---------CUT AND PASTED FROM YOUR OTHER SUGGESTIONS THREAD----------

Okay, after about 2 weeks of owning my own ST prem, I'm ready to weigh in (not like anyone was waiting for it, Hardeeharhar). I'll do my very best to just keep the critiques/requests vague and constructive, rather than just say, "I think my idea is better, they should do this....." And then tell "them" what to do......although having said that, I'm sure I'll have a couple moments of weakness where I'll get specific

-----NOTE: this is all my opinion; pinball is subjective, if your opinion differs from mine; that's awesome. I welcome counter points, but I doubt it will get me to change my opinion.-----

Overall, flow aside, ST plays pretty flat, IMO. I can't play more than 2 or 3 games without getting "bored" and moving on to something else. This fatigue is mainly due to the "chopping wood" nature of the mode layout and content.

The modes feel like work, as others have previously stated. And I agree that ST has "fake depth", it touts 18 modes, but most of them are exactly the same, save some minor differences. And the biggest issue with this code, currently, is that there's no "lateral movement" in gameplay, or side goals. You pretty much just keep building up the grid, with stacking one Multiball at a time being the only lateral movement, which ends up being pretty shallow. In fact, you can't even stack a Multiball into every mode. I know that I was playing Nero II and started Vengeance MB and it paused Nero II until I exited out of VMB, which I thought was kinda dumb. This game needs something like Deadpool in XM, or Crank It Up/Fuel Scoring/Lady Justice in MET, a side mode that you can always work towards, no matter what mode or Multiball you're in. But anywho, I'll just go through, section by section, giving my long winded, convoluted opinion

-------Mission Grid-------
I think the basic idea of the Level one missions is good: you get a certain amount of time to make as many points as you can before the mode ends in order to get awarded 1/2 the total mode amount (I believe it's 1/2) as the 2nd JP shot for that corresponding shot in KM Multiball. The modes just need FOCUS. They all seem identical, so I feel like I'm playing the same mode 6 times with different colors and DMD animations. And while there ARE differences in how the shots light and which shots are lit for these modes, it's not drastic enough to give the modes any "personality" and they still all feel the same. FOCUS is my suggestion. For instance: Nero III is basically a loops round; shoot the left or right loops 5-6 times to finish the mode. So Why not make all the Nero missions similar in goal? So Nero is shoot the left or right loops to get as many points as possible within 25-30 seconds. Nero II is make 6 left or right loops, period, no timer, and your progress is saved should you drain. Nero III is shoot 6 left or right loops within a 55 second period, with no progress saved if you drain of time out the mode. I use specifics to give example to why Maybe a principal similar to this is needed for all tiers?

This is needed because whether level 2 or 3 missions are timed or not is inconsistent. Some modes are timed, some aren't. Yes, you can sit and memorize which missions are timed or not, but it's much more easy and accessible if the tiers all follow the same "laws". Like the above Nero scenario, for instance. Level I missions have a small timer to collect as many points as possible to bring into KM Multiball, and are completed when it times out. Level II missions have no timer, but require a set amount of shots and save progress if you drain like some of them are now. Level III combines the two previous tier "laws" to have a 50-60 sec timer with a set amount of shots to complete mode, no progress saved if drained or timed out. This way, the player can expect the overall parameters of each mission tier to behave the same, while still making sure each tier has a higher difficulty than the previous tier.

Some may be thinking, "But Ryan, won't it be super boring if, like in your Nero example, each Nero mission is the same loop shots as the goal?" In short: no, I don't think so. I would much rather have 3 missions that have same focused goal, with rising difficulty, than have 18 modes that all play somewhat the same -_-. I hope that makes sense. I think it's okay to have each specific mode to have the same focused lit shot goals to complete for all three tiers, so long as the difficulty and parameters change along with each tier. And any such boredom would only set in if you're going straight for the three missions high; but if you go around to the other missions, that also have differently focused shot goals for the mode, you'll always be getting a change in gameplay focus. There's 18 modes, people, it is unavoidable to not have repetitive shot goals for modes with that many modes. But my point stays: I'd much rather have 3 modes that play the same, with raising difficulty, than have 18 modes that all practically feel and play the same anyways.

Off my soapbox (about time)

-------Vengeance Battle Rounds-------
I like the vengeance battle Multiball round to start off with; it's fun and players can figure out what to do, a good, fun and accessible Multiball for many player types.

The second Vengeance Scoring round is good as well, still good. Got the raptor pit kickback gimmick going on. Scoring is fine, but I think a little low for the risk.

The third Vengeance round is......the same as the second....-_-. Boo. I don't like the Vengeance Scoring mode THAT much to want to play it again. Again, the risk/reward is just not good enough IMO. in it's place I will make my only real suggestion to the programmers of what to do (hey, I said I would probably break down and do it ) since this is three "levels" into the Vengeance modes, I feel like it needs to have some pretty good risk/reward to it, since it's a good achievement to make it that many Vengeance missions in.

I propose to have another Multiball round for a final Vengeance battle. 4 ball Multiball mode where the goal of the mode is simple: lock balls and light the SJP shot with a dynamic value dependent on how many balls are locked. Basically like T2, which I thought pretty appropriate seeing as how it's another Ritchie game ^_^. The three lock areas would be the left eject, the Vengeance and the Away Team shot into the shooter lane. So, let's say you lock a ball in the eject, the Vengeance and the away team, so you have one ball in the play. Then the Warp ramp would light for a SJP. SJP would start at 5mil and would increase by 250k (or whatever) for each non-lock shot hit., to a cap of, let's say, 10mil. When you lock a ball it starts a 15 second timer, locking another ball within that time resets the timer, with all balls locked, the timer stays at 15 secs for the SJP. If the timer ever reaches 0, all locked balls are released. If you drain a ball, the game will keep track of how many "valid" balls are in play, therefore if you have all four still in play, it knows to light the SJP after you lock three, if you have three balls in play, then it knows to light the SJP after locking two, and if you have two balls in play, the SJP lights after you lock one ball. The SJP is worth whatever the accumulated amount in the mode is x's the amount of balls locked. You can make multiple Warp ramp hits after the SJP shot and keep collecting the SJP amount, but after the player hits the Warp ramp for the SJP shot, the next time a non-warp ramp switch is hit, the balls release and the SJP is reset and the Multiball goes back to square one, except no extra balls get ejected. Note: in this scenario, if the player is down to three balls; the locks lit are the left eject and Away Team. If the player has only two balls in play; the Away Team is the lock shot.

In that scenario is it possible to plunge the ball "locked" in the shooter lane? Yes. But why would you want to?!

-------Klingon Multiball--------
As others have said: the SJP in this mode is SAD. I actually attained it and was a B!TCH to do....all for 3.5mil?! Boo I say to that! Should be 10mil, minimum. Other than that, I like the mode.

-------Enterprise Amok-------
EA wizard has a great opening animation, but is ridiculously long and currently is all text, aside from the opening. It's basically a switch mode with I *think* 4, maybe 5 levels. In each "level" you're going for a certain amount of switch hits to move onto the next level of the mode. Each shot on the playfield increases the eventual SJP by a certain amount. Once you get enough switch hits to get past the 4-5 levels, the vengeance light to collect the SJP amount, which can get very large. The problem is with how many switch hits are needed in the later levels. Upwards of 250 switch hits are needed past level three, I believe. That's a LOT of hits, and is definitely possible, but it's just a long way to go and could use shortening up a bit. Maybe decrease the amount of "levels" and increase the SJP amount increase per shot? Hoping that additional animations and callouts in this mode in the future make this seem less tedious.

-------5 Year Mission-------
5YM is currently pretty much the Lonnie special on PEDs. All shots are lit on playfield, except for Away Team, and you hit each shot FOUR times to unlight it. Each lit shot hit increases the SJP. Unlight all shots and then the SJP lights for the accumulated amount. No Dots really for the mode except for the opening animation, the rest is all text. But other than that, that's pretty much it. Okay I guess, it's certainly better than just the plain ol' Lonnie Special with the accumulating SJP. Will be interesting to see how the mode will get filled out with animations, hopefully they will give the mode more "personality" and "life".

-------Warp Ramp-------
The Warp ramp is the most fun shot on the playfield, aside from the Away Team. So not a lot to complain about its use other than to scale its scoring better. The add-a-ball at 9.9 is pretty cool, but I think it is overall pretty useless. God forbid you're unfortunate enough to finally hit 9.9 when in a Multiball, only to lose it :-/. The game plays so fast, and there just isn't enough good stuff that can happen by merely adding an extra ball into play. I still would like to see it stay in there, but bring in some other "bonus" with it other than just the extra ball in play. Maybe something like a 2x playfield multiplier as long as there's the extra ball is in play (or if you're in a Multiball and already have four balls in play, the multiplier is active until you drain down to three balls)? Something like that would be cool. Other than the level three mission bonus (which is a PITA to attain) which end up not being that worth it in context, IMO, ST is lacking on playfield multiplier bonuses that are player "controlled".

-------Away Team-------
The 2nd most fun shot to hit on the playfield, I think it is criminally underutilized. Why not use it as a SJP shot? Or a valid goal shot in A mission mode (as long as it's not the last shot). I dunno, just use it for something else other than just to start a mission mode, please!

-------Pops-------
The pops levels mean nothing to me; the scoring just doesn't make a meaningful dent in the game currently.....Unless there's something I'm missing, haha. Give some better meaning to the pops levels, give me a REASON to want to keep my ball in the pops during gameplay. Maybe tie them into a side mission? *shrug*

-------Trek Lanes-------
They increase the spinner level, which is okay I guess. They can make a Super Spinner shot worth 125k+ a spin rather than 110k and such. But again, the benefit of completing the lanes doesn't really make me go out of the way to make sure I keep completing them. I'm not hyper aware of keeping the lanes completed like I do on ACDC or XM, where lane completions mean a lot to the game play. I'd like to see them have greater impact for scoring or gameplay.

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Overall, this game just needs nuance, side goals and a little focus to keep players of all skill levels coming back for more and more, rather than having a great couple of fun games and then moving on due to the repetition.

Seeing as how I wrote a goddamn novel, I applaud anyone sphere who was able to suffer through my longwindedness, lol. You deserve a medal!!

Having said all this, I'm sure Steve, Tanio and the rest of the "crew" have some great stuff up their sleeve and hopefully will address a lot of this stuff in later update(s) with some more cool ideas that none of us even considered

I hope someone from Stern reads this stuff?
Thanks Eskay & Rcade

Agreed!

I love everything about ST with the exception of the level one missions. They need... .... ... Something.

We definitely differ in opinion for Enterprise Amok. I really wouldn't qualify it as "badass", it has a great opening animation, but the mode is all text after with no call outs. The gameplay for it currently is interesting, but is overlong and "lifeless". Hit a shot to lock that shot in for that "level" to add 200k a shot to the SJP, then get the necessary # of switch hits to move on to the next "level", get past the 4th...or maybe 5th level to light that SJP for the accumulated amount. With over 250 switch hits for the later levels, it's just too much of the same for me and doesn't give me an "experience" that would make me forgive the "shallow" rule set for the mode. As stated above; if they tighten it up a bit and make the experience more immersive with the callouts and dots, then it would be a great mode.

And I personally like EA where it is: level two wizard. If ST had some side goals/modes to go for, it wouldnt feel so tedious to get to the 2nd tier wizard and beyond. I think it would also help if all each tier followed the same "laws" like I theorized about above. I hate the confusion of whether or not a certain level 2 or 3 mode is timed or not.

Let's say that EA is qualified after attaining 2 level 3 modes, as you suggested, though. It would work if the game kept track of progress in EA throughout the game, so basically you'd have 3 chances to complete EA. Every two level 3 modes start it, and the progress picks up wherever you may have left off. If you reach the end of the mode with "chances" to spare, the next time(s) you initiate EA you would go directly into victory laps? And if you complete all level three missions; you play EA first, and then roll into 5YM?

I knew full well what I was getting into . What can I say; I'm a glutton for pain and adversity.....I think XM gave me a fetish for riding the roller coaster of early code and watch it blossom into something awesome . Besides, if the code was already great and complete, there'd by nothing for me to bitch and moan and wax philosophical about

You know what I'd love to see? This is sort of an aside, but your settings made me think of it. User storable profiles, sort of like Director's Cut. 9 slots say, where I could store a particular set of settings in memory. Slot 1: SKB Settings. Then you could store and flip between different ideas. Anyways ...

I think you guys are nailing the issues, what I would add isn't so much 'rules' code, but the audio and feedback. Like this comment:

I feel that way about the whole game. Like for instance, this is a game that's entirely based around making combos, and yet, if you don't happen to catch the text on the DMD (and if you're playing fast and hard how would you) you really have no feedback when you're rocking the combos. It's just shoot lit shot, oh, that one has red under it, shoot that one too, okay, shoot that shot, and there's nothing that feels like you're nailing it. Make it, miss it, no difference.

When you're fighting Vengeance for example, I love that the tone you get after every hit rises. You feel like you're building up something every time you nail it. I want the rest of the game to give you that same feeling.

On the flip side, there's just too much damn audio for the level one modes. It's too easy to get sick to death of hearing Kirk talk about running through the jungle wearing a disguise. That's not even touching the "they're right behind you Captain, run!" line.

I'm hopeful that bringing in Karl Urban is going to solve a lot of this.

I don't recall which ones off hand, but I know some of the timers affect both level 1 and level 2, so it's good for a shorter level 1 but more of a pain for level 2 to keep hitting mode start.

SKB is right ... I read through the long code thread last night and couldn't agree more.

I don't own a STLE but have played it enough to know the rules are basic at best.

The modes need variety. Xmen comes to mind of the later Sterns, plenty of modes but none are the same. Even Transformers rules are better.

The modes need to mix it up ...

One mode - Roving shots.

One mode - Left side of PF with Warp ramp for extra damage or multiplier

One mode - Right side of PF. Mission hole for extra damage or multiplier. Or away team.

One mode - focus on the ship and the centre of the PF.

At present, a decent player can just start modes and backhand the left ramp all day. That's pretty boring.

The LEDs sure look pretty though.

rd.

Nailed it. This is the issue. The modes are currently all the same.

Hate to say it, but my NASCAR has better rules than STLE right now, because it at least does exactly the type of thing that you mention above...and more.

Their bookkeeper is gigging right now

I really think at least some of the grind and chopping wood comments aren't about the shots at all (though they really do need to make the modes feel different) it's that you just get sick to death of the same audio, which basically plays no matter how you're doing. There's no feedback, the sounds just play automatically really, so every level 1 mode feels like the last one you played, and the one before that. Level 2 doesn't do that. Switch up the audio, make the callouts and sound effects respond to the way you're shooting, and even without changing the core rules I think level 1 will play a lot better.

Try playing Tron with the sound off, that stuff really matters!

Agree re feedback on combos - without hearing a callout or a sound most of the time I don't know I am doing it.

Yeah, I made this call the first time I played it.

All the audio is the same. You want different stuff happening. I'm sure the Urban voices will help out here.

Go play LOTR and turn off the sound ... The experience is halved. Or quartered. A quality sound package makes such a big difference to pinball.

rd.

And with 18 modes there needs to be more rewards or side quests if you do 3 deep or something. Now you complete 3 deep and nothing happens. Need rewards

Must disagree on this.

There's maybe one or two modes that you can get repeated left ramp hits with valid shots, and you'll get shit point at that, and after 5 left ramps in one of those modes, it'll light the right side shots. All other modes will switch off the left ramp as a valid shot after one or 2 hits.

Level one Kilngon Battle you can alternate ramps ad infinitum, but almost all the other modes if you make a left ramp--> right ramp combo the left ramp won't be lit again and you'll have to combo into the left orbit before the left ramp will light again. Unless you don't make any shots for 10 seconds, then all the shots reset.

Not *nothing*, you get a 2x multiplier for the shot associated with that mode. It's not worth the trouble of all the hassle of getting there, so yes, It does need more. But to say that nothing happens when you go three deep is false.

Ok. Let's say "hit ramps all day" instead then

rd.

Ok didn't know that. Guess it was so underwhelming it slipped me by!

And the reason for threads like these is hopefully to get a code update that makes STLE a keeper!

Or the orbits and the spinner and the vuk or flipper away team shot or the vengeance, or the various standup banks. It's really not as bad as you're saying at all, it just needs some variety, adjustments, and incentives. All very fixable in code.

Star Trek now is better than Metallica was before 1.5 IMHO. There's really no reason why it won't end up a stellar game, the ingredients are all there. Just have to see how it bakes up still.

Disagree.

Lyman vs. no Lyman.

Absolutely correct. It may seem I'm being hyper critical, but in fact I still enjoy the game and see the potential in it. I felt the same way with XM and, in my opinion, was rewarded with great code and a great game in the end. ST is already heads and shoulders above where XM was at the same time during this time in its release period, so I would expect nothing but for it to get better.

And hey, it feels GREAT to vent! :p

Disagree.

Shrug. I could have bought Metallica at any point. Deals on Pros and Prems even. I had no interest before the new code. Now I want one. No regrets, except that I couldn't pick up that sweet Refinery edition one the other day!

Lyman vs. no Lyman.

Lyman is the effing man, but that doesn't mean no one else can program pinball rules, or that what he did with Metallica before 1.5 was anything special, because it wasn't. Obviously you give that man enough time to work and he can make a machine sing.

You want to trade yours, you're not happy with it, no worries. I hope the code gets great enough that you want it back.

Some fantastic ideas but too late. Lots of praise based on early code and they sold them all. No reason to go back and change the code now

Forget the thread title, this isn't about the LEs, it's about a game still in production they'd love to sell a lot more of.

Karl urban update is coming. I'm sure Steve will push for ruleset alterations, as he wants to be proud of his 'babies' either all sold or not. Besides, premiums are still being built, right?

Me too! Pin has so much damn potential.

Difference here is that when I had MET, I knew I could have complete faith that Lyman would finish it and the code would be really good. Sorry, but nobody else at Stern has ever given me that confidence, which is why I am willing to trade STLE for a pin that I really want back in my lineup (and have for quite awhile now): IM. I just wish that I could remember who did the code on that pin.

I said long before the 1.5 code for MET dropped that I thought the code on MET was better than ST, even with all the missing crap on MET. Just my opinion, and I can see the opposite side of that argument. After all, ST seemed to be mostly "complete" whereas MET obviously wasn't. But there's definitely something missing from the pin with the more "complete" code, and I really wish that wasn't the case.

Simply put, I would much rather have something back in my lineup that I know I love instead of waiting....and *hoping*...that the next code update fixes the flat nature of the current ruleset.

I love the way ST shoots and plays. Love the theme. If the code knocks it out of the park, I can always pick up another down the road. Even if it's a lowly Premium version.

I can't really argue with that. But I'm hoping that the team in place for Star Trek is going to deliver. I feel confident that Stern gets the code message, I believe that the Karl Urban announcement is a sign of how serious they are about this game, and I have faith that Ritchie won't let his game be anything other than great, and will stay involved in making it happen.

No question that no one has Lyman's dedication. I knew for a fact that new Met code was coming when Lisa was selling her Premium cheap, but what I didn't realize was that he would make the Premium lighting so kick ass that I'd get over my issues with the hammer. I was waiting for a deal on a Pro to pop up before the code dropped. Now a Pro isn't gonna cut it. Not an issue of faith, more that he was still capable of surprising.

Heh. Tell you what, I love the Premium armor, the red is bad ass in person. And I'm working on a solution for anyone who likes the Enterprise more than actor headshots.

Probably not, but I'll give it a shot.

If you play with no strategy, it can feel that way. If you use strategy, it's a lot more fun.

Yes, there is. Besides deciding what order to finish modes, you also need to consider when you should play level 2 modes, when you should lock balls, when you should combo a shot, when you should start multiballs, when you should start super modes and when you should stack all those things. If you're not considering all of those things, I can see how it might seem like chopping wood.

Shooting the orbits repeatedly means no combos. As far as flow goes, how many orbits you think you can hit in a row? This is a flow and combo game. If you want to suggest changes, please keep this in mind. Don't kill the flow or combos.

Above you said the rules were boring. Chopping wood. Now you say you want all the rules the same? Can't have it both ways.

You do realize that if you make that SJP shot a combo, it doubles it to 7M?

No offense, but it sounds to me like you need to play the game more. You made no mention at all about combos doubling shot values and almost no mention of the super modes. Those both play a huge part in the game. Rather than rewriting the rules to something you like more, figure out how you can get the biggest scores from what's there. There's plenty there already, if you put some thought into it.

Yep. Me too.

Wait. You want voice calls and video for combos on ST (which would clobber most every other voice call or video because combos are so prevalent), yet you feel you're qualified to judge Lyman's work? That's hilarious.

You caught me, I'm not worthy. I prostrate at the temple of The Lyman, and beg for the pinball gods to forgive me for having passed judgement on The Lyman for being awesome.

Hear my plea o pinball gods, for the phish had judged me unworthy of the praise that I bring!

Forgive me for making vague implications that the phish found unpleasant to his eyes to read!

There are probably some movies playing tonight, Aurich. Somewhere far away from the computer

Think I'll go to one, too.

Oh hell no unless you are just judging the games for how they flowed. S&D stacked with Fuel Stacked with coffin/Snake blows away anything that ST has to offer. Hell S&D stacked with sparky is better then anything currently on ST. The only strategy was trying to figure out what two 3 in a rows to complete before going into MB and then Just trying to combo jackpots. That about sums up the strategy currently in ST. Metallica with it's stacking and multipliers was more fun even pre 1.5 code.

Eh, Metallica just wasn't anything special to me before. Like I said, now I want one, I Believe.™ But prior code? Didn't do it for me.

With the statements you've made in this thread, I assume you played the software enough to get a good feel for it. Care to share your strategy?

The layout requires more precise shot making as the shots are much tighter and not nearly as easy to hit as ST. The preliminary code was there In that there was definetly certain things you needed to stack in order to have huge games. ST just requires you to combo shots In order to increase scoring. Get good at a few combos and you will get good scores.

Not really, no, I don't particularly feel the need to justify my opinion to you. I didn't like it enough to buy it. Now I've played the new code and I've changed my mind, and would like one. Furthermore, I've changed my tune about the Pro being the way to go, and want a Premium now because the new lighting is worth it to me. I hope more people feel like me and Stern sees a nice sales bump and realizes that Lyman's coding is worth money.

I want Star Trek to get better. But I liked it enough to buy it. I liked it enough to want to make a new translite for it, which I enjoy doing a lot more when it's a machine I own, and thus a personal project.

Thus to me Star Trek now > old Metallica. I put my money where my mouth is.

I feel like we're arguing over what's fun, and that's pointless, it's too subjective. Old Metallica just wasn't fun enough to me. Maybe I didn't get it, I don't really care, I played it and thought "I'm not ready to spend a ton of money on this". Like I said, I knew the new Lyman code was coming, heck if a deal on a Pro popped up I would have bought it on faith. Now I'm just glad that that didn't happen because I'm a Premium convert. And the new code has me going "want". I love the code changes, but I also love the new animations, I love the lighting changes (hence the Pro skip) and to me personally as a player that stuff matters too. They even made the lame bad callouts a little better. Thankfully.

Okay, I'll take the debate bait . All in good fun!

I do play with strategy. And in aver said the game wasn't fun. I have an absolute BLAST for the first 2 or 3 times I play it, then the mode fatigue sets in and I have to move on. Whereas I can play XM, for instance, until my eyeballs bleed because it keeps me interested and I'm always having to make decisions.

Since I'm accused of not knowing and not playing with strategy in this game; I'll layout my how I approach the modes and how I play:
Currently the most efficient path for points is KM Multiball, so that's my first goal.

-I start off with Space Jump and my main goal is to get Vengeance battle ready. Combo ramps to Vengance and try to keep it going until the mode ends, and if all goes well, by the time it's over, Vengeance battle is ready.

-start Prime Directive and immediately start Vengeance Battle 1. Frequently during Prime Directive the Vengeance shot will be a mode shot, so during the Multiball I hit the ramp combo to vengeance again to get the double SJP, as well as the increased points for the mode.

-Move onto Nero and get at least one ball lock during that. Combo it up and finish the mode.

-Move onto Destroy the Drill. More of the same.

-Move onto Save the Enterprise. More of the same, try to get the 2nd ball locked.

-complete STE and gain the dual Captain's chair bonuses. Ramps and spinner at super. Move into Klingon Battle. At the start of Klingon Battle, get the third ball lock for Klingon Multiball and get that going. With super ramps and super spinner, this mode goes gang busters. With any luck KB will complete while still in Multiball and activate the Super pops for added points, and with even MORE luck hit the SJP.

-start KM Multiball and go nuts.

-after KM is over, things open up a bit. I prefer to go straight for completing Nero. Level two Nero has no timer, but takes 8 shots, I believe. Level 3 Nero you can complete by repeatedly back handing the left ramp if you wait for the strobing shot to validate it. Nero is the easiest mode for me to top out. Now with Nero completed, I get the 2x bonus for the left orbit. During this time I try to get Klingon Multiball on deck so that I can activate it after I complete Nero.

- Start Save the Enterprise 2 and go to top it off. I usually have pretty good luck finishing all three tiers of STE. During one of the two tiers, I start Klingon MB ASAP and start working that left orbit for the 2x multiplier.

- if I get past the three STE, then I try to complete the rest of the level 2 modes, but this time I just cash in the row bonuses as soon as I can, rather than trying to get two at once. Usually my game ends by that point and I don't reach Enterprise Amok.

I know the strategy of the game. I know the value of the shots and the importance of combos. My issues have nothing to do with that, it has to do with the content of the modes themselves. They play too similarly. I chose not to mention the fact that combos add bonuses to combo'd mode shots because I have no issue with that, that's awesome. This was a thread asked to critique stuff that we would like to see changed to make that game "better".

I do consider all of those things, quite intensely (see above), and it still feels like chopping wood after the third time in a row playing. The first couple games are AWESOME, but then the fatigue sets in. ST is great in short bursts, but I think it's better than that, it should be a game that should constantly give me a case of the "one more game"s.

Correct, which is why I would never actually play it that way. Players COULD play it that way, but if they aren't comboing via a ramp shot to the orbit, then they're leaving a lot of points on the table. The combo bonus is active as long as it's a part of a combo, doesn't mean the previous shot has to be a valid shot. So yes, you could have a mode that was just the orbits as valid shots, but the comboing would still make it interesting.

Missed the point of my critique entirely. When I was talking about the tier "laws" I was speaking solely about whether or not all modes on a given tier are timed or not and whether progress is saved or not. The CONTENT of the modes as far as the shots to shoot for and the shot rules would all be different. Just the base time and progression save "rules" would be the same, which has nothing at all to do with the chopping wood feeling I get. The chopping wood feeling comes from the similar mode rules and shot goals, not at all associated with whether or not they are timed. My suggestion on each individual tier following the same time and progression "laws" was suggestion merely to make it less confusing for novice players that might be confused when they play one level 2 mode and see that it times out, yet they play another level 2 mode and then there is no timer at all. I was just trying to be a player's advocate on that point. Again, my chopping wood issues come from the mode content for valid shots being too similar.

Thanks for the snide remark, and yes, I knew that, that's why my point still stands. Vengeance Multiball has a single SJP of 5 mil that can be doubled to 10mil, and that Multiball is magnitudes of order easier to beat than Klingon Multiball. It's about risk/reward, here. Going through all the trouble to get the Klingon MB SJP lit (which is pretty challenging) only to get a Combo'd value of 7mill is ludicrous. Compared to the risk/reward of Vengeance Multiball, Klingon Multiball's SJP should be at LEAST the same as VMB, if not more. This was my point about the value being sad comparatively. Keep your shorts on. And no, I don't think I need to play my game more because I would not have posted my opinion on the current state of the pin unless I was confident that I knew everything that this current code has to offer. But I will keep on playing it anyways because it's a great pin with great potential . If you doubt my ability to learn and comprehend game's rules and features before I pontificate about it, please go see the hours and hours of time I out in to my XM rules breakdowns for each of the code releases. I spent many hours already with the glass off testing modes and learning rules and what nuance is there in ST. Anything I didn't mention in my critique/suggestion post were things I had no issue with, I like the row awards, I like the combo shot extra points. Didn't think I needed to state that in order to have a valid opinion, but I guess I did. ----sorry if that paragraph came off as douchey, I get riled up when I'm condescended to, no hard feelings ----

Yes, the potential of this pin is awesome, can't wait to see what they come up with! Its already a good pin, but with some tweaking and moving stuff around it could be an amazing pin! It's because of this potential that I'm so passionate about it, I was/am the same way about XM. I'm one of the biggest advocates for XM you'll find, but I was honest about my opinions of the state(s) of its code and what could have used some tweaking. The difference with my critiques and suggestions than some other people is that I don't feel I'm owed ANYTHING. I'm one customer with an opinion, one of thousands with different opinions, if things aren't implemented the way *I* thought would be cool! I don't care and I move on and keep enjoying the game in its current form. I think you think I don't like ST as much as I do,lol

I'm kinda loving owning a pin that Rcade is into.

If you're into me making what should be a one sentence reply into a novella, you've come to the right dude

Exactly!

I'm sure the next update is going to be awesome whatever they come up with I just wish Karl would hurry up and lay down some speech. Hope they didn't give him his machine already mind you it's going to be weird for him playing a machine and hearing your own voice coming out.

Yeah, that's about what I figured you'd say. You talk trash, but you can't back it up.

I never said that. What I was suggesting is that two weeks might not be enough time for you to completely understand the game and formulate good strategies.

Taking the glass off will teach you the rules a lot faster, but it won't teach you strategy. Writing a good rulesheet involves more than just documenting the rules. Before you write rulesheets or suggest changes in rules, you need to completely understand not just the rules, but also possible strategies. Even with your last reply, I'm not convinced you completely understand the game. I'd play you for money on ST without hesitation.

I read some of your XM rules and got the impression that you took the glass off for that too. If you're strictly writing the rules, that's fine. But to me, a good rulesheet should include strategies and not make the reader think the writer has taken the glass off. Have you read Bowen's TSPP rulesheet?

http://www.ipdb.org/rulesheets/4674/tspp-rulesheet.txt

In my opinion, it's the best written rulesheet ever. You almost feel like you're playing along with him while you're reading it. To be fair, people pay him to write stuff at his day job, so that helps. He's also one of the best players in the world, which helps immensely. Note that he adds spoiler alerts. You're posting about wizard modes here with no warning at all. Believe it or not, most of us would prefer to learn these things on our own by playing the game. Not read about it online. If you're going to post those things, at least warn people beforehand.

I'm not a great player. You're probably a better player than me. The one advantage I have is that I regularly play with and against players better than me. This happens while I'm playing on location, in league and at tournaments. I've learned way more from watching and talking with them than I ever have playing alone or with the glass off. If you have the opportunity to play with players better than you, I highly recommend it. I see you're in Patterson, which I'm guessing isn't exactly a hotbed of pinball players. Do you ever play in the CC league? If you're coming to PAGG or CAX, I'd like to meet you. I'll get you a game on Big Juicy Melons with Rick Stetta. You'll learn more from watching him for 10 minutes than most players learn their whole life. Guaranteed.