Is it wrong to defend a product you know to be better than most are depicting? No.

Is it wrong to defend said product due to feelings of inadequacy from buying a turd unseen? Perhaps.

Is it wrong to defend a product purely for the reasons of recouping money due to buying an undesirable title? ABSOLUTELY YES!!!!

Actually, I would take an IJ (Williams!) over any Stern including Avengers. Probably Fishtales too.

I was waiting for the obvious to rear its beautiful head

At say $7K (~ shipped new price) I would certainly take BOTH an IJ and a Fishtales .

That should put into perspective how much these LE's cost, if any was needed. And how much has to go right for them to "hold" their NIB value, let alone shoot above it.

I will make that trade if you drive to Akron Ohio.

Not that this is universally the case, but I think that the hype on these new LE's spreads like a virus as so many buy them sight-unseen. The early adopters hype the crap out of it, so more people buy it sight-unseen. Then those guys hype the crap out of it and so on and so on. You need these sort of 'reality check' threads to balance things out. Obviously TAV is not a really a 'turd', but greatest game ever made? Better than XMen? Better than even FT? I think you can do a lot better for the money, but this is all open to discussion and that's what these forums are for.

Brian

It's not the greatest game ever made. It's way better than fish tales. I like xmen a lot but I like avengers more than xmen. It's not the best bang for the buck, but I don't consider price relevant when discussing how good a game is or isn't. It would be a factor in whether or not one should purchase. But not in simple fun factor discussions.

Can those two things be seen seperately?
If you judge by most comments alone, you would think not.

I agree a 100%. I bought into the "hype" and bought the pin without playing it during the first few weeks of release. While I would not classify it as a complete "turd", I was extremely disappointed with the pin compared to the AC/DC Premium I had just picked up. AC/DC was perfect right out of the box. With my Hulk, I immediately had issues with the backbox lock, one of the metal leg protectors was not centered, the ball shooter issues, etc. For a little over $7K, I was not impressed. I expect better QC for that kind of cash.

After my first week of owning the pin, I knew it wasn't for me. Some shots were frustratingly difficult and not being the best player, it sort of took the "fun" out of playing it. It just wasn't fun to play like AC/DC. The "hype train" was still in full effect here on pinside, but I knew it wasn't for me so I jumped off and sold it right away. Since then I've seen several Hulk LE's for sale, so I get the feeling I wasn't the only one that felt that way.

conspiracy? ha. you and rob are just a little <edited> when it comes to bashing on the old TFA. It's So predictable. Do you guys light up a cigarette in bed together after your latest bash session? Throw in Cobray and AkumaZeto and the 4 of you could probably go on for 5 minutes without repeating yourselves. I just wonder if any of you could actually beat me at pinball. That's about the only curiosity I've ever had about any of you...except maybe how some unibomber dude from WI without a credit card actually got a job at Stern, let alone lost a job at Stern.

_{Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : No personal attacks please.}

Though valid points, they have nothing to do with the design of the game. You're talking build quality. Which, following the initials posters logic would thus make Stern a turd, not Avengers.

Regardless, I like the game. There are a few others I would rather have but none that I am willing to trade out for a the current "pinside assigned TMV".

It would probably be worse if 86% of pinside didnt have you on ignore.

i have to say your Avengers review sucks...but you nailed it on your Cobray review.

did you have to use your stumpy little toes to figure out that % CF?

did you have to use your stumpy little toes to figure out that % CF?

Always do my friend!

images.jpeg

IBTL

Sorry, you are correct but it did seem like shooter lane design did contribute to it being so clunky. As far as other design flaws, I felt that the BW ramp with the spinner at the entrance and where it separated was a design flaw that led to a clunky feel to the game.

Again, just my opinion and my experience with owning the pin.

Apparently there should be a new pinside rule: Don't make threads criticizing any game The Family Arcade owns.

How many times has this played out now? Too many to count.

Or someone should just write a script to auto populate these threads.

-Disparaging remark made about game The Family Arcade feels the need to defend to the death.
-Remark by TFA
- Escalating remarks from CF and others and TFA
- TFA goes insane and starts implying threats of violence via PM or just calls someone the unibomber on a public forum
-Remarks back to TFA though obviously they are not going to impact his concrete head
-Thread lock

Could anybody tell the difference between a random collection of what has been previously written the umpteen times this has beeen happened, and a legit new thread? I would be curious to find out...

The argument that a game is fun if one can make tight shots is a not a good defense for a game.

No game is fun if a player can't make the shots or feel like they are making progression towards SOMETHING.

Look at AC/DC. (I'll get back on topic shortly) One big appeal has to be that even flailing or random shots HELP the player. All target banks help toward Album mb, all ramp shots help toward Jam mb or maybe even loads the cannon, random orbit shots help toward Tour mb. Random shots up the middle ring the bell etc. In the Premium, a player can stumble into playing in Hell. Something is always happening to the player's benefit even if the ball is doing its own thing. (Clearly the better player one is, even more fun is derived)

In X-Men and Avengers much more precision shooting is required. So unless the player is content bashing on Wolverine or HULK all day, accurate shooting is real important, maybe too important. Translation-the game may be too demanding for the average player to have fun.

X-men has some very challenging shots. Storm is way more difficult than its mirror friend in TRON. (The geometry sacrifice was that Rogue is better than GEM). Xavier gives people fits. Beast requires a threaded shot, Iceman looks like it should be an easy ramp, but... and so on. All of these shots are required for various modes to progress towards Danger Room and Dark Phoenix. At least with Villain progression one is not doomed when playing the Villains. But still, the player is constantly trying to make tight shots, and if they miss, recover and hit those shots again. Does it make it a bad game-No, but it knocks the fun factor down several notches when the player is missing.

So now let's look at Avengers. (I am not a rule expert on this pin, but I have played it more than 3 times ). Black Widow is satisfying-when it is made. I see lots of bricked shots on this ramp (others and me included) and it takes a lot of shots to get things going. It is not backhand friendly (can be done here and there, but don't count on it).

That saucer in the upper left part of the playfield is either hit and hope or again hit a tight shot on the Black Widow ramp. Loki/Hawkeye is tight as well, but very makeable. (As I mentioned earlier this is probably the safest shot on the game and the employed strategy for many). The Iron Man and Captain America shots are also tight. Yes they can all be made, but that is not the point.

In X-Men and Avengers there is not much for casual players to stumble into-certainly not a casual player/owner of a 6-7K pin. (Disclosure: I own X-MenLE and I personally enjoy it, but IMO it really is not new/casual player friendly). That is a key area where games like X-Men and Avengers struggle IMO. (Another quick aside: I love TFLE and it suffers some of this as well-either a player is hitting things dead on or they are in trouble).

So to sum up: To make the argument that a game is good only when a player shoots well is a bit of a slap in the face to the average player-which most people are-that is the definition of average.

Good games give players front end candy, middle level objectives and deeper goals. The rewards are commensurate with one's skill level. To say a player needs laser precision to appreciate a game is making an excuse for a game's shortcomings.

Hulk and Loki multiball are relatively easy to get. To me this negates and does make it fun for the average user.

If I'm going to drive that far I'd rather get your Baywatch for it. It would be more worthwhile for me.

None of Tron, XMen, or Avengers is easy for a casual player to get into. I don't rate or rank games based on how easy they are. I like to be challenged and all three of these games present challenge even for highly ranked players for one reason or another.

Bingo, hence the almost universal popularity of games like AFM and MM.

That's correct. HULK is supposed to be relatively easy and that is what I meant by bashing Wolverine and HULK all day. These are the "hey hit me" shots. But X Men is more than Wolverine mb and Avengers is more than HULK mb

Damn, that's good stuff right there.

You know for a corpse you still have good working brains, some living people here could learn from this.

My opinion too, actually. This game is surely turd-ish, but only because it's low budget. It has a great theme though.

The_Avengers.jpg

Well IMO it really is especially when some (like myself) prefer and enjoy a pin in the collection that has a high degree of difficulty that provides a rush when you are clicking on all cylinders. When you put in the time to hit precision shots the game opens up and begins to shine. Some don't prefer that type of challenge that requires practice with precision which is fine. Saying that the game is fun because it has a layout that rewards you for hitting tight shots is just as valid as stating that the shots are too challenging to hit and I can't get flowing so I don't like it. As always to each their own.

so how then is it too "demanding for the average player to have fun"? I'd consider myself an average player. The game is lots of fun for me and much more fun than STTNG in my experience

Just because you consider yourself an average player, doesn't mean you are one.

My search for "average pinball player" revealed this pic. Is that you Hobby???

I'd consider myself an average player.

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No - but with the qualifier no one on the board knows that average player.............. she is welcome to come and play any of my pinballs whenever she likes.

I've actually been noticing the thread locks lately and I've had nothing to do woith any of them. This place is equal opportunity when it comes to misbehavior.

Let me fix your breakdown for you, as per my typical participation in a thread:

1) someone starts a troll thread (never me) and states an opinion from the mindset of a 2 year old child (x game "sucks" or is a "turd"..."will Metallica fit in my collection with the new Star Trek and JJP's Hobbit?"
2) Thread is going merrily along without me - probably steadily downhill towards an eventual lock on its own...but with numerous posts highlighting the idiocy of the original troll post...or agreeing with it in mind numbing vacuity.
3) I choose to participate because, gee, I probably know a thing or two about the game being trashed if I own it. So I offer up a post, typically well reasoned and supported with examples, facts, and yes, my own opinons
4) Some yahoo like yourself notices that TFA is posting and without any regard for what I actually write makes a wisecrack or insult, or mis-quotes me (typically out of context) or "refutes" something I didn't actually say because they couldn't understand it or wouldn't, being blinded by the furious desire to hate on the bilious, vile misanthrope TFA
5) I respond to whatever bullshit is posted...key word "respond"...
6) Robt, Centerflank, Cobray and los hermanos Gambit (Texas and canada) start their little <edited> about how everyone hates the TFA and I'm a troll and an idiot blah blah blah.

so you're right on cue.

_{Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : 2nd time I had to edit this out please stop with the insults.}

Oh, and I'd like anyone else here to post a pm where I "threaten" violence! That is such a laugh. I pm'ed Cobray that he'd have a problem if he continued to lie about me... and he will...the <edited> posted my PM - what an <edited>. If I posted the PMs he sent me after - especially where he invokes his 8 year old son - OMG what an <edited>!! - you'd see what an imbecile the guy is. But I'd never do that...because I'm not a <edited>. What's private stays private. Although there's a long PM exchange I could make public where one of the heroes on these boards tries double dealing a game to me and another member. I'm sure that would make very interesting fodder for Pinside...but I'd never air this out publically...because I'm not a <edited>.

_{Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : Multiple personal attacks name calling and profanities used. This type of behavior is a violation of community rules please stop.}

If you have so many people calling you out, maybe the problem isn't with them?

How come a phrase like " butt hurt" can be used over and over but a phrase like "circle j---" is considered profane? And is As-Ha- now verboten? Along with "doo-h"? These are time honored pinside staples.

The wag you editted my post suggests I usef far worse words than I did. Which is fine witj me when the subject is Cobray.

I've asked you to stop with your negative personal attacks & profanity. So please just stop it I don't need the old explanation that everyone does it and it doesn't get edited. We do the best we can but can't catch everything.

Oh I helped in a thread lock ,because I said distributors jobs were easy. And five minutes later boom "please shut down thread ". Not my intention but I am ornery this week.

Cubs suck

This thread is a good example of why Robin's idea of having thread bans for particular posters would be a great idea.

IBTL

Just ban the family arcade, his outbursts are immature and ruin the forums. I don't even know a lot of people on here, but every time there seems to be problems, he's the #1 agitator.

On top of that, he deliberately posts multiple posts in every thread trying to build points. Just waters things down.

Ack, you said it again! Boom

You can't ban him his intellect is far superior. Just keep reading, he will prove it.

BANHAMMER!!!!!! I know he has 2 warnings next to his name already!

Family arcade said >>> " someone starts a troll thread (never me) and states an opinion from the mindset of a 2 year old child "
Who made you.? or any other one of the flamers here on pinside Judge ,Jury, Executioner on what people post here.
You called my Post a Troll Thread and it was far from it . I was angered a Full paid MOP LE on April 11th was pulled from me and since I am a Single guy with no kids, I treated it(MOP LE) as such only to have a miscarriage (sorry women for that ref) .
Boy was I fumed and upset . Came on for some Digging up others (members) with Paid in full receipts to possibly do a group thing (Class action)or even some sympathy , but got flamed from one side of the forum to another , Gave up due to no others coming forward .. Gave up the quest of my Single suit due to it not being cost effective, Ordered a Premium and moved on .. Will choose a better Vendor for ST . But seriously, people who flame others on here need to grow up and stop the bs .
Sorry for my Behavior those few days !! It's Pinball. Supposed to be a Fun Hobby .. Carry on and play Pinball .

p.s , Do you need so much Karma points to be able to Ignore someone ? Mine does not function

Shhhh. Pinside secret # 27: No one really ignores anyone...they just say they do.

They are welcome to ban me but I try not to attack others. Not sure what your so upset about bcgambit you seem to be trolling me. Want to say something about my English level? Shoot go for it, I know I am weak at my given language. Sorry I dropped out at 9th grade and I do not meet your standards.

Regardless of that gambit if you knew me and what I have accomplished you would zip it.

We could compare our paycheck or bank accounts and you would find my english level has not held me back in life. But please continue to judge me and act like you can belittle me. If you want you can try but you may find despite you grading my posts I can still make a good point every once in awhile.

I see nothing wrong with the family arcade speaking his mind. Why is everyone so sensitive around here and the zero cursing well I try to follow that but it's silly there are no kids on here and it's a forum . Most are middle aged men or teens who cannot afford a machine yet (kwikimart not included) who could probably handle a f bomb once in awhile.

Oh back on topic Avengers is terrible I hate it with a passion and I hope Stern goes back to there glory with Metallica and Star Trek both of which I will own.

Well this turned in to a real shit show.

So reading between the lines......ACDC teabags Avengers.