(Topic ID: 296853)

Match lights are stuck on

By soaringorrie

13 days ago


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  • 31 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 days ago by soaringorrie
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#1 13 days ago

AS far as I can see the only thing turning them on or off is the game over relay. What am I missing?

#2 13 days ago

Yeah. The switch on the game over relay which should be open during gameplay is likely closed.
Be sure to snug the switch stack screws before making switch adjustments.

#3 13 days ago

Checked the switch stack and all seems well. Should also mention that the match lights stay on when the match option is unplugged.

#4 13 days ago

What game is it?
Do the numbers move around as you play a game?

#5 13 days ago

You have a switch gapped to close.
Raff

#6 13 days ago

Yes, they move when the 10 point relay is tripped as they should. Just checked and discovered that the Blue-Yellow wire that runs from the game over relay is hot(6 volts) even when the switch is not making contact with the brown wire(game on it should be off). I can't fathom how that wire is getting voltage when it shouldn't. Thanks for any help.

#7 13 days ago

It's not a gap problem. I even put a piece of card between switch.

#8 13 days ago

It's a Little Joe by the way.

#9 13 days ago

Is this an issue that just started, or is it a game you recently acquired which has had this issue since you've owned it?

#10 13 days ago
Quoted from soaringorrie:

the match lights stay on when the match option is unplugged

Then you're going to have to check the many ends of this Red&Yellow wire, and if that looks OK you're going to have to follow it to find out where it's getting power.

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#11 13 days ago

This is a machine I just picked up that was sitting for 20 years or so. Yes ,that is the wire in question. I'll do some more hunting today. Thanks for the help.

#12 13 days ago

I've never played the game, and so I am not familiar with it's operation.
But, could it possibly be that the numbers you're seeing are actually dice values, and are part of the game's features?
Maybe someone else who owns one can shed some light?

#13 13 days ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

I've never played the game, and so I am not familiar with it's operation.
But, could it possibly be that the numbers you're seeing are actually dice values, and are part of the game's features?
Maybe someone else who owns one can shed some light?

The lighted dice values are limited to the playfield.

#14 13 days ago

OK then. As HowardR is showing above, somewhere, stray voltage is leaking into the match lite circuit. I'd disconnect the Jones plugs, and try powering the light box lamps with another power source such as a 6v battery charger. If the match lites remain on, I'd start the "wiggle test". Wiggle and gently tug on wiring, and hopefully it'll help you locate the source of the current leak. Also, check the 00-99 stepper which changes the lights.
Something on it may be incorrectly insulated or grounded.
Good luck.

#15 13 days ago

I'm picking up the voltage somewhere between the match on-off receptacle and the jones plug in the back box. Thought I might just de-solder the wire on both ends and run a new wire instead of pulling the wire bundle all apart. Of course I'll never know where the stray current came from. Does this sound like a reasonable fix?

#16 12 days ago
Quoted from soaringorrie:

I'm picking up the voltage somewhere between the match on-off receptacle and the jones plug in the back box. Thought I might just de-solder the wire on both ends and run a new wire instead of pulling the wire bundle all apart. Of course I'll never know where the stray current came from. Does this sound like a reasonable fix?

You can try unsoldering one end, and temporarily installing a new wire using alligator clips. If the issue isn't resolved, it's easy to put it back to original state again.

#17 12 days ago

Thanks for the tip, I'll do that.

#18 8 days ago

OK, here is the latest. I followed jrpinball's good advice and completely isolated the back box by pulling all the Jones plugs and powering the first player and general lights with an external power supply and indeed the match light still turns on. Wiggled wires and checked every thing visually for any thing abnormal ,but no luck yet. Not sure where to go from here. Anyone have any other suggestions?

#19 8 days ago
Quoted from soaringorrie:

OK, here is the latest. I followed jrpinball's good advice and completely isolated the back box by pulling all the Jones plugs and powering the first player and general lights with an external power supply and indeed the match light still turns on. Wiggled wires and checked every thing visually for any thing abnormal ,but no luck yet. Not sure where to go from here. Anyone have any other suggestions?

Did you try what I suggested in post#16?

#20 8 days ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Did you try what I suggested in post#16?

You beat me to it, jrpinball !!

soaringorrie Did you try what I suggested in post 10?
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/match-lights-are-stuck-on#post-6389541

#21 8 days ago

By pulling all the jones plugs and isolating the back box I eliminated the red-yellow wire as a suspect, so no I didn't do that.

#22 8 days ago

Temporarily short the lit match light and look for smoke.

(Yes, we really used to do this in the EM era to locate hard to find shorts. The short is probably not very good connection, so it dissipates the most power and lets out smoke. But only short out the lamp for a brief time. If the lamp fuse blows, don't try again. And, never EVER do this on SS games!)

#23 8 days ago

I would go over the 00-99 unit.
Something there may be shorted or grounded.

#24 8 days ago

Is the game over lamp also on? And like jrpinball said, check the 00-90 unit. Check that the unit frame does not contact any GI light wiring.

#25 8 days ago

the 00-99 unit is on the other side of the lamps, so it's not a factor assuming only one lamp is on.

the only thing it can be is what howard said - wire 13-4 is shorted someplace. Often it's a bare wire stapled to the wood, so if all else fails, cut it between the 50 and 60 lamp and see which half has 6VAC when measuring to wire 30, then go from there.

if you cut the wire with sharp snips, the ends will butt and solder back together easily.

#26 7 days ago

OK thanks for all the feed back. I'll get back to it in the next few days and give a report on my progress.

#27 6 days ago

I should mention for clarity that I only eliminated wire 13-4 as a suspect where it goes from the match disconnect ( bottom board) to the jones plug receptacle in the back box. From there it disappears into the wiring harness and there my nest of trouble begins. If you look at the schematic (post 10) that wire connects to the 00-90 unit wires . The wires coming off the 00-90 unit disappear as well into the wiring harness. Can anyone clarify where those connections are actually made as I don't see a 13-4 wire going to the match unit.??? ThanksIMG_3413 (resized).JPG

#28 6 days ago

Match light problem found and fixed! A player four light was grounding out the 00-90 row of match lights shown in picture. And yes the red-yellow wire hooks up there. Had to pull the wiring harness away to actually see it. It's all so obvious now. Thank you all for your kind assistance, I would still be scratching my head without youIMG_3414 (resized).JPG.

#29 6 days ago

Good good.

#30 6 days ago
Quoted from soaringorrie:

If you look at the schematic (post 10) that wire connects to the 00-90 unit wires . The wires coming off the 00-90 unit disappear as well into the wiring harness. Can anyone clarify where those connections are actually made as I don't see a 13-4 wire going to the match unit.???

to clarify that ... the 13-4 wire only goes from the match adjust plug to one side of all the match lamps. The lamps are those circles with the 00-90 numbers in them.

the transformer has a hot and neutral side, one side of the lamp needs to attach to hot, the other side of the lamp to neutral.

in this case, wire 13-4 is essentially connecting one side of all the lamps to hot (via 23-1), and the 00-90 unit connects one lamp to neutral to light it.

when you pulled the match on-off adjust plug, you disconnected hot from all the lamps ... but one lamp still lit. The only way that's possible is if there's a short onto 13-4 (if you ignore the bizarre possibility of a path to hot thru another lamp ... and in that case two lamps would be dimly lit).

debugging via the schematic is generally a game of finding the load you want to power (load = lamp, coil, motor) and find a path from that load to hot and neutral.

there's usually lots of possible paths on one side of a load, so you find the path(s) that should be closed at the time you care about and determine why it's not working using inspection, voltmeter or jumper wires.

#31 6 days ago

Roger that. Thanks again for the help.

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