Ok so the BW ramp is very tight. But there is plenty here for a novice player. Bashing hulk a few times will qualify hulk mb and random shots up the middle will eventually start it. Bashing the cube will start some neat light show effects as tesseract mode starts. It will also light extra ball. The hawkeye ramp is probably the easiest shot in the game of the main shots. Shoot this a few times and Loki mb starts. There's a lot more going on here for a novice player than xmen.

The right side is very difficult. Both BW and ironman. The other oddity in this game is that the location of right side shots is slightly off from any other game. Walking up to this game that I've played hundreds of times, it still takes me a good three games to readjust to these shot locations. But once adjusted I can flow the BW ramp in succession. I think the adjustment to the shot locations makes a decent player think they'll never hit the shots and lose interest. It's unfortunate but untrue.

As for enjoyment, I think I enjoy my avengers more than my xmen and definitely more than my acdc. And if a new player "flails" (as you said) on acdc they get one reward - the outlanes.

Stupid browser errors

I called your post a troll thread? When was that? I don't recall ever posting that. Maybe you can direct me to it? I've posted in defense of people not getting their MOPs. Whatever. The "Mob Rules" around this place are stereotypical.

_{Post edited by TheFamilyArcade : Dude...I told you to take a chill pill for your pinball fever...because you were blowing your stack and talking about litigation! It was good advice. But just make something up and post that I called you a troll instead. Pinside is mostly make believe anyway...people make stuff up all the time.}

PinballCorpse: every shot on Avengers pretty much contributes to your overall mission as well. No character shots are "wasted" unless sometimes if they occur during Loki MB or a "Vs." Mode. I'm pretty sure of that. And for the most part you can keep track of how every shot is contributing to your mission. ACDC can feel alot more random. And I wish I could slow down the way ACDC shows your points/bonus at the end of each ball. ACDC much more of a free for all, which I think can turn off an inexperienced player.

How on Earth do you turn this:

Into this? Are you a friggin' alchemist or something?

My general statement was meant to convey that for any game that has difficult shots it can alienate and frustrate casual players who would eventually like to see something other than the game's bash toy.

I have no agenda or personal objection to X Men or Avengers but can appreciate people disliking the games because of the shot difficulty.

Lastly, can people still appreciate the games and have fun? Of course! It is not all or nothing where a game must be either awesome or terrible by consensus. I am just offering observations, not the solution to a mathematical equation

We're in agreement. I was just elucidating on Avengers gameplay. I've played it alot yet the gameplay is finally sinking in after 3 months. Unless I have a couple quick drains or am not concentrating, I find I'm getting to 100M way more often and yet still finding new ways to play or think about the game. That to me is the mark of a strong game. "Do I really want to hit this shot or wait until I've archived x,y,z? Should I studiously avoid x until I accomplish y? Etc. avengers is loaded with that in having multiple, interesting combinations of choices.

Your right, and you'd probably handle it better....but when someone declares that YOU are prone to threats of violence...that its a common occurrence..and it's a lie...you might behave differently.

There's profane and there's unethical.

_{Post edited by TheFamilyArcade : To make an important distinction in posts that seems, generally, to be overlooked in Pinside moderation.}

Guy, it is all in how your read it. I know of only one implied threat of violence from you, but that's more than most/any other members I can think of. You flying off the handle... that seems pretty common from my perspective.

Someone commenting on a game you own sending you into a frenzy? That seems to be a weekly thing.

Just my perspective. If you can't handle that, I suggest you put me on ignore.

Lol. You're funny. Put you on ignore? Why would I put anyone on ignore? Ignore is for babies in an incubator. I live in the real world. Lots of BS in the real world and im not shy about stating my opinions on it. And I choose my battles carefully. i know exactly what im doing...so if i havent apologized (and ive done so on Pinside) Im not sorry.

Handling you is like handling a cotton ball. Lightweight. Kinda insignificant.

.

pool_fart.gif

Nope. PM a moderator; it should work.

To me it appears as you are trolling this thread and trying to make trouble. If someone made a threat against you notify the staff and we will take a look. No need to turn this thread into Days of Our Lives.

Believe it or not minors do visit the site. The community rules are set to keep this a friendly environment for pinheads to discuss pinball related stuff. If you prefer a pinball site with little to no rules and no moderation they are out there and may be a better fit.

I give what I get dude. No more, no less. I don't get, I don't give. You can look it up.

I like turtles!

I should have known this would be a time wasting thread just from looking at the title, this is one of those 'straight to the last page' threads. BTW, am I the only one who hates when someone posts a new thread with a title that gives you no clue what-so-ever what the point is? For example, "should I?" then the posts reads " buy (enter name here) this game?" . Not talking about this particular post, this one was easy to figure out, but I wish some posters would put more descriptions in the title so you don't have to waste your time opening posts on subjects your not interested in.......

Hey give 'em a chance still early ok

I'm jumping in well after the derail, but I figure I should put in my .02.

Ok, so I've tried hard to like Avengers. I actually played it a good 20-30 times more at RMPS. It's just not good. In fact, it's bad. The layout is really bad. It's clunky, and it's buggy. On the plunge, the freaking Loki plastic stops the ball from getting to the top of the playfiled 1/2 the time. The Hulk drop targets are inconsistent. You can't even see the drop targets on the sides. The inlanes/outlanes are blocked. The Hulk saucer is a bounce out nightmare. The Black Widow shot bounces back out a lot, especially on back hands. The Iron Man shot is too narrow with that extra post there. Captain America is a &%$ to shoot/collect for anybody but a wizard. The plastics shake like they have shaker motors attached to them at all times firing on full speed. Hulk breaks down all the time and he traps balls even more than all the time. The Tesseract blocks key angles to shots.

It's just a mess. It doesn't feel play tested and it doesn't feel satisfying to shoot. I think Gomez is a good designer, but this was a swing for the fence and a total strike out. It's a shame, because the theme is a true top shelf theme, but the layout and gameplay is a cellar dweller.

Truth.

"The Tesseract blocks key angles to shots." - Can you elaborate? it doesn't block anything but maybe the "K" in the hulk dropdowns and that is only when it would stop flush across the front. It doesn't block BW from either flipper or the hulk.

From the left flipper it only really blocks the K, but from the right flipper it blocks more. But really, it's just seems to be a case of putting too much into one space. The cube probably shouldn't even be in the game. It doesn't help that the cube breaks off easily too. One of the RMPS machines had lost its cube by day 2.

Take out the cube, widen BW by 1/4" and reduce the sharpness of the turn as it goes up, and it would be a better flowing game. There are still plenty more problems with the playfield though.

Avengers LE Mini-Review (my $.02)

Pros: Great theme, great art, great sounds, solid rules, unique layout, tough shots.

Cons: Ball traps (hulk and bw ramp), and obstructed views (Thor drops, LOKI lanes, IM shot).

Takeaway: Solid players' game that could have used a bit more attention to detail on the playfield layout (see cons). Sure as hell doesn't "suck soooo bad".

I think a lot of the problems is the game needing to be tweaked so it plays well. I have been playing a Hulk that's been tweaked and it plays great. Yes some shots are tight but after a couple games i figured out where to hit and have been doing pretty well on it. Maybe it helps i am an Avengers fan and have the music cranked up. We all have our opinions but for me the game is Great and i have no plans to sell and didn't buy it to make a buck.

This mostly BS or not really an issue. My drop targets work fine. My Hulk works fine. In fact the Hulk is the best bash toy ever in my opinion. Black widow is tough, but that's what I love. Iron man is a bit narrow for a loop/ end shot, but not a big deal. Captian America is fine, what's the problem? tesseract is fine and a cool toy. I like the rear curve targets that send the ball towards the hulk eject saucer. the Hulk saucer is cool, you use Black Widow to hit it when it's crucial, other than that it's a bit of a luck thing. LOTR had the same thing. My plunger lane was tweaky at first but now is OK. Love the challenge of this game and it's just fun. It's a keeper. Don't listen to the frustrated pinheads. I am not a great player, but love the game. And don't try and backhand black widow, it rarely works.

To be honest, out of the box mine was this way. But it's not now. Properly tweaking and setting up the game is important. It's a shame most ops won't take the time to do so. Of these issues, I solved:
- Loki plastic moved
- drop targets all fixed by adding a shelf so they stay up
- inlane visibility with led on lane switches
- BW ramp rejects solved with spacing up plastic (note: its not really a backhand able shot by design)
- hulk hole rollouts solved with some tape on hole above
- Thor target issue not so much an issue because there are lights in front showing their state
- K target shot not a problem either. I consider it part of the game and hulk assembled seems to be plenty easy.

It's a shame so much has to be done to make the game play well. But the game is very fun now that its all done.

Random question. Anyone know if Avengers Premium is selling at all?

^
This. Tesseract blocks....nothing. It really is a shame that the game does need some serious fine tuning to play 100%, because it sounds like far too many people are missing out on one of the best pins ever and the best layout in years and years. This game is unbelievably fun. It sincerely bums me out how many people think otherwise. Such a waste if they can't find the genius in the game. Hawanwu said it first, but its true, this and ACDC side by side is all you need to stay jacked. The fact that I can also play TFLE, SM and csi is just an embarrassment of riches.

I'm just confused by the whole machine. Why aren't there any good flow shots? Not a single shot gets the ball back to the flippers with any reasonable amount of time. Why are the orbit entries so far away and so tight? Why is so much of the structure stacked plastic that wobbles so much? It's an outlier in recent Stern pins as far as flimsiness and quality goes, for sure.

I also noticed that Hulk's right hand gets really beat up. That's a shame, and I'm sure that repro right arms will be a hot item before long. Cubes are falling off way too often too. Is the ball striking the cube, not just the post?

Code updates will come, so I can look past the wonkiness of some of the rules. I just don't think you have a layout that can be elevated too much with code.

This was a game I really wanted to be good. Stand it up next to X-Men or AC/DC that released around it, and there's really no contest. Both trounce it in regards to layout and build quality.

Jar155, you're missing out, that's all I can say. I'm sorry too. A well meaning sorry.

Well hit shots to CA and IM will be back on your flipper as fast as any shot in any game ever. Yes. I said that. A solid BW shot gets there quick too, but not as.

The code has already fixed the hulk arm problem, and Stern will send new arms if you say please. My cube was fine. Just ugly. But now I have ZDoors cube. I was thinking ACDC might actually have the better overall lightshow...but the cube mod pushes Avengers back over the top. Best light show in pinball.

I have not encountered your issues with the plastics wobbling. Maybe I'm too psyched to crank my next shot to notice what's moving. I guess it doesn't bother me.

If you're ever in NYC come and play my AVLE it'll convert you!

I'm happy you love it. I just don't. Can't.

?? The two ramp shots and the Captain America loop return the ball fast enough. I also own a Wolverine and I prefer Avengers LE. Sometimes genius is unappreciated by the masses at first.

This is definitive proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me, Avengers has the worst art package in recent memory. Which is saying something, since we're in the canned photoshop era of pinball, where even the average game looks bad compared to decades ago.

Kudos to Stern for taking a huge leap from the nadir of cut & paste, to the first mass-produced hand drawn game in... eight years? (NASCAR is the last pin I'd call primarily hand drawn. Family Guy has nice insert lettering, but way too much photoshop gradient all over the playfield.)

I think that the art on Avengers is nice, especially given the constraints of the license. ALL Avengers stuff out there uses the same dang images. There's just not a lot to work with, and Stern did a good job with what they were provided. Compare it something like Rolling Stones (same situation) and it's night and day. Avengers looks pretty dang good, bet it Pro, Premium, or Hulk LE.

It is really not that big of a deal that some don't care for a pin you enjoy. I really wanted to like Avengers myself but ended up not caring for it at all. No big deal just one pinheads preference doesn't mean it will be any less enjoyable for those that do like it.

I agree with the OP, I was really looking forward to Avengers.
Spent countless hours and $$$ playing it, trying to get into it but walked away every time just scratching my head.

Oddly enough this is the one game I can play more than any other including ACDC. I literally spent my day off from 8am to 11pm playing it. Works for me. But I learned a long time ago games are so varied for many folks.

I just think that if a pins good it'll win you over. The "clicks" point an be shorter or longer....and it certainly helps when you own the pin. Lotr was love at first site. SM was not. When SM finally clicked for me it was like the clouds parting and sunshine streaming in. And i had to have one. Avengers and ACDC didn't happen right away, but when they did, BAM.

Pretty sure ill never have that moment with Nip It. But I get there with the intrinsically good games. It happened with WOF, csi, WPT, 24 and PoTC to name a few. And Fish Tales and TOTAN and MB and Corvette to name some b/w. Games that, incidentally, don't hold a candle to AV, but the main point being I thought I'd hate them all (except PoTC, Totan abd MB) and I found they have their charms.

This machine out of the box really needs some serious mods and unless you play a huo from a pinsider you will never really have a good experience. I don't want to generalise but usually machines on location kinda suck. Owners don't really care and don't mod them. $$$$ that's all.

My first experience with X-men on location almost made me throw up. Glass all scratch, machine not even levelled. Even the guy extend the drains to attract more balls down there. Did'nt leave it there. Still want to play more on a descent machine cause I know it has potential.

Still don't want to convert anyone. Not a reseller or flipper just a player. And yes lately I play alot more on it than ACDC. Really a good challenge, hard shots but rewarding and you can really have a good flow with practice. Sometimes captain america shot comes right back at me so fast I strike out.

I like Avengers better than X-Men..................Am I going to hell when I die?

I feel the same way....guess we just have great taste in pins!!!!

I guess if the Avengers is sent to hell that's where i'm going

Unfortunately, it appears that many that are criticizing the game mention specific issues that they have with games on route that are almost entirely about dialing in the game. The operators put out the game without doing the tuning us Home Use owners are doing and they get a somewhat bad experience with the gameplay. That is very unfortunate because they are missing out on a game that plays very well when dialed in that has a unique layout, cool lighting, great sound, and good rules with well executed theme.

I had 5 guys over recently, 4 of them pinsiders with impressive collections and alot of enthusiasm for pins. My kids also hung out awhile and played. One guy already knew he liked AV, so he spent more time on other games... But AV was played the least by far. People weren't sure what to do, shots were hard to make, hard to get anything going...CSI and TFLE though were surprise favorites. A couple guys just couldn't stop commenting on good they were, being as they are frequently knocked. ACDC was my new game and that certainly got a lot of attention. And I didn't even try to get these guys going on AV. I knew that in a loud, raucous party with 3 and 4 player games going regularly and lots of chatter that breaking Avengers down for them and digging in wasn't going to happen. Interestingly, SM was practically ignored....

I don't think anyone left excited about AV, but if two or three of them came over for 3 solid hours of focused play on Avengers they'd be hooked. Learning rules, strategy and getting the shots down, Im sure of it. It's that kinda game.

3 hours to like a game family arcade? Sounds like torture to me not fun. When is someone going to say this shot is so much fun or combo or anything? All I hear is not for casual player which to me means not fun for most.

IM to BW shot is one of the best 2-hit combos ever.

There, now go do it and see, see the light

Thanks eskaybe if I find one on location I will be sure and try and hit that combo.

What I don't get is even if you have a bum leg and a missing eye, you can get Hulk multiball on Avengers, which is a blast. Hitting Hawkeye is a blast. The Tesseract is glowing. It's exciting even if you suck.

All that you mentioned is easy to get but none of them are really fun or have ANY flow at all. I think that's the reason a lot of people don't enjoy it not because they suck or have a leg disability (why would that affect someone enjoying a pin?).

I also find it a bummer that most people that hate this game have all cited issues that are generally solved by anyone that owns the game. I realize that this is how stern made the game so its fair to judge it this way. However, the game I have, let's called it "Avengers plus". It may not be the exact game stern shipped, but on a couple hours of work it became what stern shipped, minus lots of the annoyances people are complaining about. I would assume most people would just do these things, but its obvious they didn't. I think the OP's original statement is quite fair. Unfortunately, I don't view that as the game I own.

that may be true, I wouldn't rule out me liking the game set up better but I can only judge based on the location games I've played and I wasn't a fan. Each to their own though, I like other pins that a lot of people don't like and a lot of people like other pins I don't like. At the end of the day everyone has their own preferences and things they enjoy. I love NBA and I find NFL boring, that's my choice and that's why we have lots of variety in entertainment for different peoples needs.