Quoted from mechslave:This thread is funny in that all the TAV owners are using the exact same arguments the XMLE owners were using: the game is fun, IF you're good enough to make the tight shots! Yeah, yeah, we've heard that before! It's just funny to watch the TAV owners squirm under scrutiny when so many of the new owners piled onto XMLE when it was down and out.
In all seriousness, I enjoy playing TAV at my friend's house whenever I can. It's a fun shooting layout, and those VS modes come out of nowhere to save you when you really need it, and I enjoy piggybacking those onto Hulk/Loki. I wouldn't rule out owning one in the future. The Ropp Repetition isn't a glaring problem because of the way the modes stay lit, and the way you can start the VS modes, so you aren't stuck shooting the same thing... until you need just one last hero to start Helicarrier or whatever. I enjoy the game a lot, and while the layout is not without flaws I still think the Hulk SJP is one of the better SJP's in pinball. Needing to cradle two balls, for a 1-2 punch, with great accuracy and timing, is just a killer shot. Best thing about the game, to me.
The argument that a game is fun if one can make tight shots is a not a good defense for a game.
No game is fun if a player can't make the shots or feel like they are making progression towards SOMETHING.
Look at AC/DC. (I'll get back on topic shortly) One big appeal has to be that even flailing or random shots HELP the player. All target banks help toward Album mb, all ramp shots help toward Jam mb or maybe even loads the cannon, random orbit shots help toward Tour mb. Random shots up the middle ring the bell etc. In the Premium, a player can stumble into playing in Hell. Something is always happening to the player's benefit even if the ball is doing its own thing. (Clearly the better player one is, even more fun is derived)
In X-Men and Avengers much more precision shooting is required. So unless the player is content bashing on Wolverine or HULK all day, accurate shooting is real important, maybe too important. Translation-the game may be too demanding for the average player to have fun.
X-men has some very challenging shots. Storm is way more difficult than its mirror friend in TRON. (The geometry sacrifice was that Rogue is better than GEM). Xavier gives people fits. Beast requires a threaded shot, Iceman looks like it should be an easy ramp, but... and so on. All of these shots are required for various modes to progress towards Danger Room and Dark Phoenix. At least with Villain progression one is not doomed when playing the Villains. But still, the player is constantly trying to make tight shots, and if they miss, recover and hit those shots again. Does it make it a bad game-No, but it knocks the fun factor down several notches when the player is missing.
So now let's look at Avengers. (I am not a rule expert on this pin, but I have played it more than 3 times ). Black Widow is satisfying-when it is made. I see lots of bricked shots on this ramp (others and me included) and it takes a lot of shots to get things going. It is not backhand friendly (can be done here and there, but don't count on it).
That saucer in the upper left part of the playfield is either hit and hope or again hit a tight shot on the Black Widow ramp. Loki/Hawkeye is tight as well, but very makeable. (As I mentioned earlier this is probably the safest shot on the game and the employed strategy for many). The Iron Man and Captain America shots are also tight. Yes they can all be made, but that is not the point.
In X-Men and Avengers there is not much for casual players to stumble into-certainly not a casual player/owner of a 6-7K pin. (Disclosure: I own X-MenLE and I personally enjoy it, but IMO it really is not new/casual player friendly). That is a key area where games like X-Men and Avengers struggle IMO. (Another quick aside: I love TFLE and it suffers some of this as well-either a player is hitting things dead on or they are in trouble).
So to sum up: To make the argument that a game is good only when a player shoots well is a bit of a slap in the face to the average player-which most people are-that is the definition of average.
Good games give players front end candy, middle level objectives and deeper goals. The rewards are commensurate with one's skill level. To say a player needs laser precision to appreciate a game is making an excuse for a game's shortcomings.