by just putting it on 5-ball. The multilevel ramps/paths/targets/etc seems like something that WOULD drawn new players in - complexity mixed with intrigue.

I think the solution is to get the prices down a little bit ($4500 isn't terrible, but sub-$4k would be ideal) and to make at least one or two modes/multiballs VERY easy to start. I mean, TWD is just shoot he Prison like 3 or 4 times, right? MET is shoot sparky a few times. X-Men was hit Wolverine a few times. Stuff like that is actually pretty great for casual players.

However!

My wife is NOT a pinhead. You know what she wants to shoot at when she plays? Either a big bash toy or ramps. She's not aiming for targets or loops...She wants to see the ball go around the ramps or she wants to smack the huge toy and get a cool light show. Our non-pinhead guests are the exact same way. I tell them a few basic rules/goals, but they always go for the biggest toy or the coolest looking ramp.

I actually think the recent Pro models and features are a great step in the right direction. That said, I DO believe Stern should investigate $3995 as a price point to be more enticing to newer owners and ops.

Would anyone here pay 4k for a NIB centaur or fathom With modern tech splashed in?

I would in a second.

Just imagine that this idea would be pumping out games like those but with modern lights, sounds, etc like aurich mentioned.

I find the cost discussion amusing because ultimately it's about what the game earns ... Not what it costs.

We've had some drivers at Raw that sell for $1000-1500 more than others and it's solely based on the earnings potential of the game.

A game that earns $1000 a week and that operator won't care if that pin costs $3k, $4k, $5k, $6k. It's simply a numbers game for that ROI.

I've heard of operators that have paid for their Jurassic Park Arcade after 6 weeks worth of earnings. With that kind of earnings power you can literally charge whatever you want.

How many "locations" across the country have the "location" to earn that type of $ per week on a pin/arcade? 100-200? I could be wrong, but I can't imagine that the majority of locations earn that much a week. For their sake, I hope they do that some pretty good $.

I disagree, i don't think you have to have a licensed title, if you make a good game. Now granted your not going to get the say Kiss Army to buy it just because its Kiss. But you will get pinheads and operators to buy it if its good and also marketed well. Build excitement. Also i think you could still do a DMD or video screen to show you what to do. Some of the DMD's show you that you have to push the Start Button, what about going with the Big start button, similar to Data East Rocky and Bullwinkle etc...I also think you can have a ramp or 2, but keep it simpler where when you look at the PF, you can see where things are and they aren't hidden under a ton of stuff. Also i think bringing back the callouts to go with the flashing arrow's would be a good thing.

Totally agree with IFPA's post.

I also think if stern is really going to churn out 6 games a year, there's room for a an idea like this to see if they kill on location. I honestly think they would given a good theme to entice people to play.

Throw some of these in a barcade and after a few plays and maybe some help from us pinheads, non-pinheads can know just about the rules as we do, and then be into chasing the GC as much as us.

For example, there is a nice ACDC premium on location near me. I think it does fairly well from just people walking up to it and playing now and again cause it looks cool. However, when I go there for happy hours with work friends, they don't bother to play more than one game on it per visit because when I start to try and explain the rules, their heads start to spin.

When I am with them we usually play 5-10 games of EBD at least. Took them all of 5 minutes to learn the strategy, then it was all about competing with each other or the high score.

Although I think games like acdc have a place on location to earn well (obviously), having these simpler games (in brand new shape) available too will do wonders for getting more people into pinball.

The three or so people I've gotten hooked on playing pinball, I did from one long session of playing early SS games. Now when they see any pin they want to play it and learn the rules.

Start simple and work your way up.

I am mixed on the idea. I love the early SS games for all the reasons listed by everyone else. But those 30 year old games are basically a product of their time. The art, feel of the flippers, the mechanics, etc. That is what makes them feel different. Trying to recapture that same feeling today, I just don't know if it would work. Sure a game could be designed and brought to market, but that doesn't mean it will feel like the old ones. Look at Whoa Nellie for an example. Remaking Centaur or StarGazer? Those new games will be vastly different from the originals no matter how diligent the manufacturing process is.... just like MMR.

I am all for a new, much more simple game as Aurich suggests. However, the genie is out of the bottle and has been for many years. Even on location next to a new Stern, it just won't do as well.

Luckily more than that to keep us (Raw) in business.

I think the point of the D&B post was exactly that. When we land store coverage for one of our games with D&B that's 90 games sold to one customer. Sell them a twin and it's a GREAT day at the office. CEC alone is 600 stores. Cover those at 2up and you're off to the races. Main Event, Round 1, movie theatre chains, etc. That 100-200 number is wayyyyyyyy off base.

A "standard" pin...like a Pro? At $8500 I think you need to look for a new distro.

there are tons of pinheads with lots of early SS games at home and pay lots of money to restore them or have them restored.

Actually I kinda think they would be. Obviously won't be for everyone, but if you are hanging with friends that are interested enough to start one game on it, I'm sure their interest would increase once they learned the rules and played with others. Pretty much every game ever created works this way.

Didn't Gottlieb/Premier try this already with the 'street level' games?

Its not reasonable to cherry pick a few classic SS games and project their demand on a new, unknown title. Sure there are some SS games that are in high demand and can pull in sales prices close to $4K, but there are far, far more that you can pick up way cheaper. A brand-new SS-type game at $4K has zero interest for me. You can't recreate the nostalgia that drives demand for the classics.

Damn, That's great! Killer #'s!

I've owned games in my home for 5 years and I can't tell you the rules on most of them. It's not intuitive and "shooting the lights" does not always get you anywhere.

I love my C37 and Whoa Nellie because I can easily figure out how to play. However, my AFM is way more fun to play. It's a balance for me.

I wish the DMD had larger font instructions with pauses when the ball was in the shooter lane to explain what to do. Attract mode could also have instructions in large font that would be helpfull.

I find the current instant info system is not basic enough for new people playing my games. Mostly, they don't even notice it.

$4000 for features from the same era as when ET came out in theaters?

No way, dude. No way.

Technology has only advanced and gotten cheaper. There is no way on this earth a pin with the format and layout from the early to mid 80s with modern day solid state components should be that expensive. I just don't see it.

After seeing what Stern did with WNBJM?

Noooooope. No interest in all. Let them keep doing what they're doing good with..modern style pins.

*edit* Specifically, they made a specific decision to take out a feature that would cause a lot of butt-hurt with location and non-EM players - Gobble hole. I don't have ANY FAITH WHATSOEVER that they are willing to design a game that is brutal in the way that old EM's and early solid states were. It won't earn on location, and ops will not buy them. A re-releasing of an existing title is a whole different beast. I'm talking about original concepts.

If my life only consisted of doing nothing but pinball stuff, I'd attempt doing Centaur on Pinheck. Anyone got a spare machine??

This is what I was thinking as well. A standard pin is less than $5000, and is called a pro. There are so few pins that have sold for $8500, that it is a little ridiculous to try to make it sound like it is a real price point. Even LEs are probably close to $1000 less than that (I didn't call for prices on kiss, so not sure what they are selling for).

As for the topic, I don't think I would buy an 80s style pin at all, but it would have to be around 1/4 of the pro price for me to even consider it. I played Nellie at CAX, and there is no way I would pay over $1500 for that game. The Kiss Pro was way more fun.

He's talking about WOZ standard.

I apologize for repeating myself, and I have not stepped into the whitewood thread, Aurich.

If the Goal is a full featured game at 4K, and we all never agree on shots, layout, "better" etc, in all the debates,
then leaving that aside, there is one easy way to achieve this IMO.

My apologies to US labor first.
Like everything else we buy today, almost, move the production, eliminate the cost of a factory, and US labor undoubtedly reaching
close to $25 per man hour.

Standard Parts are cheap enough... Design kept here, but build the game in Merida Mexico, and Truck across through Texas.
A minor increase in transport, but 1/10 the cost of Factory and labor on the build side.

I have been told repeatedly from Industry, that this cant be done, "its not possible to assemble correctly a pin, overseas"
I question this on an assembly line process.

Now I pay from $.12 an hour to $.75 an hour in the Far East, and $1.50-$2.50 an hour in Mexico for labor.
(All depending on skill, and location too)

http://tacna.net/mexico-vs-china/

Wouldnt this, based on what is known, cut the cost on the bottom line of at least $1000 or more?

Insurance, labor, electricity, taxes, cost of real estate, etc.

Would a move like this allow a full featured $8000 game be down to $6k, and a regular come down to $4k again?

Of course, standard practice is to do this and keep the profit.

I know through the years I have had to move production from NYC, to Long Island, to out of state, to Mexico, then to China, and Malaysia,
and finally to rural China, Rural Vietnam, etc, as bids to department stores, chain stores, are valued by the pennies.
I have lost out bids over $.05 a unit.

If I am wrong in my logic, my apologies. Ill accept a new perspective.

The other answer from Pin Leaders is, "it doesnt matter, route owners and collectors are paying the price right now, why change"
Maybe a bit short sighted, but other industries have gone through a streamlining process of Inventory control, MOD, Sub contracted, and overseas labor.....Is the Pin industry a bit behind here?

Somehow I think that if pins were made overseas, the cost saving to customer would not translate. If pin makers can save 2k in production, there is no way they would reduce profits (just guessing). Games are sold at the price people are willing to pay.

A simple board set like SPIKE would make something like this possible because it is cheap and cuts out most of the labor for wiring the games. I would be down for a new Fathom with a simple LCD scoreboard instead of individual (expensive) displays.

Maybe its time you guys let Sterns pins rot in the box. They will raise the prices, put out incomplete code and build sub par pinballs as long as people keep opening their wallet to buy them. The same goes for golden boy Jack. Capitalism says they can charge as much as the market will bare. If they cant sell them they will lower the prices.

Many non pinball people that used to play pinball on location stopped playing because the games got to complicated. This has been stated many times.

A more basic game design could work well on location.
Also, it could do well in the home market.
Not so much for folks like us who are die hard pinheads but for those folks we talk to every day that say," oh, I used to love to play pinball" "I have not seen one in years" do they even make them any more?
This group that has a game room would be more likely to buy a game for their game room. The folks who have a bar, big screen tv,pool table, 60 in 1 etc.
They are not pinball people are we are but still enjoy it.
That is the demographic that would most likely but the type of game.
So, it could work. If done right.

Exactly this. A lot of people here are missing your initial point.

I'm not saying it would be a success, but like i said, if stern is going to pop out six a year, seems like one of them could be of this design. People might be surprised as to the level of popularity especially with operators.

These threads always make me laugh.

I have that game. It's called Capcom Breakshot.

This makes a lot of sense for location pinball. I love the idea

That's not how it works

As the manufacturer it's on you to design and test the game and be able to turn those earnings reports over to your customers as to why they should take a chance at any price.

Here's how we roll at Raw ...

Build up a workable Proto as cheaply as possible. Get it on test and see how it earns, follow audits and tweak as necessary until either two things happen:

1) you have a turkey and if so kill the project

2) you have something that can earn for your customers

We've been down road #1 too many times, but spend a ton of test time trying to get to #2 with every project.

When we do our customers trust that we have a winner for them to put on route.

Your customers shouldn't be putting up the money to try and see if it works ... That's the manufacturers job

I'm a computer engineer who can program an Arduino but can't figure out half of what I'm doing when I'm playing my MET Pro. When I have people over its the one they least like playing because they don't understand what's happening and my ball times are 10 minutes long and theirs 30 second. I'm selling it, too.
I had looked into buying a Whoa Nellie to put on location locally but way too expensive.
If there was something like what your talking about I'd consider getting one or a couple for that purpose.
I do think that the retro aspect of it doesn't need to be wiped out though, I think it's part of the appeal of Pinball.

I would rather buy early 80's NIB pins over most of the stuff today. Look at what a mint condition Fathom of Centaur costs right now anyway, then consider brand new with RGB lighting and better sound etc. I would be fine with a 5 or 6K example of many early 80's classic's. MMr or AFMr not so much.

Only if the intended customer base is operators. IMO this "simpler" pinball idea would only be valid for home users. A simpler pinball (like Mata Hari) in arcades would most likely flop. Brand new, 2K "Simple" pinballs of good quality could sell to home users pretty well. Personally, at 4K I would would rather spend more and get a Stern Pro - therefore I would end up not purchasing any game like this at 4K. I'm sure there would be a handful of people that would pay 4K, and will probably respond on this thread positively - but I sure wouldn't chance a business decision to make them - surefire flop IMHO. I could be wrong, but Whoa Nellie is the test case for this.

Exactly - but $4K is way too high - you would lose out to a Stern Pro almost every time. I think you might be trying to compare the cost to JJP or Stern LE prices. But at this level of features/functionality you have to compare it only to Stern Pros - which are the predominant games of today.

That's the question at hand ... Is there a version of "pinball" that exists that can make it a viable coin-operated piece of amusement equipment for casual patrons to want to play and be entertained enough to play again, and again.

Personally Aurich's ideas are definitely the path I would investigate. There are some seriously awesome 80's style designs based on wide flipper gap/large outlane/short ball times.

Updating that with more physical interacting devices, along with storyline based rulesets ... All that can be seen in under 10 minutes but you rarely survive 3 minutes of fury is where I would go...

Wasn't "The Pin" basically this, but without a coin door? Simpler game, alpha numeric display, low(er) price.

I don't see The Pin being a good location earner.

Regarding the topic for operators only... This is kind of what Stern did with Iron Man - still a far cry from 80's games. If the cost won't go down significantly, then all that's really needed to discuss is the need for "simpler" games that...

- easy to understand rules
- short ball times

My experience is that most people do not appreciate pinballs that have very short ball times. Maybe this could be made up for by the "more physical interacting devices" that you mentioned. Although that tends to up the cost. IMO Stern has been focusing on shorter ball times for the most part already. It's tough to make rules that experienced players like, and are simple/easy to understand for everyone - they did a pretty good job on IM and Tron is close (except for a few things).

IMO not even close. That game layout is still 'shot-post-shot-post'. I'd be more interested in seeing wider areas for Make-able shots where the trajectory of the ball can do some interesting things (all as the player watches it happen).

It's also still wayyyyy too confusing of a ruleset. I couldn't tell you how to play it and I should be able to explain any game just by looking at the playfield.

Ever watch a new person play? Rhetorical question, but they flip like crazy. It takes a lot of playing before anyone starts to "get" how to play...

Maybe a game that was just timed multiball with each plunge would be better for new people...

Then why didn't he say so.