(Topic ID: 132132)

Making Homemade Pinball Machine: Need Help With Flippers

By skyler1125

8 years ago


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  • Latest reply 8 years ago by zacaj
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    #1 8 years ago

    After searching the net for a few weeks looking for some advice and tips for building a pinball machine, I found a few helpful sites but nothing to answer some lingering questions. Then I stumbled across this pinball site and thought it would be the perfect place to ask some questions. So yes, I am attempting to build a custom homemade pinball machine. I've done extensive research for over 3 months now and feel confident to get started. This is the breadth of my knowledge in the particular disciplines necessary for this build, Mechanics/Carpeting: Very Good, Electronics: Good but can use improvement, Programming: Never Tried Before (But have researched and I'm ready to give it a try). I've always been fascinated by pinball and wanted to own a machine but could never afford a pin. I realize that building a custom game will certainly be costly, but hopefully not as much as a new game. I've ordered various (so far only essential) parts for my machine from a few sites like www.marcospecialties.com and www.pinballlife.com. These include the flipper assemblies, slingshot assemblies, rubber set, plunger, pinballs (I only had small magnetix balls that were grossly undersized), return lanes and a few minor parts thus far. I'm going to use an Arduino Mega 2560 controller to control the game and most likely use a 30-40V power supply from TDK Lambda for powering the solenoids (is this too much/too little voltage?) I recieved the flipper assemblies today in the mail and after opening them up i have a few questions.

    I realized that I ordered a pair of Fliptronic flipper assemblies, meaning the EOS switch is normally open (NO) with no capacitor. I originally planned on using a set of non-fliptronic assemblies but now that I have a set of fliptronics, I might as well utilize them. My plan is to to have the cabinet flipper button act as a switch (in part of a switch matrix) that the Arduino will read via shift (input) registers. When the flipper button is closed, the controller will then use a shift (output) register to send a +5V supply to the gate of a MOSFET. The drain and source of the MOSFET will be connected to my solenoid power supply and will energize the flipper (high power coil). Here lyes my first question:

    1) How can I utilize the EOS switch to switch from high (kick) power to lower (hold) power?

    The coil that I'm using is a FL-11629. It has three terminals (fliptronics). The terminals are, from right to left, Secondary Coil, Primary Coil, Common (for both coils).

    2) What are the power/voltage/resistance ratings of a FL-11629? Marco Specialities has some information on them but they have so many different coil strengths that I don't know which one to draw information from to apply to my coil (ordered from pinballlife.com).

    3) This ties into question 1, do I even need the EOS switch in my circuit? As in, is there a way to use a timer from the Arduino to switch from the high power coil to the low power coil?

    4) Do I need two separate voltage supplies for the coils? For example do I need 30-40V for the high power coil and something less for the low power coil? Or, can i supply both with 30-40V given that the resistance of the low power coil is so much higher?

    5) What are your suggestions? Is there a better way to control the flippers?

    Thanks in advanced for your replies, below are some pictures of my assembly.

    photo 4.JPGphoto 4.JPGphoto 3-1.JPGphoto 3-1.JPGphoto 2-1.JPGphoto 2-1.JPGphoto 1-2.JPGphoto 1-2.JPG

    #2 8 years ago

    Here are my thoughts to your questions:

    1) If your EoS switch is Normally Open, you can apply the voltage across the hold winding when you see a closed/shorted EoS and shut off the voltage to the power winding via the MOSFET method you described above.

    2) FL-11629 coil power winding resistance is 4 Ohms and the hold winding resistance is 132 Ohms. Looks like on the Williams WPC games they used 50V for the power winding voltage and 18V for the hold winding voltage (http://www.pinballmedic.net/coil_chart.html)

    3) I would not use a timer, but rather look at the flipper button & EoS switches to know when to activate and deactivate power to each winding on the flipper coils. If you tried to use a timer, what would happen if the user pressed and released the button in rapid succession? Your timers would either have to be reset and you wouldn't know when to switch to the hold winding vs. power winding...keep it simple since complicating it doesn't really buy you anything.

    4) You can use two separate voltage rails as Williams did. If you crunch the numbers, it would save you ~167mA. V=IR (40V/132Ohms = 303mA vs. let's say 18v/132Ohms = 136mA). I would be more concerned about using a Power Supply with only 30-40V. You may find this doesn't have the power that you are looking for. Personally, I like strong flippers.

    5) I am no expert by any means, but it would be cool to take the microcontroller out of the loop entirely and just have the circuit control the power switching from the power winding to the hold winding via the flipper button and EoS combination. I'd have to look more into it, but I would imagine this has been done. Take a look at the manuals for the WPC games and others to see how the circuits controlled the flipper coils. You can grab these off of ipdb.org.

    Good Luck!

    #3 8 years ago

    Take a look at pinballcontrollers.com
    Fast pinball
    Mission pinball framework

    #4 8 years ago

    good call, just read through this: http://pinballcontrollers.com/wiki/Controlling_Flippers and I'm swaying back to being software controlled for the benefits listed.

    Good stuff!

    #5 8 years ago

    I'm using the open pinball project's open source hardware to drive flippers, pop bumpers and kick out holes for an early 80s playfield I have using 3 computer PSUs giving 36v to the flippers and it works great.

    Of course the play field doesn't have any ramps or anything that would require stronger flipper power.

    #6 8 years ago

    Thank you for all of the information and links, very helpful. Given that I'm trying to get the most out of everything (trying not to spend a lot of money of various power supplies), I'll use the same voltage for both flipper coils. I'll utilize the EOS switch instead of using a timer for the reasons Ferros stated. But I have a concern with the high power coil. Say I use 40V for the high power coil. Since it has a resistance of 4 ohms, wouldn't it draw 10 amps of current? Most of the power supplies I'm thinking of using are not rated for more than 5 or 6 amps...and what if two coils were fired at the same time? How is it possible to supply 40V to high power coil without surpassing the current amount of the power source? How do other pinball machines accomplish this?

    #7 8 years ago

    You will need a power supply with a very tasty reserve of current availability. It won't be enough to have a switching supply "rated at XX amps" - those ratings are maximum continuous NOT surge as you will experience with a pinball. Switching supplies used as you propose are very likely to either shut down or explode.

    Forget switching supplies - they are not suitable for your application unless you do additional things (as with the SPIKE system).

    Traditionally, flipper coils use the same voltage supply for both windings - a high surge of current is drawn to pull in the flipper and then a much lower hold current is needed to hold the flipper in the actuated position. The exact voltage is less important than the current (amps) availability.

    #8 8 years ago

    Any suggestions for a suitable power supply/company?

    #9 8 years ago

    Just re-visited this page https://howtobuildapinballmachine.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/control-electronics-power-supplies/#comments which details how someone used a 36V 4.3A power supply to power the flipper coils. In the comments people had the same concern as I did: that the power supply did not have the required current to power the coil, as the coil would draw well over 4.3A. However, the designer "space8" had this to say:

    "The coil is a giant inductor, so V=L*di/dt will dominate the analysis…

    When the Flipper is activated, there is a voltage being generated across the coil that is resisting the change in current, so the current is actually ramping up, not a step change. The action is fast enough that by the time the Flipper reaches full stroke, the current has not exceeded the limit of the power supply. At this point, the EOS switch kicks in, and the “Hold” coil (high resistance, low current) is placed in series with the power coil.

    The other up-side of using a 4A max power supply is that you’re limited to 4A… Way more than you realistically need."

    The designer said he/she has made 4 custom pinball machines with this power supply and setup so I feel safe using something similar. Just looking for some extra confirmation that this information seems reasonable and safe.

    #10 8 years ago
    Quoted from skyler1125:

    Any suggestions for a suitable power supply/company?

    I use the Antek one from pinballcontrollers. then i added a 6v (for logic) and 12V switch power supply. i personally don't like using ATX supplies.

    #11 8 years ago

    Just my 0.02 but definitely try controlling the flippers from software first, I had a ton of problems with voltage surges from having high voltages across contacts. If your CPU isn't fast enough to do it without lag, you're going to want a faster CPU anyway. I'd also stay away from using shift registers for controlling solenoids, or for low-lag inputs like flipper buttons or pop-bumpers, unless you can find some really fast shift registers. the Mega's got 56 IOs, save the shift registers for non-momentary inputs and lights

    #12 8 years ago
    Quoted from goldiewag:

    I'm using the open pinball project's open source hardware to drive flippers

    Ha! you're one of the other 2 users

    My project:
    http://homebrewpinball.blogspot.com/2015/01/fets-happen.html

    I can't wait to see video of Hugh's presentation
    http://www.pintasticnewengland.com/speakers.html

    #13 8 years ago

    switching power supplies are indeed fine to use. I'm using a meanwell 48v psu for my skyrim pin. DONT_ use cheapo chinese switchers. meanwell is a good brand and work fine. I have not looked at lambda tdk switchers in a while. Lambda used to make fantastic quality big iron bench power supplies way back

    you will need to check that your mosfets are logic level and that if you drive them via shift registers that the shiftregs can supply enough power per pin to the mosfet, something like IRL520 or IRL530.

    #14 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    switching power supplies are indeed fine to use. I'm using a meanwell 48v psu for my skyrim pin. DONT_ use cheapo chinese switchers. meanwell is a good brand and work fine. I have not looked at lambda tdk switchers in a while. Lambda used to make fantastic quality big iron bench power supplies way back
    you will need to check that your mosfets are logic level and that if you drive them via shift registers that the shiftregs can supply enough power per pin to the mosfet, something like IRL520 or IRL530.

    Meanwell is a Taiwanese company and the majority of their products are made in China, admittedly in their own factory, but in mainland China nevertheless. Taiwan, by the way, is R.O.C. (Republic of China)

    Why do so many people try and pretend they are not buying Chinese stuff when it can't be avoided?

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    You will need a power supply with a very tasty reserve of current availability. It won't be enough to have a switching supply "rated at XX amps" - those ratings are maximum continuous NOT surge as you will experience with a pinball. Switching supplies used as you propose are very likely to either shut down or explode.
    Forget switching supplies - they are not suitable for your application unless you do additional things (as with the SPIKE system).
    Traditionally, flipper coils use the same voltage supply for both windings - a high surge of current is drawn to pull in the flipper and then a much lower hold current is needed to hold the flipper in the actuated position. The exact voltage is less important than the current (amps) availability.

    ^ Bingo! ^
    Exactly what he said!

    For coils - don't use a switcher, they can provide a high, relatively constant current but not intended for rapid, extreme current changes like you will find in a coil circuit. Get yourself a simple transformer and rectifier. In the long run, it will be cheaper and far more reliable than using a switching regulator and will quickly respond to high current spikes. Get a big, beefy transformer well in excess of any current you *think* you'll need - these can pack a good punch to keep things flipping quickly.

    #16 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Meanwell is a Taiwanese company and the majority of their products are made in China, admittedly in their own factory, but in mainland China nevertheless. Taiwan, by the way, is R.O.C. (Republic of China)

    Meanwell stuff might well be made in china, but is not actually Chinese, but its a well regarded name brand using quality components vs the no name chinese switching junk that is made in China, hence my 'dont use cheapo chinese switchers' which makes meanwell niether a) cheap or b) a chinese switcher.

    Thanks for schooling me on the whole Taiwain is actually the Republic of China, of course, as an Australian growing up in a Chinese neighborhood of Melbourne, I guess I just had no idea of all the different south east asian countries that existed at all. None what so ever. Who would have thought there was a whole big world out there?

    Quoted from Homepin:

    Why do so many people try and pretend they are not buying Chinese stuff when it can't be avoided

    There is a huge difference in buying something made in China from a company that uses legit name brand quality parts and get proper safety and testing certifications vs something from a nonname factory in China that uses counterfit caps, reclaimed + recycled parts and other low quality non qc'd parts and dont bother getting their products certified.

    hell you guys have a factory over there. maybe you should pop down to Shenzen and play spot the counterfit ic's for amusement.

    #17 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    Meanwell stuff might well be made in china, but is not actually Chinese, but its a well regarded name brand using quality components vs the no name chinese switching junk that is made in China, hence my 'dont use cheapo chinese switchers' which makes meanwell niether a) cheap or b) a chinese switcher.
    Thanks for schooling me on the whole Taiwain is actually the Republic of China, of course, as an Australian growing up in a Chinese neighborhood of Melbourne, I guess I just had no idea of all the different south east asian countries that existed at all. None what so ever. Who would have thought there was a whole big world out there?

    There is a huge difference in buying something made in China from a company that uses legit name brand quality parts and get proper safety and testing certifications vs something from a nonname factory in China that uses counterfit caps, reclaimed + recycled parts and other low quality non qc'd parts and dont bother getting their products certified.
    hell you guys have a factory over there. maybe you should pop down to Shenzen and play spot the counterfit ic's for amusement.

    My factory 'is' in Shenzhen and I live here - I know all too well EXACTLY what and how things are done here. There are literally thousands of very high quality switching supply manufacturers here and we use a couple of them with great success. To make a blanket statement that all Chinese switchers are no good is simply incorrect.

    Maybe if you only want to pay $3~5 each you will get what you pay for?

    Meanwell is Chinese no matter which way you want to try and argue about it.

    #18 8 years ago
    Quoted from G-P-E:

    For coils - don't use a switcher, they can provide a high, relatively constant current but not intended for rapid, extreme current changes like you will find in a coil circuit. Get yourself a simple transformer and rectifier. In the long run, it will be cheaper and far more reliable than using a switching regulator and will quickly respond to high current spikes. Get a big, beefy transformer well in excess of any current you *think* you'll need - these can pack a good punch to keep things flipping quickly.

    quick, better call Gary Stern and tell him his Spike system should not be using a 48VDC switcher since its a bad idea.

    hey, its funny, I just PWM'd two flippers with my switcher. something must be wrong, it appeared to work.. and its been working for the last two and a half years!

    #19 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    My factory 'is' in Shenzhen and I live here - I know all too well EXACTLY what and how things are done here. There are literally thousands of very high quality switching supply manufacturers here and we use a couple of them with great success. To make a blanket statement that all Chinese switchers are no good is simply incorrect.
    Maybe if you only want to pay $3~5 each you will get what you pay for?
    Meanwell is Chinese no matter which way you want to try and argue about it.

    In any case let's not derail the OP's request about a power supply for his homemade machine. My advice (backed by Ed) is to get a chunky power transformer, bridge rectifier and a chunky Chinese capacitor and he will find that to be super reliable.

    #20 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    quick, better call Gary Stern and tell him his Spike system should not be using a 48VDC switcher since its a bad idea.
    hey, its funny, I just PWM'd two flippers with my switcher. something must be wrong, it appeared to work.. and its been working for the last two and a half years!

    I clarified about the Spike system in my post.

    Well done to you but excuse me if I don't follow your example in my commercial equipment.

    #21 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Maybe if you only want to pay $3~5 each you will get what you pay for?

    hey! do you think they might be those 'cheap chinese switchers' I was telling you about? I think so! we have a winner, folks.

    #22 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    hey! do you think they might be those 'cheap chinese switchers' I was telling you about? I think so! we have a winner, folks.

    You are all so clever here I really don't know why I bother..........

    #23 8 years ago

    c'mon, I'd expect another aussie to understand sarcasm better than you do, we eat it for breakfast. its rare I get to use it, since nobody over here gets it.

    do you plan on doing a reveal on the internals of your system sometime (in another thread?)

    #24 8 years ago
    Quoted from BloodyCactus:

    hey, its funny, I just PWM'd two flippers with my switcher. something must be wrong, it appeared to work.. and its been working for the last two and a half years!

    And you can put a fiat engine into a vette - that will also work and probably be just as funny.

    #25 8 years ago

    For power, I'm basically getting two suggestions. On one side people are telling me that a converter would work. Two people who have built custom pinball machines used a converter for their machines and it works fine for them. On the other side people are warning me to stay away form converters and use some other power supply instead as they cannot handle the surge currents that will take place. I'm really confused on this whole power issue. The main concern was that since the high (kick) power flipper coils have very low resistances (like 4 ohms) that they would draw too much current. But on this DYI pinball website https://howtobuildapinballmachine.wordpress.com the same concern was addressed, saying that Ohms law does not apply since the coil is an inductor and since the flipper takes a very short time to energize into the upward position, the current drawn does not exceed the power supply.

    I was thinking of using an AC to DC converter like this one:http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?x=18&y=17&lang=en&site=us&keywords=285-1815-ND (maybe at a higher voltage). It's not too expensive, has enough voltage and easy to hook up. Again, I'm divided on what I'm reading. Half of you are telling me to stay away from this and others are telling me that this wouldn't be a problem. I want to order a power supply soon but still don't feel safe ordering anything. Can anyone confirm that the information on that DYI pinball website is correct (i.e. it is safe to use an AC to DC power supply)?

    #26 8 years ago

    Just found this website through a help of another pinside member: http://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Here is what they had to say regarding power:

    "In the US and Canada, a single wall plug is restricted to between 15 - 20amps of rated power at 60hz. However, since plugs typically don't exceed 80% of it's rated power, it's actually limited to between 12A-16A. Most pinballs don't draw more than 4 peak amps at any time, so this is not usually an issue unless you have multiple pinball machines running on the same circuit. This should be considered the maximum available power to a game."

    This seems to suggest an AC DC convert supplying around 5 Amps should be adequate

    #27 8 years ago
    Quoted from skyler1125:

    This seems to suggest an AC DC convert supplying around 5 Amps should be adequate

    5amps at 120VAC is giant! On my project, I'm running 7amps at 48VDC and coils can draw more (resetting the power supply), unless you limit them, which is why I have resistors and caps inline from the power supply output.

    #28 8 years ago

    You are confusing the current that can be supplied by the wall outlet with the current that can be supplied at the OUTPUT of your stepdown device REGARDLESS if it is a power transformer or a switching power supply.

    I am not saying that a switching supply won't work, what I am saying is that you would be far better using a mains transformer with a big bridge and a large cap.

    Look at it this way. You are experimenting right? You are very likely going to put the wrong wires in the wrong place at some point and if you do, BANG will go your switching supply. A mains transformer will (in almost every case) suck it up and survive until the mains fuse pops.

    How many transformers in all of the hundreds of thousands of commercial pinball machines out there actually give trouble? Practically NONE!

    How many phone chargers, printers, laptop power supplies etc etc etc have you chucked out because they 'stopped' (all using switching supplies, granted of varying quality and cost)?

    It's your call and maybe it doesn't matter much as you are only doing it for fun.

    It seems pretty clear to me when two engineers who have commented in this thread (one well respected here and the other mostly ignored) both are basically telling you the very same thing and the ones that suggest switching supplies seems to be hobbyists who have obviously had a good run using switching supplies for this purpose BUT that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    #29 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    I am not saying that a switching supply won't work, what I am saying is that you would be far better using a mains transformer with a big bridge and a large cap.

    Nothing really wrong with a switchmode power supply. they tend to be lighter, and more efficient. But yea, it's really hard to kill a linear transformer (unless you short the hell out of it and melt through the coating on the wiring). Of course, so long as you aren't shorting wires (or have a fuse to protect), shouldn't be a problem. I bought my power supply (used for servos) off ebay for $30.

    #30 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    You are confusing the current that can be supplied by the wall outlet with the current that can be supplied at the OUTPUT of your stepdown device REGARDLESS if it is a power transformer or a switching power supply.
    I am not saying that a switching supply won't work, what I am saying is that you would be far better using a mains transformer with a big bridge and a large cap.
    Look at it this way. You are experimenting right? You are very likely going to put the wrong wires in the wrong place at some point and if you do, BANG will go your switching supply. A mains transformer will (in almost every case) suck it up and survive until the mains fuse pops.
    How many Transformers in all of the hundreds of thousands of commercial pinball machines out there actually give trouble? Practically NONE!
    How many phone chargers, printers, laptop power supplies etc etc etc have you chucked out because they 'stopped' (all using switching supplies, granted of varying quality and cost)?
    It's your call and maybe it doesn't matter much as you are only doing it for fun.
    It seems pretty clear to me when two engineers who have commented in this thread (one well respected here and the other mostly ignored) both are basically telling you the very same thing and the ones that suggest switching supplies seems to be hobbyists who have obviously had a good run using switching supplies for this purpose BUT that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    Understood, I'll take this into consideration.

    Another question, is 48V too much for other coils like the slingshots/pop bumpers/drop target reset coils? If so, what is the best way to lower the voltage from the 48V source? Would a strong resistor work? Or is there a better way?

    #31 8 years ago

    Both types of power supplies will work, but Homepin and G-P-E are correct that a transformer setup will be way more forgiving and less technically complex to implement.

    IMO, If you go through with the 48V switching power supply, the way to control any coil regardless of size/resistance/etc.... is to drive them via PWM. That gives you enough control to modify the power for most any situation you are going to run into.

    #32 8 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Both types of power supplies will work, but Homepin and G-P-E are correct that a transformer setup will be way more forgiving and less technically complex to implement.
    IMO, If you go through with the 48V switching power supply, the way to control any coil regardless of size/resistance/etc.... is to drive them via PWM. That gives you enough control to modify the power for most any situation you are going to run into.

    How can PWM be used? I'm using 5v signals to the gates of mosfets which are connected to the 48v source.

    #33 8 years ago

    pwm the digital signal. fire it for 100ms or to eos etc, then duty cycle it on for 35ms off for 200ms.. rinse and repeat etc.

    #34 8 years ago
    Quoted from skyler1125:

    How can PWM be used?

    You let it kick full power for half a second, then use PWM for holding power (so you don't need a separate 12v supply and a separate coil winding). You're pulsing the 48v supply to give equivalent of 12v (sort of like how you pulse LED to dim them). The only drawback is that PWM'ing makes a buzzing noise.

    #35 8 years ago

    If the OP wants to make something just for fun I think there is a lot of "overthinking" going on here with PWM etc etc.

    I would just use a standard "two winding" coil and a standard EOS switch so that the full 48V is switched to the high current coil and then (when the EOS switch opens) the low current coil is switched in series and the full 48V is then applied across both windings.

    This works perfectly well for most EM and SS machines and I can't see why it won't work perfectly well for the OP.

    #36 8 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    If the OP wants to make something just for fun I think there is a lot of "overthinking" going on here with PWM etc etc.
    I would just use a standard "two winding" coil and a standard EOS switch so that the full 48V is switched to the high current coil and then (when the EOS switch opens) the low current coil is switched in series and the full 48V is then applied across both windings.
    This works perfectly well for most EM and SS machines and I can't see why it won't work perfectly well for the OP.

    Yes this is how I will wire the flippers, it's easy and works well. Now for other coils like slingshots, can a voltage regulator be used to lower the power of the coils? Again, I only have one power supply to work with (which is 48V)

    #37 8 years ago

    All the coils will work fine from 48V there is no need to lower the voltage.

    #38 8 years ago

    is this really a viable way to save money on a pinball machine? honest question.

    i think it would take me at least 2 years to build and code a pin.

    #39 8 years ago

    If you get a transformer, it'll probably have multiple taps. The last one I looked at had everything from 5V-30V, I'd assume a 50V transformer would also have some stuff in the middle, in case it turns out you don't want some coil running off 50V.

    Quoted from pezpunk:

    is this really a viable way to save money on a pinball machine? honest question.
    i think it would take me at least 2 years to build and code a pin.

    I just finished my simple one, ended up costing me ~$700 and took two years of nights and weekends, but half of that was me blowing up ICs, etc because I'm clumsy. If I were to build another one, I'd say that the time spent designing the playfield, art, and rules (the fun part!) would be as long as the time spent building it, probably less than a year total.

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