---------CUT AND PASTED FROM YOUR OTHER SUGGESTIONS THREAD----------

Okay, after about 2 weeks of owning my own ST prem, I'm ready to weigh in (not like anyone was waiting for it, Hardeeharhar). I'll do my very best to just keep the critiques/requests vague and constructive, rather than just say, "I think my idea is better, they should do this....." And then tell "them" what to do......although having said that, I'm sure I'll have a couple moments of weakness where I'll get specific

-----NOTE: this is all my opinion; pinball is subjective, if your opinion differs from mine; that's awesome. I welcome counter points, but I doubt it will get me to change my opinion.-----

Overall, flow aside, ST plays pretty flat, IMO. I can't play more than 2 or 3 games without getting "bored" and moving on to something else. This fatigue is mainly due to the "chopping wood" nature of the mode layout and content.

The modes feel like work, as others have previously stated. And I agree that ST has "fake depth", it touts 18 modes, but most of them are exactly the same, save some minor differences. And the biggest issue with this code, currently, is that there's no "lateral movement" in gameplay, or side goals. You pretty much just keep building up the grid, with stacking one Multiball at a time being the only lateral movement, which ends up being pretty shallow. In fact, you can't even stack a Multiball into every mode. I know that I was playing Nero II and started Vengeance MB and it paused Nero II until I exited out of VMB, which I thought was kinda dumb. This game needs something like Deadpool in XM, or Crank It Up/Fuel Scoring/Lady Justice in MET, a side mode that you can always work towards, no matter what mode or Multiball you're in. But anywho, I'll just go through, section by section, giving my long winded, convoluted opinion

-------Mission Grid-------
I think the basic idea of the Level one missions is good: you get a certain amount of time to make as many points as you can before the mode ends in order to get awarded 1/2 the total mode amount (I believe it's 1/2) as the 2nd JP shot for that corresponding shot in KM Multiball. The modes just need FOCUS. They all seem identical, so I feel like I'm playing the same mode 6 times with different colors and DMD animations. And while there ARE differences in how the shots light and which shots are lit for these modes, it's not drastic enough to give the modes any "personality" and they still all feel the same. FOCUS is my suggestion. For instance: Nero III is basically a loops round; shoot the left or right loops 5-6 times to finish the mode. So Why not make all the Nero missions similar in goal? So Nero is shoot the left or right loops to get as many points as possible within 25-30 seconds. Nero II is make 6 left or right loops, period, no timer, and your progress is saved should you drain. Nero III is shoot 6 left or right loops within a 55 second period, with no progress saved if you drain of time out the mode. I use specifics to give example to why Maybe a principal similar to this is needed for all tiers?

This is needed because whether level 2 or 3 missions are timed or not is inconsistent. Some modes are timed, some aren't. Yes, you can sit and memorize which missions are timed or not, but it's much more easy and accessible if the tiers all follow the same "laws". Like the above Nero scenario, for instance. Level I missions have a small timer to collect as many points as possible to bring into KM Multiball, and are completed when it times out. Level II missions have no timer, but require a set amount of shots and save progress if you drain like some of them are now. Level III combines the two previous tier "laws" to have a 50-60 sec timer with a set amount of shots to complete mode, no progress saved if drained or timed out. This way, the player can expect the overall parameters of each mission tier to behave the same, while still making sure each tier has a higher difficulty than the previous tier.

Some may be thinking, "But Ryan, won't it be super boring if, like in your Nero example, each Nero mission is the same loop shots as the goal?" In short: no, I don't think so. I would much rather have 3 missions that have same focused goal, with rising difficulty, than have 18 modes that all play somewhat the same -_-. I hope that makes sense. I think it's okay to have each specific mode to have the same focused lit shot goals to complete for all three tiers, so long as the difficulty and parameters change along with each tier. And any such boredom would only set in if you're going straight for the three missions high; but if you go around to the other missions, that also have differently focused shot goals for the mode, you'll always be getting a change in gameplay focus. There's 18 modes, people, it is unavoidable to not have repetitive shot goals for modes with that many modes. But my point stays: I'd much rather have 3 modes that play the same, with raising difficulty, than have 18 modes that all practically feel and play the same anyways.

Off my soapbox (about time)

-------Vengeance Battle Rounds-------
I like the vengeance battle Multiball round to start off with; it's fun and players can figure out what to do, a good, fun and accessible Multiball for many player types.

The second Vengeance Scoring round is good as well, still good. Got the raptor pit kickback gimmick going on. Scoring is fine, but I think a little low for the risk.

The third Vengeance round is......the same as the second....-_-. Boo. I don't like the Vengeance Scoring mode THAT much to want to play it again. Again, the risk/reward is just not good enough IMO. in it's place I will make my only real suggestion to the programmers of what to do (hey, I said I would probably break down and do it ) since this is three "levels" into the Vengeance modes, I feel like it needs to have some pretty good risk/reward to it, since it's a good achievement to make it that many Vengeance missions in.

I propose to have another Multiball round for a final Vengeance battle. 4 ball Multiball mode where the goal of the mode is simple: lock balls and light the SJP shot with a dynamic value dependent on how many balls are locked. Basically like T2, which I thought pretty appropriate seeing as how it's another Ritchie game ^_^. The three lock areas would be the left eject, the Vengeance and the Away Team shot into the shooter lane. So, let's say you lock a ball in the eject, the Vengeance and the away team, so you have one ball in the play. Then the Warp ramp would light for a SJP. SJP would start at 5mil and would increase by 250k (or whatever) for each non-lock shot hit., to a cap of, let's say, 10mil. When you lock a ball it starts a 15 second timer, locking another ball within that time resets the timer, with all balls locked, the timer stays at 15 secs for the SJP. If the timer ever reaches 0, all locked balls are released. If you drain a ball, the game will keep track of how many "valid" balls are in play, therefore if you have all four still in play, it knows to light the SJP after you lock three, if you have three balls in play, then it knows to light the SJP after locking two, and if you have two balls in play, the SJP lights after you lock one ball. The SJP is worth whatever the accumulated amount in the mode is x's the amount of balls locked. You can make multiple Warp ramp hits after the SJP shot and keep collecting the SJP amount, but after the player hits the Warp ramp for the SJP shot, the next time a non-warp ramp switch is hit, the balls release and the SJP is reset and the Multiball goes back to square one, except no extra balls get ejected. Note: in this scenario, if the player is down to three balls; the locks lit are the left eject and Away Team. If the player has only two balls in play; the Away Team is the lock shot.

In that scenario is it possible to plunge the ball "locked" in the shooter lane? Yes. But why would you want to?!

-------Klingon Multiball--------
As others have said: the SJP in this mode is SAD. I actually attained it and was a B!TCH to do....all for 3.5mil?! Boo I say to that! Should be 10mil, minimum. Other than that, I like the mode.

-------Enterprise Amok-------
EA wizard has a great opening animation, but is ridiculously long and currently is all text, aside from the opening. It's basically a switch mode with I *think* 4, maybe 5 levels. In each "level" you're going for a certain amount of switch hits to move onto the next level of the mode. Each shot on the playfield increases the eventual SJP by a certain amount. Once you get enough switch hits to get past the 4-5 levels, the vengeance light to collect the SJP amount, which can get very large. The problem is with how many switch hits are needed in the later levels. Upwards of 250 switch hits are needed past level three, I believe. That's a LOT of hits, and is definitely possible, but it's just a long way to go and could use shortening up a bit. Maybe decrease the amount of "levels" and increase the SJP amount increase per shot? Hoping that additional animations and callouts in this mode in the future make this seem less tedious.

-------5 Year Mission-------
5YM is currently pretty much the Lonnie special on PEDs. All shots are lit on playfield, except for Away Team, and you hit each shot FOUR times to unlight it. Each lit shot hit increases the SJP. Unlight all shots and then the SJP lights for the accumulated amount. No Dots really for the mode except for the opening animation, the rest is all text. But other than that, that's pretty much it. Okay I guess, it's certainly better than just the plain ol' Lonnie Special with the accumulating SJP. Will be interesting to see how the mode will get filled out with animations, hopefully they will give the mode more "personality" and "life".

-------Warp Ramp-------
The Warp ramp is the most fun shot on the playfield, aside from the Away Team. So not a lot to complain about its use other than to scale its scoring better. The add-a-ball at 9.9 is pretty cool, but I think it is overall pretty useless. God forbid you're unfortunate enough to finally hit 9.9 when in a Multiball, only to lose it :-/. The game plays so fast, and there just isn't enough good stuff that can happen by merely adding an extra ball into play. I still would like to see it stay in there, but bring in some other "bonus" with it other than just the extra ball in play. Maybe something like a 2x playfield multiplier as long as there's the extra ball is in play (or if you're in a Multiball and already have four balls in play, the multiplier is active until you drain down to three balls)? Something like that would be cool. Other than the level three mission bonus (which is a PITA to attain) which end up not being that worth it in context, IMO, ST is lacking on playfield multiplier bonuses that are player "controlled".

-------Away Team-------
The 2nd most fun shot to hit on the playfield, I think it is criminally underutilized. Why not use it as a SJP shot? Or a valid goal shot in A mission mode (as long as it's not the last shot). I dunno, just use it for something else other than just to start a mission mode, please!

-------Pops-------
The pops levels mean nothing to me; the scoring just doesn't make a meaningful dent in the game currently.....Unless there's something I'm missing, haha. Give some better meaning to the pops levels, give me a REASON to want to keep my ball in the pops during gameplay. Maybe tie them into a side mission? *shrug*

-------Trek Lanes-------
They increase the spinner level, which is okay I guess. They can make a Super Spinner shot worth 125k+ a spin rather than 110k and such. But again, the benefit of completing the lanes doesn't really make me go out of the way to make sure I keep completing them. I'm not hyper aware of keeping the lanes completed like I do on ACDC or XM, where lane completions mean a lot to the game play. I'd like to see them have greater impact for scoring or gameplay.

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Overall, this game just needs nuance, side goals and a little focus to keep players of all skill levels coming back for more and more, rather than having a great couple of fun games and then moving on due to the repetition.

Seeing as how I wrote a goddamn novel, I applaud anyone sphere who was able to suffer through my longwindedness, lol. You deserve a medal!!

Having said all this, I'm sure Steve, Tanio and the rest of the "crew" have some great stuff up their sleeve and hopefully will address a lot of this stuff in later update(s) with some more cool ideas that none of us even considered

We definitely differ in opinion for Enterprise Amok. I really wouldn't qualify it as "badass", it has a great opening animation, but the mode is all text after with no call outs. The gameplay for it currently is interesting, but is overlong and "lifeless". Hit a shot to lock that shot in for that "level" to add 200k a shot to the SJP, then get the necessary # of switch hits to move on to the next "level", get past the 4th...or maybe 5th level to light that SJP for the accumulated amount. With over 250 switch hits for the later levels, it's just too much of the same for me and doesn't give me an "experience" that would make me forgive the "shallow" rule set for the mode. As stated above; if they tighten it up a bit and make the experience more immersive with the callouts and dots, then it would be a great mode.

And I personally like EA where it is: level two wizard. If ST had some side goals/modes to go for, it wouldnt feel so tedious to get to the 2nd tier wizard and beyond. I think it would also help if all each tier followed the same "laws" like I theorized about above. I hate the confusion of whether or not a certain level 2 or 3 mode is timed or not.

Let's say that EA is qualified after attaining 2 level 3 modes, as you suggested, though. It would work if the game kept track of progress in EA throughout the game, so basically you'd have 3 chances to complete EA. Every two level 3 modes start it, and the progress picks up wherever you may have left off. If you reach the end of the mode with "chances" to spare, the next time(s) you initiate EA you would go directly into victory laps? And if you complete all level three missions; you play EA first, and then roll into 5YM?

I knew full well what I was getting into . What can I say; I'm a glutton for pain and adversity.....I think XM gave me a fetish for riding the roller coaster of early code and watch it blossom into something awesome . Besides, if the code was already great and complete, there'd by nothing for me to bitch and moan and wax philosophical about

Must disagree on this.

There's maybe one or two modes that you can get repeated left ramp hits with valid shots, and you'll get shit point at that, and after 5 left ramps in one of those modes, it'll light the right side shots. All other modes will switch off the left ramp as a valid shot after one or 2 hits.

Level one Kilngon Battle you can alternate ramps ad infinitum, but almost all the other modes if you make a left ramp--> right ramp combo the left ramp won't be lit again and you'll have to combo into the left orbit before the left ramp will light again. Unless you don't make any shots for 10 seconds, then all the shots reset.

Not *nothing*, you get a 2x multiplier for the shot associated with that mode. It's not worth the trouble of all the hassle of getting there, so yes, It does need more. But to say that nothing happens when you go three deep is false.

Absolutely correct. It may seem I'm being hyper critical, but in fact I still enjoy the game and see the potential in it. I felt the same way with XM and, in my opinion, was rewarded with great code and a great game in the end. ST is already heads and shoulders above where XM was at the same time during this time in its release period, so I would expect nothing but for it to get better.

And hey, it feels GREAT to vent! :p

Disagree.

Okay, I'll take the debate bait . All in good fun!

I do play with strategy. And in aver said the game wasn't fun. I have an absolute BLAST for the first 2 or 3 times I play it, then the mode fatigue sets in and I have to move on. Whereas I can play XM, for instance, until my eyeballs bleed because it keeps me interested and I'm always having to make decisions.

Since I'm accused of not knowing and not playing with strategy in this game; I'll layout my how I approach the modes and how I play:
Currently the most efficient path for points is KM Multiball, so that's my first goal.

-I start off with Space Jump and my main goal is to get Vengeance battle ready. Combo ramps to Vengance and try to keep it going until the mode ends, and if all goes well, by the time it's over, Vengeance battle is ready.

-start Prime Directive and immediately start Vengeance Battle 1. Frequently during Prime Directive the Vengeance shot will be a mode shot, so during the Multiball I hit the ramp combo to vengeance again to get the double SJP, as well as the increased points for the mode.

-Move onto Nero and get at least one ball lock during that. Combo it up and finish the mode.

-Move onto Destroy the Drill. More of the same.

-Move onto Save the Enterprise. More of the same, try to get the 2nd ball locked.

-complete STE and gain the dual Captain's chair bonuses. Ramps and spinner at super. Move into Klingon Battle. At the start of Klingon Battle, get the third ball lock for Klingon Multiball and get that going. With super ramps and super spinner, this mode goes gang busters. With any luck KB will complete while still in Multiball and activate the Super pops for added points, and with even MORE luck hit the SJP.

-start KM Multiball and go nuts.

-after KM is over, things open up a bit. I prefer to go straight for completing Nero. Level two Nero has no timer, but takes 8 shots, I believe. Level 3 Nero you can complete by repeatedly back handing the left ramp if you wait for the strobing shot to validate it. Nero is the easiest mode for me to top out. Now with Nero completed, I get the 2x bonus for the left orbit. During this time I try to get Klingon Multiball on deck so that I can activate it after I complete Nero.

- Start Save the Enterprise 2 and go to top it off. I usually have pretty good luck finishing all three tiers of STE. During one of the two tiers, I start Klingon MB ASAP and start working that left orbit for the 2x multiplier.

- if I get past the three STE, then I try to complete the rest of the level 2 modes, but this time I just cash in the row bonuses as soon as I can, rather than trying to get two at once. Usually my game ends by that point and I don't reach Enterprise Amok.

I know the strategy of the game. I know the value of the shots and the importance of combos. My issues have nothing to do with that, it has to do with the content of the modes themselves. They play too similarly. I chose not to mention the fact that combos add bonuses to combo'd mode shots because I have no issue with that, that's awesome. This was a thread asked to critique stuff that we would like to see changed to make that game "better".

I do consider all of those things, quite intensely (see above), and it still feels like chopping wood after the third time in a row playing. The first couple games are AWESOME, but then the fatigue sets in. ST is great in short bursts, but I think it's better than that, it should be a game that should constantly give me a case of the "one more game"s.

Correct, which is why I would never actually play it that way. Players COULD play it that way, but if they aren't comboing via a ramp shot to the orbit, then they're leaving a lot of points on the table. The combo bonus is active as long as it's a part of a combo, doesn't mean the previous shot has to be a valid shot. So yes, you could have a mode that was just the orbits as valid shots, but the comboing would still make it interesting.

Missed the point of my critique entirely. When I was talking about the tier "laws" I was speaking solely about whether or not all modes on a given tier are timed or not and whether progress is saved or not. The CONTENT of the modes as far as the shots to shoot for and the shot rules would all be different. Just the base time and progression save "rules" would be the same, which has nothing at all to do with the chopping wood feeling I get. The chopping wood feeling comes from the similar mode rules and shot goals, not at all associated with whether or not they are timed. My suggestion on each individual tier following the same time and progression "laws" was suggestion merely to make it less confusing for novice players that might be confused when they play one level 2 mode and see that it times out, yet they play another level 2 mode and then there is no timer at all. I was just trying to be a player's advocate on that point. Again, my chopping wood issues come from the mode content for valid shots being too similar.

Thanks for the snide remark, and yes, I knew that, that's why my point still stands. Vengeance Multiball has a single SJP of 5 mil that can be doubled to 10mil, and that Multiball is magnitudes of order easier to beat than Klingon Multiball. It's about risk/reward, here. Going through all the trouble to get the Klingon MB SJP lit (which is pretty challenging) only to get a Combo'd value of 7mill is ludicrous. Compared to the risk/reward of Vengeance Multiball, Klingon Multiball's SJP should be at LEAST the same as VMB, if not more. This was my point about the value being sad comparatively. Keep your shorts on. And no, I don't think I need to play my game more because I would not have posted my opinion on the current state of the pin unless I was confident that I knew everything that this current code has to offer. But I will keep on playing it anyways because it's a great pin with great potential . If you doubt my ability to learn and comprehend game's rules and features before I pontificate about it, please go see the hours and hours of time I out in to my XM rules breakdowns for each of the code releases. I spent many hours already with the glass off testing modes and learning rules and what nuance is there in ST. Anything I didn't mention in my critique/suggestion post were things I had no issue with, I like the row awards, I like the combo shot extra points. Didn't think I needed to state that in order to have a valid opinion, but I guess I did. ----sorry if that paragraph came off as douchey, I get riled up when I'm condescended to, no hard feelings ----

Yes, the potential of this pin is awesome, can't wait to see what they come up with! Its already a good pin, but with some tweaking and moving stuff around it could be an amazing pin! It's because of this potential that I'm so passionate about it, I was/am the same way about XM. I'm one of the biggest advocates for XM you'll find, but I was honest about my opinions of the state(s) of its code and what could have used some tweaking. The difference with my critiques and suggestions than some other people is that I don't feel I'm owed ANYTHING. I'm one customer with an opinion, one of thousands with different opinions, if things aren't implemented the way *I* thought would be cool! I don't care and I move on and keep enjoying the game in its current form. I think you think I don't like ST as much as I do,lol

If you're into me making what should be a one sentence reply into a novella, you've come to the right dude

I know shouldn't be doing this as I'm just fanning flames, and this is veering off topic, but here we go

I can see that. But it hasn't been *just two weeks*. I don't buy games without putting in some hours on them beforehand. I played it at the Hi-Life in Oakland a ton, and put in some quality time on The Dude Abides' ST as well as Mummite's. I don't know why you seem to be going out of your way to somehow "invalidate" my opinion. Maybe they way I'm coming off to you through this message board without any inflection is different than I intended? So let me state this: I'm not trying to be "important", I don't think I'm important, I KNOW I'm not important. I don't expect anyone but myself to agree with my opinions, I don't think I'm better than anyone else, anyone in the hobby that knows me in real life (with context and inflection in what I say) knows I'm a self deprecating and laid back guy. I'm just some idiot that posts on a message board, and I don't intend on climbing to a higher rung than that. But I don't have to be a tournament level player to have an opinion.

If you don't have common sense, then yes. But I have a little common sense, so I'm able to take the data I get from testing and apply it to formulating my own strategies. Not that big of leap. Learning the rules, to me, always goes hand in hand with developing strategy....how could it not? Maybe I'm missing something in your point?

All the testing I've done with the glass off for ST right now has been for my own amusement to make me understand the game and modes better to formulate my own strategy. I haven't done it so I can tell others how to play it, but I do have an opinion. And I haven't even done a "rulesheet" for ST. If you want to go down the XM road, I didn't make that rulesheet(s) so that I can force strategy down people's throat. I did it because a lot about the rules in XM were unknown and I wanted to help owners and players try to understand what they are trying to go for in certain modes better. And from the feedback I got, it seemed pretty successful. I didn't do it because I'm trying to be Bowen. I'll never be Bowen, I can't be Bowen. All rule sheets pale in comparison to Bowen's. No one else was doing an XM rulesheet, so I decided to take initiative and try it. I don't claim that it is a great, or even good rulesheet, but it's there for players to use, should they want. And I have the faith in the players to formulate their own strategies, as I have, from the data I get from testing. Again, this has no relevance to this thread, just to your baffling mounting "crusade" to invalidate my opnion(s). Lighten up, you're taking my opinion(s) too seriously.

How so?

LOL! Where did THAT come from?! Awesome, I'd sure you'd win, great for you. Where did you get the impression I have anything to prove to someone by playing them for money? Haha! I wouldn't play anyone ever for money; I'd lose a ton of cash . For Christi's sake; I play pinball to have fun, not to deal with the drama of someone challenging me to a "pinball fight" to prove a point(?). I have no pride to bait by making such a challenge. Literally made me laugh out loud.

Of course I took the glass off, I'm a shit player, lol. And it's because I'm not a good player that is one of the other reasons why I didnt include any strategies in with my XM rules. I can formulate something that I feel is a good strategy, but I wouldn't tout it as gospel enough to tell everyone else to do it; that's for tournament level players to do. Again, I wasn't trying to create a Bowen-esque rulesheet, I just wanted to help. Fuck me for helping, I guess haha. I love all of Bowen's rulesheets, to think that I could create something on that level is ludicrous, on multiple levels.

A valid point, I apologize, sincerely. But it's not like I snuck in the details of EA or 5YM, I put them under a title labeling what I was going to talk about. If one didn't want to know the details of a given mode, one could see the section title and just move into the next section. But regardless, should I post something of that nature in the future, I will try to be sensitive to that.

EDIT: upon me re-reading through my posts, it occurred to me that I DID discuss the EA and 5YM wizards without a section notice. Not in my initial opinions post, but in a reply post to Eskaybee. Sorry for that, I'll do my best to be more aware.

Here you go assuming, again. For one, I think I'm a just below average player, at best, so I think I'm not a great player either, haha. I do play against players better than me....which is pretty much everyone. I play with Neil when he's at the Hi-Life and I'm there, and I always look to play with people better than me. You're not breaking any news to me. And I agree that it always makes you a better player. But I'm also not TRYING to be a tournament level player. I'll probably never be *that* good. I have no desire to go to all the tournaments, I have nothing to prove to myself or anyone else. I play pinball to have FUN, first and foremost, and then I try to get as high a score as I can while I'm having fun, and fun is subjective. I went to a tournament at the Hi-Life, played with Andreas and Russ, and had fun. Think I finished dead last though, haha. But tournament stuff just isn't why I'm in the hobby. I love playing pinball, but just lack the competitive gene.

Yeah, Patterson isn't the center of anything,lol. But I travel a lot for work, so I go hang and lay at Fattrain's, or go to Mummite's and Zucot's, and Sparky is like 20 mins away from me, so I make due. I haven't contemplated a league just yet because my schedule is erratic and I don't know how "regular" I'd be. I also have crippling social anxiety with people I'm just meeting,lol. I'm very shy and it's always a bug wall to climb over, haha, but that's an issue I need to deal with; I know that others in the hobby are typically very cool and laid back people. I've met very few assholes in the 6 years or so in the hobby, thankfully. Much better asshole ratio in pinball compared to other hobbies

Totally! I missed the CAX seminar with him last year and I was pissed, lol. I didn't think it was going to be in that hall there, haha.

Okay. People other than Phishrace; have I been coming off as a know it all asshole? I'm just baffled as to what I did to get Phishrace all riled up. Did I do something wrong? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!

EDIT: and if a HAVE been coming off as a know it all asshole; it was not my intention. Sorry and I'll try to adjust the way I write to reflect as such.

Gotcha' brother, I see where you're coming from on your points now. It's all good, no hard feelings at all. And FWIW, I wasn't calling you an asshole at all, you're not one, I was making a sweeping statement about the hobby.

We'll definitely have to meet up at PAGG and play a game or two or three....or four........

I love Rob; lurk'n and like'n

Yeah, sorry about that

I was thinking the same thing. I haven't adjusted my settings to Eskaybee's suggestion yet, but I was worried that the KM points would get neutered from the shorter time to accumulate.

But then again; Eskaybee is an awesome player, so he could probably still jam in some really nice scores to bring into KM