(Topic ID: 134047)

Maybe it's time to build a simpler pin.


By Aurich

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 486 posts
  • 149 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by swinks
  • Topic is favorited by 18 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Would you buy a modern take on an early 1980 solid state for $4k?”

  • I'd be interested. No pre-order. Maybe pay and get within 3 months, max. 106 votes
    29%
  • Unsure. Would have to play it, see reviews, probably not an early adopter. 100 votes
    28%
  • Doesn't really sound like the pinball I'm into more, sorry. Probably pass. 104 votes
    29%
  • Eh. 53 votes
    15%

(363 votes)

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There are 486 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 10.
72
#1 3 years ago

Maybe it's time to build a simpler pin. One more old school. That's a lot cheaper. And I mean more 1980 Bally than I do Stern's "The Pin".

Maybe it's time to make a level of new pinball that's affordable. Maybe it's time to make a pin that actually can bring in different location players. I don't think people in the hobby realize how intimidating a modern pin is to a new person.

When your standard game is $8500 and it just keeps going up I'm priced out man. I don't brush my teeth with a gold toothbrush and sleep nestled in the furs of young ocelots in my mansion floating in the clouds with antigrav technology I stole from the future with my time machine that I used to make a trillion dollars in the stock market. It's a pinball.

If I really want the LE that's on me, people can pay whatever if they want their top dog status. But base model? Where are the games that people can afford if they're not ballers? Where are games that operators can afford to try out?

Let's bring back the era of the early solid state. But marry it with modern thinking.

And maybe this is the way to get games on location that are cheap(er) and easier for people to get. While still providing that challenge that makes games like Fathom, Centaur, Mystic, Medusa, Eight Ball Deluxe, Flash Gordon, Elektra, etc so much fun still.

Even for world class players. Jim Belsito is the one who introduced me to Flash Gordon and Mystic. I own them both now because he showed me how even a champion level player can get great gameplay back from them.

But not retro for the sake of being retro.

0) Modern sounds, music, lighting, and rules. Keep it simple still! Nothing crazy rules wise. But enough depth to keep it entertaining at home if set steep and open and challenging. Use RGB LEDs if you want. Cool to use modern tech where it makes sense. Have bad ass light shows.

1) Everything has direct line of sight. No complicated ramps and multilevels of understanding. You know how to get where you want to go.

2) Bring back 5 balls. Make the games hard. Make dangerous shots for important things. Challenge people. But give them 5 balls again. It will feel like more value. They'll get two more tries than usual, so every game they play will have more "almost there" feeling of trying to make it a little further. It will still have shorter ball times than a 3 ball modern DMD.

3) Drop 4 players down to 2. You solo, or you vs your buddy. Simpler, more practical for location play. Compared to modern DMDs these will still have shorter ball times. So it works with location math. Replace the start button with two buttons, 1 PLAYER and 2 PLAYER. Light just the first for one credit, light them both for 2 credits. Everyone gets that arcade model. Move the buttons to the lockdown bar.

Ever watch newbs on location? They don't even know how to start a game after they put in quarters.

4) This is where you have an original theme! Two big alphanumeric displays on the backbox. One red, one blue, or something. Player One and Player Two. Some bad ass art around it all by someone who's got a style that connects with a youth audience. Pinball is for teenagers and young punks man! Keep it that way! The rest of us will feel like we're connecting a beloved old era with the present, we can roll with it.

No license. No extra costs. Alphanumeric display means no animations needed. Simpler game and rules means less sound and music needed to be created. Way more cost effective, and way less work since you can do everything in house on your own schedule. No approval process.

I know I'd buy the hell out of something like that for say $4k. Keep it realistic, it has to be profitable and doable. But man, cheap enough to play in the same pond as the secondary pin market. Cheaper than a Stern Pro. Which keeps going up.

With some bad ass art? The kids all love Zombie Yeti, right kids?!

#2 3 years ago

I was thinking this earlier today. You stole the thread right out of my head.

22
#3 3 years ago

It would come down to would you rather have an 80s style game for $4k or a JM + DM or a TSPP or about three nice 80s games? No way I'm paying $4k for an 80s game with nice art. NFW.

#4 3 years ago

I'd love a four player version of Volley or Jacks Open...

#5 3 years ago

Like everything in the model above except the start buttons on the lock down bar. Not sure why; it's visceral.

#6 3 years ago
Quoted from Tribonian:

Like everything in the model above except the start buttons on the lock down bar. Not sure why; it's visceral.

Understood. It's not gonna be a replica of an old pin, it's not going to be about sticking with tradition. This is something pinball needs for location success. I'd prefer normal Start location too. But ask anyone who operates pins, hell even Stern has thought about this, the Start button where it is confuses new players. It just does. Maybe because there aren't huge lines of people playing where you can watch and learn from them. Is what it is.

If we want location pinball to have a shot again we should compromise on stuff like that. If it's designed right it could still be cool. We don't mind ACDC or Star Trek or Hobbit having a button on the lockdown bar.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

I'd love a four player version of Volley or Jacks Open...

Yeah, this isn't anything like that. 2 players, not 4. Modern graphics, modern sounds, no reels. Original titles, that appeal to younger people, not old collectors, not remakes.

#8 3 years ago

agree Aurich, if done right

on a slight tangent I am going to do a custom pin with this same approach, 2 player (3 x led displays - 2 for 2 players and balls left display for the 3rd), basic but challenging rules, lots of drops, but with modern sounds / soundtrack, a ramp or 2 and hopefully good art....

#9 3 years ago

Other than the price tag I think this is what Charlie from Spooky had in mind when he designed Pinball Zombies which is now Rob Zombie. Originally he was just going to have score displays and a layout more reminiscent of early 80's games with chaotic pop bumpers (like Black Hole) and short ball times. Some things have changed since that time (namely the theme and the change to DMD display) but I think the general idea is similar to yours. Yeah, the price isn't $4K but I don't think anyone other than Stern is capable of producing a $4K game and actually staying in business. I'm excited for Rob Zombie and have my name on the list as I think the pin will be completely different than what anyone else has been doing lately and should have some early Bally SS type layout features along with fantastic artwork. I can't wait to see/play one!

Other than that I would be interested in a Fathom re-make if they kept it around $4K and had both a classic Fathom rule-set along with a more modern (deep) rule-set. The combination of artwork, classic sound and layout, mixed with modern day technology and a modern rule-set would be too tough to pass up!

#10 3 years ago

I might be in at $2K but $4K no way. Not when I could get a 90s B title AND a good condition EM for the same kind of money. Operators would probably like it because maintenance would be more straightforward, but forget about big sales to the home market unless the games are licenced.

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Understood. It's not gonna be a replica of an old pin, it's not going to be about sticking with tradition. This is something pinball needs for location success. I'd prefer normal Start location too. But ask anyone who operates pins, hell even Stern has thought about this, the Start button where it is confuses new players. It just does. Maybe because there aren't huge lines of people playing where you can watch and learn from them. Is what it is.
If we want location pinball to have a shot again we should compromise on stuff like that. If it's designed right it could still be cool. We don't mind ACDC or Star Trek or Hobbit having a button on the lockdown bar.

Oh, gotcha...for location this might work. I'd play the hell out of it if fun, but to buy for home for $4k...nah.

#12 3 years ago

Aurich, didnt wiz bang kinda do what your proposing? I thought Nellie was awesome but with a modern flare

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from Circus_Animal:

I might be in at $2K but $4K no way.

I hear that for sure. It will never happen under $4k. So not for people who feel like you do.

#14 3 years ago

I like the concept but for 4k you could buy three great 80's pins and have money left over...

Say you could bring the price down to $2500-$3000 then the sky's the limit.
However I don't know if that's economically feasible for a designer and manufacturer, maybe if it was built in China.

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from shovelhed:

Aurich, didnt wiz bang kinda do what your proposing? I thought Nellie was awesome but with a modern flare

Woah Nellie is retro. It appeals to people who are nostalgic, but want modern trappings. And that's cool! But it's the opposite of what I'm talking about.

I'm saying design it like a 1980 Bally, in terms of creative but more straightforward gameplay, and ability to look at and grasp the shots, but use modern technology and thinking. And, don't make it retro. Make it feel current and new. This isn't a recreation of an old era, it's realizing that there's a slot for simple pins still, and and lower prices. Woah Nellie is over $6k. I want under a Stern Pro, not more than it.

#16 3 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I like the concept but for 4k you could buy three great 80's pins and have money left over...

Just like Woah Nellie wasn't designed to compete with real EMs, this won't actually compete with 1980 games.

These aren't retro games. They'll have real music, high quality sounds, LED lighting, RGB probably at least in some places. They'll be brand new, with clearcoated playfields. Electronics will be robust, and not require repinning or any nonsense. Displays bright and crisp. New art that's not stencils, that appeals to modern tastes of a younger audience, not old collectors. Who can love it too! People are digging Zombie Yeti here, no? He knows what the kiddies like.

13
#17 3 years ago

Honestly, some of the RGB lightshows are over-doing it. Half the time, it's hard to tell what targets you should be shooting for because everything is glowing and flashing and changing colors. Sure, it looks pretty, but it doesn't give the player much useful information.

#18 3 years ago

Would I spend $4k on a simple pin from a manufacturer? No way in Hell. But... I would gladly drop $10k+ on a CNC machine and drop who knows how much more designing and building my own System 11 reminiscent machine.

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

These aren't retro games. They'll have real music, high quality sounds, LED lighting, RGB probably at least in some places. They'll be brand new, with clearcoated playfields. Electronics will be robust, and not require repinning or any nonsense. Displays bright and crisp. New art that's not stencils, that appeals to modern tastes of a younger audience, not old collectors. Who can love it too!

You don't think Stern has researched this?

#20 3 years ago
Quoted from Tribonian:

Like everything in the model above except the start buttons on the lock down bar. Not sure why; it's visceral.

Absolutely NO buttons on the lockdown bar! Gambling pinball machines have buttons on the lockdown bar and we don't want to give the impression this is a gambling device!

#21 3 years ago

I wouldn't buy it myself. Not NIB anyway, but I never buy NIB. I 'm more of a restorer of old games to like-new.

But, when done right obviously, this could be a good idea for operators. You've got some great ideas. Like twin start buttons. But that won't nearly be enough. The 'doing it right-thing' is trivial here. For starters, it needs to be -very- addicting to play, and approachable. At least as addicting, approachable, instantly appealing and cool as a smartphone app game. If you want younger generations to play it, that is.

One more modern feature that is hard to recreate for pinball is an online function. Reason: every one of the same model pinball machine plays slightly to vastly different. I do think that a game like this needs something 'online' about it, though. If it doesn't, it's already 3 steps behind other modern gaming experiences.

If you do this, rethink every part of the game for the current market and gaming environment. Conventions that are not logical when you think of them (like having just 1 start button, but there are many more of those conventions) should be redesigned. Without letting the game lose that pinball charm we all love. Easier said than done, but I'm sure it can be done.

#22 3 years ago

Great idea, totally behind bringing some sanity to the insane pricing we are forced to decide upon now.
Leave the start button where it is or move it down slightly and put a huge bullseye with "START" in it in the same updated graphics...too easy!

#23 3 years ago

This post makes me think pinball should go open source...

A few guys that are way more into it than others design the layout collaboratively. Have some artist friends design the theme. Programmer friends to do rules lights sounds and dots.

Be able to buy kits for playfields, wiring, controllers (raspberry pi, beaglebone, etc) and DIY.

Alternatively, everything will be online for free. So if you have access to a 3D printer or a CNC you can DIY very easily.

Spitballing, of course. But I wonder how this isn't already a thing.

#24 3 years ago

Did someone say Classic Bally??? We certainly have the bug Aurich!

Simple to play and understand games are fun and remind me of my youth, but to be completely honest I'm not that great of a player. I have problems trying to learn rules for the new Stern machines. And even a lot of Bally/Williams games as well. I'm not hating, just saying I like simple games a lot more than deep games. And simple games still kick my ass!

The plus for me too is that older Bally games are more affordable, have great art work and are simple to work on. A new pin that follows these old standards would do well IMHO.

Rob Bell
Robsgameroom.com

#25 3 years ago

Gottlieb from 1952 - 1957 ( roughly ) nailed it as these games had some of the best rulesets ( em ) of all time.

Simple but extremely challenging, deeper rulsets than later em's, great artwork and most importantly for location play - multiple ways to win.

These games always had the player thinking they were close to winning, so they put more money in.

Compare to now. A kid goes up to the latest Stern and drops a coin in. After 3 balls on hitting a few random shots and no chance of being remotely close to winning, kid walks away.

Compare to say my 1954 Mystic Marvel - I have had 4 year old kids jumping up and down because they get close to winning. And I have had top ranked players play it and not one has completed it! ( Hit every rollover, light all 3 specials and then hit center shot to collect ).

#26 3 years ago
Quoted from janus:

You don't think Stern has researched this?

What sort of research do you think they've done?

#27 3 years ago

As someone not understanding the "magic" of NIB at all (!!!) I'd rather spend 4K on a cool used pin than get some boiled down version of a modern pin. But that results more from my lack of love for NIB than thinking it's a bad idea in general, still "Eh" it is for me.

16
#28 3 years ago

Nice short story: there's a 6 Million Dollar Man at my work. They have bought it from me after I shopped it. Now I've got some new colleagues who are in their early twenties. 2 guys who had never been involved with real pinball before. They gravitate to the game and like to challenge each other on it. Last week I explained the rules a bit and they like it even more. To me that means that early Bally's rulesets aren't that easy to understand for new players after all.

Todays younger crowd didn't grow up playing pinball. That means explaining the rules has to be a key feature of the game. What goals do I have and how do I achieve them?

Funny side note: I had to point out that they could play against each other by pressing the start button twice. I even had to explain that this means that they switch after each ball. And that they each had their own score display. Mind you: these aren't dumb dudes or anything. The things we pinball players take for granted and that are so obvious in our eyes are a whole new world for new players.

#29 3 years ago
Quoted from Jappie:

One more modern feature that is hard to recreate for pinball is an online function. Reason: every one of the same model pinball machine plays slightly to vastly different.

It's easy enough to implement and if it's used purely as a gimmick to attract new players, why not? As long as this feature is not an integral part of the ruleset or used in tournaments, then I don't see the problem.

#30 3 years ago

good observation and I think we take it for granted the apparent simpleness of say a 2 player game for people who have never played pinball.

also some of the Bally's eg Skateball is a 1980 game but if you relied on just the rule card you couldn't work out what to hit when, but the advantage is many people love to knock down all the drops and go to the collect.

myPinballs is developing a boardset for the 80's Bally to reprogramme this era game or do a custom game and introduce modern sounds and soundtracks where he supplies a game programme that you can then edit, which I sure will still be challenging but since it is simple and easier to do than trying to do a dmd programme is a little more achieveable.

I have thought about the idea of changing a say Skateball using more modern available parts with this myPinballs board set and creating a kit where people can get their own cabinet (Bally's 90's style) ready, pre-purchase the boards & power supplies and minor parts like plunger, start button, flipper buttons, rails etc. Then in a game / themed kit is an assembled printed cleared playfield with a wiring harness, translite and cabinet decals are sent off and the owner can do a plug and play. So similar to Heighway but a little more affordable option based on a 80's fun game style but with the 90's cabinet to allow a ramp or toys can be added as well as speakers etc but hooking into 7 digit number displays for simplicity.

#31 3 years ago

but what is a 'simpler' game
does it include ramps? A good ramp shot is satisfying
drop targets? knocking them down and having them reset is satisfying and easy for the novice to understand
what about multiball? sure it is hard to aim while 3 or mare balls are in play, but a good multiball is a blast to play

#32 3 years ago
Quoted from PopBumperPete:

but what is a 'simpler' game
does it include ramps? A good ramp shot is satisfying
drop targets? knocking them down and having them reset is satisfying and easy for the novice to understand

totally agree, will be doing both these myself.

#33 3 years ago

Rule- and gameplay-wise I think we can learn a lot from the System 11 pins. The pin does need to explain these rules actively though. A card on the appron is just too passive these days.

#34 3 years ago

For themes,i like the idea of another Greek mythology character like Centaur or Medusa or something to do with ancient Egypt,sphinx pharaohs,pyramids etc...as long as there's curvy women involved.

#35 3 years ago

Aurich - Great thread and even better idea. As another poster stated, I was just thinking this. I know Stern thought the pin would fit the bill, but I Think they went about it all wrong. Why not develop a new pin that could actually make operators money faster? A pin that the home use buyers could afford? Seems to me that with the new Spike system, this is all possible. I still think they need to eliminate the back box and move to a lcd screen that the buyer would purchase separately.

#36 3 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

Aurich - Great thread and even better idea. As another poster stated, I was just thinking this. I know Stern thought the pin would fit the bill, but I Think they went about it all wrong. Why not develop a new pin that could actually make operators money faster? A pin that the home use buyers could afford? Seems to me that with the new Spike system, this is all possible. I still think they need to eliminate the back box and move to a lcd screen that the buyer would purchase separately.

I understand people coming up with ideas but... remove the backbox for a LCD sitting on top the machine?! I dont see that happening and hope it never happens. I dont think the backbox is what actually bringing the cost up.. its the licensing and living 10-20 years past the cost people are looking for. Cost of living went up so all goods gone up as well..... I wish i could buy a house at 1990's prices.

#37 3 years ago

My son and his wife go every 3 weeks to have dinner and play pinball at Main Street Amusements. He was just telling me that they both do not like to play the newer Sterns because they are to complicated, so this Idea of a simpler pinball machine might not be a bad idea for locations.

By the way my son and his wife are of the age that they did grow up in the arcade generation, but around here I do not remember the arcades having pinball machines, just arcade games. If they had, had pinball machines I would have spent some time in them even though I would have looked out of place with all the kids, as I was already in my forties.

#38 3 years ago
Quoted from DynamiteSJ:

I understand people coming up with ideas but... remove the backbox for a LCD sitting on top the machine?! I dont see that happening and hope it never happens. I dont think the backbox is what actually bringing the cost up.. its the licensing and living 10-20 years past the cost people are looking for. Cost of living went up so all goods gone up as well..... I wish i could buy a house at 1990's prices.

I hear what you are saying and you are right it might not eliminate much cost. If it did, it would be in shipping weight, materials and LCD, which will be used in future pins. Your statement is false as not all items or commodities go through the same inflationary cycle. What has changed the most is the fact that because there are less pinball machines in the wild, people are willing to spend 8,000 to have one in their home.

#39 3 years ago

Augmented reality pins ala oculus rift?

#40 3 years ago

I 100 percent, 1 million percent agree. Pinball is too confusing and too hard to be fun for the masses. Watch someone step up to the walking dead. Everything is flashing, no call out on what to do, it's just one big guessing game.

Right now the entire industry is chasing its own collector tail. If you want a deep rule set game that's got tons to do, well, there are plenty of those games available. But where is the simple fun pin these days? The angry birds of pin? 99 percent of players would enjoy a simple experience vs getting to valinor.

Problem is the casual pinball player won't buy a machine and because the market is now almost all collector, everyone is tailoring the product to that market.

We need a $3,000 fun work of art.

#41 3 years ago

Also, you know how in almost every video game they explain what the goals are and what the controls are when you first play. Modern pinball needs a quick video that explains the pins goals. Seasoned players could choose to skip.

So for example on LOTR. On the LCD, you'd be invited to play and told the rule set with video. Welcome to middle earth, let's go over the goals. You want to collect the fellowship members, and then all those would light up to show you where to shoot. Something like that.

#42 3 years ago

This discussion has been running for a few months now.

Most predominantly in the "Classic Sterns to be remade?" thread.

I totally think there is a market for these types of pins. And people say "won't pay $4k for one of those" however if a nicely restored Centaur or Fathom comes up for sale for $4500-5000 it get snapped up pretty quick. A brand new one for $4000 is going to sell well.

One of the things that puts people off the early SS pins is the reliability of them. Most people don't want to be repairing 30 year old boards and lamp sockets all the time. If you had a classic SS title running off a Spike board, these problems are solved.

I definitely think it would work.

rd.

#43 3 years ago
Quoted from Jappie:

Funny side note: I had to point out that they could play against each other by pressing the start button twice. I even had to explain that this means that they switch after each ball. And that they each had their own score display. Mind you: these aren't dumb dudes or anything. The things we pinball players take for granted and that are so obvious in our eyes are a whole new world for new players.

Quoted from Jappie:

The pin does need to explain these rules actively though. A card on the appron is just too passive these days.

I think that's the point!

It's not the constructions on the PF that turns off new/younger players, the technically and visually impressive games with lots of mechanisms, ramps & toys are the ones that newbies gravitate to in my gameroom. It's the completely non-self-explaining setup of the modern machines that kills the fun for them. You have to bring loads of pinball experience to just play a pin correctly and even the most experienced players don't have much of a clue what to hit on a new pin like WoZ, they trial-and-error based - again - on experience.

New players and especially young people using smartphones and tablets are used to self explaining menus that guide them graphically and adaptively rather than handling x functions with very few buttons that have no label at all. Same goes for the PF, for a newbie inserts are just blinking lights, there is no explanation of what to make of them or what to do in general.

That project using a screen for almost the complete PF would be a good way of drawing in new players as you could add something like a "guided tour" or "interactive tutorial" that recalls what you've achieved how on the last ball and what your options for the next ball are.

I just don't see how taking all the stuff that newbies love (ramps, toys, mechanical stuff - anything that interacts with the ball in an interesting or cool way) away and STILL wanting to charge 4K for it will be attractive to anyone. The mechanical complexity is not the problem, the approachability of the rules is.

#44 3 years ago

If Stern Pro models stay at around $4,500 - $4,600, this will be a tough sell at $4,000.

#45 3 years ago

I was all on board until you hit the 4k price tag. When you can pickup a NIB Stern Pro shipped to your door for around $4500 I think it's going to be a hard sell with an older style game without all the bells and whistles. Like others have also said, you can get a couple nice 90's DMD games for that same 4k. I love the idea but not at that price.

#46 3 years ago

I got into pins with Cyclone and a large part of that was the instructional callouts. "Ride the ferris wheel!" etc. That was when it clicked for me that there were rules and an order to the seeming chaos.

That kind of explicit callout has been all but abandoned in modern pins. It's to the pins' and potential new players' detriment imo.

#47 3 years ago

I think the Pin would have been more successful if they used a real cabinet. (and cheaper of course) I only say this because that game would have been a whole lot toward what you are suggesting. But I don't this to turn into a The Pin topic.
Personally I cannot stand 5 ball games.

Quoted from Erik:

I got into pins with Cyclone and a large part of that was the instructional callouts. "Ride the ferris wheel!" etc. That kind of explicit callout has been all but abandoned in modern pins.

T3 is the last pin I can remember which does this.

#48 3 years ago

Imo pinball began to slide after the system 11 era. Creativity lessened.

#49 3 years ago

Quit talkin' and start chalking.

Hey! You with the face.

I do have a fondness for the old school call outs as opposed to the wall of noise approach that seems typical in much of modern life.

#50 3 years ago
Quoted from rotordave:

This discussion has been running for a few months now.
Most predominantly in the "Classic Sterns to be remade?" thread.
I totally think there is a market for these types of pins. And people say "won't pay $4k for one of those" however if a nicely restored Centaur or Fathom comes up for sale for $4500-5000 it get snapped up pretty quick. A brand new one for $4000 is going to sell well.
One of the things that puts people off the early SS pins is the reliability of them. Most people don't want to be repairing 30 year old boards and lamp sockets all the time. If you had a classic SS title running off a Spike board, these problems are solved.
I definitely think it would work.
rd.

Great point! I would love a NIB Centaur with new lighting & sounds! So would a LOT of other pinheads!

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