(Topic ID: 184815)

Marco test rom Sys80 - solid Led


By bdPinball

3 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 15 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by bdPinball
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

Got my Marco test fixture for Sys80 games from pinitech, read the installation instructions. Plugged it in hoping to decipher the flashes but instead I get a solid locked in led.

Funny because I put it back in the game (circus) to test with a different power supply, and there the led comes on, then goes out for a second, then comes back on solid.

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

#2 3 years ago

The last time that I had an LED behave like that, it was a bad CPU chip.

#3 3 years ago

Ah, somebody needs some support!

I will try to help at a distance

The testprogram not starting is maybe the nastiest problem. Here, there can be many problems. Like Forceflow mentioned, it *can* be a defective 6502 CPU. But before plugging in your Hakko check if there is a clocksignal. This can be the cause also. Or a bad reset circuit in combination with a weak power supply. This can cause to start the program at a random point. Also, which is important, remove or disable U3 before using the testrom. Other wise U3 and the testrom will start their program at the same time causing a mess.

Another issue can be a defective component hooked up to the address and databus (one of the RIOT's, or the 5101) jamming an address or databusline. This will cause the testprogram not to start. Remove these components one-by-one and see if the testprogram starts running (the first long flash after a few seconds). Chris Hibbler made a nice video of the behaviour of the testrom.

I assume you didn't get my manual from pinitech, send me a PM with your emailaddress if you would like to have it.

Hope this helps!

Marco

#4 3 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

I assume you didn't get my manual from pinitech, send me a PM with your email address if you would like to have it.

Hey Marco! I usually provide a quick sheet with instructions with a link to your manual, could have missed including that. Thanks for the assistance!

Reminds me, I need to get you a rough count of these testers I've sold with your ROMs so we can figure something out there if you're willing to take my money this time hehe. People love your Sys80 test code.. have heard many great things over the last year!

#5 3 years ago

CIRCUS is a System 80, think the U2 and U3 need to be disabled on those boards. I think Marco's instructions mention this.

#6 3 years ago

Hi Ace!

I did write a how-to-use-the-testrom manual. However, I wasn't aware of your (very nice ) adapter that time. This introduced the need of disabling the U3 ROM at system 80 and system 80A boards when it remain present when using the Pinitech adapter. I will add this to my manual and send you a copy.

Nice to read you could sell some adapters and people are happy with it. I try to help here and there when people get stuck. Sometimes I get some nice responses, I got a few very odd ones too. Such is life. Anyway....the testrom helps people to repair and play their game again and that is the most important and makes me feel proud.

#7 3 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

However, I wasn't aware of your (very nice ) adapter that time. This introduced the need of disabling the U3 ROM at system 80 and system 80A boards when it remain present when using the Pinitech adapter. I will add this to my manual and send you a copy.

Wait, so you do or you don't you have to remove U2 & U3 when using the Pinitech adapter?

#8 3 years ago

Wow guys! This is awesome!

So, I should UNPLUG U2/U3 from their sockets before running this test?

Ace- There was a brief instruction sheet in the box, and I thought I read the instructions carefully, however my printer is on the fritz, so I either see these instructions on my phone, or on the computer upstairs which is a fair distance from my games/testbench.

I do recall reading about doing something or other with the roms, but I guess I was confused, because I thought that section was talking about somehow plugging the test rom into U2? But since this one has the daughter board, I didn't think it was relative.

Since I have access to a printer, I'll make sure to print out ALL the directions/instructions/tutorials I can find on the subject, and I'll try to follow them letter for letter- and if indeed there is something I find unclear I'll let you guys know. I can play guinea pig!

I THINK* I have a spare 6502 around somewhere, as well as 3 or 4 5101s! I'm so excited about getting to the bottom of this and being able to fix Williams, Bally AND Gottlieb games!

Again- Thanks Mr. Alba for developing this, and also thank you Ace for supplying the hardware itself! You guys are the bomb!!

-BrianDP
Gottlieb Test Guinea Pig

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Wait, so you do or you don't you have to remove U2 & U3 when using the Pinitech adapter?

U2 can remain there. U3 needs to be removed or disabled as it will conflict with the testrom at TC1.
To be honest, I never used my own testrom with a Pinitech Adapter. I am using a piggyback at U3 with an "onboard" LED myself.
I should disable U3 by connecting Z10 pin 6 (BAB13) to GND. This will prevent U3 from being enabled. Or is there another method used by Pinitech users?

Marco

#10 3 years ago

I sent this to Marco, but I thought Maybe I should post it here as well to keep the thread intact should someone else be trying to fix a similar problem in the future.

----

Apply power, with z10 pin 6 grounded, and....

Light comes on, seemed pretty bright!! Then went off for maybe a full second, then came on rather dim, at least in comparison to the first lighting.

Checking your docs, yes, pin 40 of the 6502. Has 5 (My multimeter set at 20v says 4.33v -is this a problem?)

Next, pin 37 is found to be pulsing- (I knew I'd use this logic probe eventually!) Yes, z3 is a DM7404N.

I read somewhere or other that double-zeros on the display (this was when the board was in the game) CAN indicate a bad 5101. Wouldn't surprise me as I'm given to understand that chip is subject to failure at the slightest static, or if someone so much as coughs on it.

Since the next tests seem to involve removing the 5101, I went ahead and removed him and put machined socket pins so I can plug and unplug at will. Unfortunately a new 5101 did not fix the issue, it still flashes once, and stays on.

I have not found another 6502 in my searchings so I've placed an order for a couple 6502s, and 4 of the RIOT chips. I see one of the pin-sites has a kit with these chips (1 6502, and 3 of the RIOT chips) so I've gone ahead an placed an order for those chips.

Does this seem like the next logical step? I mean, if the CPU can't get off the ground, even though it's got power, and a clock chip- That seems to point to that processor chip itself- I guess I can replace the 6502 first, and then if it still doesn't come alive, I could start with the RIOT chips. Or is it maybe better just to replace them all and be done with it? In some things- it seems like if you replace the broken one the next weakest link in the chain breaks. Would I be replacing for nothing, or gaining some peace of mind?

-Brian

#11 3 years ago

Brian,

Compared to Chris' video: are you getting the first long flash? Or does the LED light up immideatly?

If you are getting the first flash you are on the right path: it means the testprogram is running. After the long flash the 5101 test is executed. If the testprogram stalls (LED dim) it means the 5101 test fails. You already exchanged the 5101; doesn't change anything. Suspect chips are now the 4069 (inverter gates) and 4081 (AND gates). Some of their gates are taking care of the selection of the 5101. You can use your LogicProbe to investigate their logic behaviour. There is also a chance the R/W line from the 6502 processor is dead.

Marco

1 week later
#12 3 years ago

Okay, Replaced the 6502 & 3 Riot Chips. Still the same symptoms which are..

Yes, it comes on rather brightly, then it has the first pause like in the video, but then it is just solid dim. I've replaced the 5101 a couple of times with different chips / brands of chips so I know they didn't come from the same batch. In each case though, same symptoms.

So you think 4069 or 4081s hmm? The two chips south of the 5101. I can order a few of those- Hell I have just about every OTHER chip ever used on a pinball because I've had to replace them, and since I was buying one, I bought 5 extras. Which since these two flavors appear to be .45 a piece, I'll do that.

Since I'm ordering, is there any other chips I should go ahead an accumulate for future fixes? Maybe other chips down that line (test) That is, what else is likely to need changing?

Also- I guess at some point I will need to either get it fixed or bite the bullet and order a replacement board. I really don't want to do that though, I get off on the satisfaction and rush that I get when I fix a game that has been broken, and I find out what's wrong and get it back up! But realistically, I've seen situations where it just doesn't happen. Maybe the board has been hacked before (This board doesn't look like that, I mean, someone has added a socket here and there, but I wouldn't say it's "Hacked") - I've SEEN boards with all sorts of jumpers here and there and broken traces, and so forth. I have a sound board on a Bally that makes a high pitch noise sometimes when it's just sitting not being played. I've replaced bunches of components, but again, after a while one either throws in the towel, and accepts the condition, or buys a new board. In my Gottlieb case, I can't accept the situation, so if I thrown in the towel it'll either be rebuilt or aftermarket.

So I guess I'll get those couple chips, and if you tell me any more to get I'll add those to my order. let me know if you think I ought to grab a couple other chips. Heh, I've already got extra 6502s, Riots, 5101s, 6532s, and several other flavors! Try 'em all!

Thanks gentlemen.

-Brian

1 week later
#13 3 years ago

Okay. Replaced the last two chip, 4069 and 4081, and HEY! IT WORKED! Went through all the tests and ended with a steady blinking light.

Put the board back in the game, and now it boots up - I guess, because it goes into attract mode. However, no response from the coin door. No test switch, not credits, no tilt, no nothing. It must have SOME connection because the lights are lit on the coin slots.

I guess I'll post this in a new thread, but hey, Thank you very much Mr. Alba- This has been quite a learning experience! Now every chip it touched has nice machined-pin sockets, and at least if I have to change them again at some point it'll be about 10 times easier. Maybe easier than that!!

Thank you again for your help guys.

-Brian
Thrilled watching the attract lights go 'round.

#14 3 years ago

Nice to read your CPU board is back in business again!

There are a few possibilties why the caninet switches aren't working:

1) The connector at the coin door is bad
2) The switchmatrix connectors at the cpu board are bad (affeted by battery corrosion in the past)
3) The switch matrix buffers at the CPU board died.

With the testrom and a logic probe you can test the switchmatrix buffers pretty easily. You can read the details about it in the manual I sent you before. In short: turn all dipswitches off -> the outputs from the 7404 switchmatrix buffers should be static. Then, turn dipswitch #1 to "on" postion -> the first 7404 output should be pulsing. Turn dipswitch #2 to "on" position -> the 2nd 7404 output should be pulsing.......do this for dipswitch #3 - #8. Important: dipswitches #9 - #32 should not have any influence on the switch matrix outputs. Investigate the 7432 and 74154 chips if they do.

Good luck!

Marco

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from MarAlb:

Nice to read your CPU board is back in business again!
There are a few possibilties why the caninet switches aren't working:
1) The connector at the coin door is bad
2) The switchmatrix connectors at the cpu board are bad (affeted by battery corrosion in the past)
3) The switch matrix buffers at the CPU board died.
With the testrom and a logic probe you can test the switchmatrix buffers pretty easily. You can read the details about it in the manual I sent you before. In short: turn all dipswitches off -> the outputs from the 7404 switchmatrix buffers should be static. Then, turn dipswitch #1 to "on" postion -> the first 7404 output should be pulsing. Turn dipswitch #2 to "on" position -> the 2nd 7404 output should be pulsing.......do this for dipswitch #3 - #8. Important: dipswitches #9 - #32 should not have any influence on the switch matrix outputs. Investigate the 7432 and 74154 chips if they do.
Good luck!
Marco

Great! Can't wait to get home and test the next set of chips! I'll get this game to work if it kills me.. Or I die of natural causes first!

Good thing I have Big Casino, Black Knight 2000, Meteor, EBD, and Laser Ball as other games with little problems to work on while I wait for the parts to fix the next issue!

-Brian

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