Make people sign liability waiver before pinball event at private?

(Topic ID: 226507)

Make people sign liability waiver before pinball event at private?


By Whysnow

5 months ago



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  • 96 posts
  • 55 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 months ago by Pinrookie
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    There are 96 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 5 months ago

    Is there evidence that waivers have actually protected someone? Can you "sign your rights away"?

    Just because someone signed something doesn't mean they can't sue afterwards. Whether or not they'll win is besides the point, its the pain of actually being sued by someone that people are trying to avoid I'm guessing, and a waiver can't stop that. After that it's all on the insurance.

    #52 5 months ago

    One would think just putting up a warning sign should do the trick.

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    #53 5 months ago

    If your so worried about it don't host. Have someone else do it .have it at the bowling alley or Maria's

    #54 5 months ago
    Quoted from JimRad:

    If your so worried about it don't host. Have someone else do it .have it at the bowling alley or Maria's

    I agree with Jim. If you are not comfortable hosting at home, host at one of your locations. Nothing wrong with that.

    #55 5 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    As far as I know there are no by-laws currently in the madCity Flippers league preventing a host from requiring a waiver.

    And as far as I know, there isn't any by-law that states that if a member does not sign one for a host that they are "unwilling to attend the event" either.

    If you're concerned, that's totally legit. In that case, just pass on hosting and make it easy. Plenty of other public and private collections for any event to be held.

    #56 5 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Them too, but they don't seem as sue happy as many we have here in the good ole US of A.

    Yeah, but they do seem to be the ones who are more likely to go crashing through a screen door.

    #57 5 months ago

    I don’t know about waivers, but I always wear my Life Alert when I play pinball. When I fall I know help is on its way soon. Highly recommend.

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    #58 5 months ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    Yeah, but they do seem to be the ones who are more likely to go crashing through a screen door.

    Believe it or not, that same screen door has been reinforced and is still fully functional today.

    #59 5 months ago

    The only way I would host is with a barn or outbuilding. Even then I would bring in porta-potties.

    I would never let a group of unknown people in my house unless I were able to track everyone all the time.

    Too easy for things to happen or disappear or your wifes panties to go missing or they piss on your floor or toilet seat or spill shit...

    #60 5 months ago
    Quoted from TVP:

    The only way I would host is with a barn or outbuilding. Even then I would bring in porta-potties.
    I would never let a group of unknown people in my house unless I were able to track everyone all the time.
    Too easy for things to happen or disappear or your wifes panties to go missing or they piss on your floor or toilet seat or spill shit...

    My biggest pet peeve about hosting holiday events is people missing the toilet. Yes, many of the attendees are friends & family. I don't forget. "Sure I'll come over and piss on yours, I mean help you move something."

    #61 5 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    I should have them sign a waiver, especially the out of towners, that if they are going to fall thru the screen door, that is on them.

    Once I fell through a screen door and strained myself!

    #62 5 months ago
    Quoted from spfxted:

    Once I fell through a screen door and strained myself!

    Better than a plate glass sliding door and cutting yourself to ribbons.

    11
    #63 5 months ago

    I slipped on a icy walk a few years ago at a buddies house. It was a holiday gathering during an especially cold icy week and broke my elbow. The FIRST thing my insurance company asked was WHERE did it HAPPEN ?
    I told them out at the end of my driveway getting the mail. I wasn’t about to let them harass my buddy and try to make his homeowners insurance pay.
    Unfortunately SHIT HAPPENS!!!

    -4
    #64 5 months ago

    .

    #66 5 months ago
    Quoted from JimRad:

    If your so worried about it don't host. Have someone else do it .have it at the bowling alley or Maria's

    Quoted from TomGWI:

    I agree with Jim. If you are not comfortable hosting at home, host at one of your locations. Nothing wrong with that.

    I am hosting at my home.

    This is just a discussion and a valid one that should be worth discussion by all of us that host any event.
    I would hope that nobody in the community would ever sue a host that invites them into their house for any event but still worth the discussion.

    I definitely learned things, have upped my umbrella, and also feel a bit better after seeing how the WI courts have previously ruled. You just never know, so always good to be prepared.

    #67 5 months ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    And as far as I know, there isn't any by-law that states that if a member does not sign one for a host that they are "unwilling to attend the event" either.
    If you're concerned, that's totally legit. In that case, just pass on hosting and make it easy. Plenty of other public and private collections for any event to be held.

    I am not hosting for Madcity Flippers League this year. All spots were taken before I had the opportunity to grab one.

    I have hosted lots of events in the past, am hosting SCS this year, and also have a few other things I have been thinking of hosting.

    If I decide to do a waiver for a future event (not saying that will happen; again just a discussion) and you dont want to attend, then I can respect your decision. I hope you can also respect mine. I will restate, that i would have zero issue if you or any other pinhead that invites people over requested I sign a waiver for liability (pinball, like anything can have shit happen). I think that is by far your right and I am always just thankful when people open their collections so would think that is a very small request.

    #69 5 months ago

    Unless you have a notary on site to stamp it, I don't think a liability waiver would actually hold up in court. If someone got hurt and sues, they can just say that isn't their signature, and if they're willing to lie about that, I'm sure there is plenty else they'll lie about.

    If you have good insurance, I would think you'll be fine.

    #70 5 months ago

    Here you go Hilton.........in other words don't worry about it unless you are "grossly negligent".

    "Michigan's dram shop law applies only to alcohol vendors -- that means bars, restaurants, shops, and other sellers. The law does not allow an injured person to bring a civil lawsuit against a social host who provides alcohol to someone who goes on to cause an alcohol-related accident.

    For example, suppose that instead of going to Brandon's Bar, Dot goes to a party hosted by her neighbor, Harvey. Harvey provides an open bar and Dot has several drinks. Eventually, Dot heads out onto the back deck to dance. She collides with Petra and both women fall off the deck, suffering injuries.

    Unlike in the bar, here Petra may not file a lawsuit against Harvey for providing the alcohol -- whether or not Dot is a minor. (However, both Petra and Dot may have a premises liability claim against Harvey if they fell because the deck was in an unreasonably dangerous condition.)

    A social host who provides alcohol to a minor in Michigan may, however, face criminal charges. Section 436.1701 of the Michigan Compiled Laws establishes misdemeanor penalties for a person convicted of providing alcohol to a minor under age 21."

    #71 5 months ago

    Just keep all the banana peels off the floor.

    #72 5 months ago
    Quoted from ultimategameroom:

    I slipped on a icy walk a few years ago at a buddies house. It was a holiday gathering during an especially cold icy week and broke my elbow. The FIRST thing my insurance company asked was WHERE did it HAPPEN ?
    I told them out at the end of my driveway getting the mail. I wasn’t about to let them harass my buddy and try to make his homeowners insurance pay.
    Unfortunately SHIT HAPPENS!!!

    So you lied to your own insurance company, possibly committing insurance fraud. That's cool. And a bunch of thumbs up for it no less!

    #73 5 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I am hosting at my home.

    I host pinball events at my house. If I was ever nervous enough to have people sign a waiver, I'd just stop opening my home to people.

    #74 5 months ago

    I’ve thought about opening up my collection to a league, but this thread reminded me of the greedy litigious American culture......my collection will remain behind locked doors for my pleasure only.

    #75 5 months ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    I host pinball events at my house. If I was ever nervous enough to have people sign a waiver, I'd just stop opening my home to people

    But let's say you have kids that are high school age and they throw a party at the house while you're at the cabin. One of their friends slips down the stairs, breaks their neck. Their parents sue you. Your home owners covers 500G but their medical bills are more. You go bankrupt, lose your house and savings.

    Go ahead and stop worrying about most of everything, get an umbrella policy. Now yo can host pinball parties worry free.

    #76 5 months ago

    Sounds like a case for Lionel Hutz

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    #77 5 months ago

    So say I attend said party with my wife and her sister. Her sister and I get loaded off the provided alcohol, and I trip, my pants fall off and I fall onto and into her sister, repeatedly. She ends up pregnant, can I sue for the inevitable child support? Tort law is so complicated.

    #78 5 months ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    Is there evidence that waivers have actually protected someone? Can you "sign your rights away"?

    In very limited circumstances. For example, some states have upheld waivers at gyms. The waiver will protect the gym, if written properly, from injury caused in the ordinary use of equipment. (Pulled a muscle, tire a bicep, had a heart attack). But it will not protect the gym from lawsuit for an injury slipping on a wet floor, or from a defective piece of equipment or a pothole in the parking lot, say. The general rule is you can’t sign away your right to sue for negligence, but there are several exceptions. With enough injury a lawyer will always try and find a way to invalidate any waiver.

    #79 5 months ago

    Get insurance! I recommend having an umbrella policy.

    https://www.nationwide.com/personal/insurance/homeowners/

    #80 5 months ago

    #81 5 months ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    So you lied to your own insurance company, possibly committing insurance fraud. That's cool. And a bunch of thumbs up for it no less!

    I also went down a second time two days later out at the mailbox and didn’t go to the doctor for a week. So there’s no telling when I actually chipped the bone.
    The entire state was covered in ice for two weeks.
    Didn’t even need surgery just let it heal.
    So it wasn’t more than a doctors visit and a follow up.
    Are you of the same mindset of my neighbor whose son broke his hand playing baseball with the other neighborhood 10 yr olds in my others neighbors yard.
    Sons father tried to latch his kids injury claim onto the other neighbors homeowners insurance to pay the medical bills “case his son was injured on his neighbors property”.
    This is in a upper middle class neighborhood by the way.

    #82 5 months ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    One would think just putting up a warning sign should do the trick.[quoted image]

    If you did that the PC people would come out of the wood work.

    #83 5 months ago
    Quoted from Eric_S:

    Unless you have a notary on site to stamp it, I don't think a liability waiver would actually hold up in court. If someone got hurt and sues, they can just say that isn't their signature, and if they're willing to lie about that, I'm sure there is plenty else they'll lie about.
    If you have good insurance, I would think you'll be fine.

    Video them signing it.

    #84 5 months ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    Here you go Hilton.........in other words don't worry about it unless you are "grossly negligent".

    thanks. I live in WI, but seems to be similar to WI law/ cases from what I have found.

    Even found one case where 2 people got drunk together. 1 drove and wrecked the car and the other was injured and sued. The WI supreme court found that the passenger knew the driver had been drinking and choose to get in the car, hence they accepted all risk associated with that decision, including the momentary decisions what caused the poor driving and accident.

    Seems in WI that guests on private property are already assuming all normal risks associated with activity on their property. IN other words if you accept an invite to play pinball at a private residence then you are assuming liability for doing normal stuff in that house. You slip and fall on a carpet then that is on you as the guest.

    Of course, if the owner is negligent they are on the hook (waiver or no waiver makes little difference).

    This brings a follow up question...

    What sort of umbrella are most people getting? How much protection?

    #85 5 months ago

    In my experience 99% of the pinball people I have met and dealt with are 'good people'. You may have that one douche bag that has mental issues and slips on ice and sues, but I really think it is a non issue, especially coming into your home. Life is short-open your doors to fellow pinheads and don't sweat the small stuff.
    I personally am more concerned about getting into a car accident and having someone try and take me for all I am worth. All day long on TV, all you see is car accident lawyers commercial advertising-'Have you been injured in an accident?' now that is bs and a true shame!

    On a side note-not sure if 'BYOB' would potentially limit your liability if someone were to get too intoxicated and drive home drunk and have an accident? If you did not provide or encourage drinking-would that change your potential liability?

    #87 5 months ago
    Quoted from pinmister:

    In my experience 99% of the pinball people I have met and dealt with are 'good people'. You may have that one douche bag that has mental issues and slips on ice and sues, but I really think it is a non issue, especially coming into your home. Life is short-open your doors to fellow pinheads and don't sweat the small stuff.
    I personally am more concerned about getting into a car accident and having someone try and take me for all I am worth. All day long on TV, all you see is car accident lawyers commercial advertising-'Have you been injured in an accident?' now that is bs and a true shame!
    On a side note-not sure if 'BYOB' would potentially limit your liability if someone were to get too intoxicated and drive home drunk and have an accident? If you did not provide or encourage drinking-would that change your potential liability?

    all good points and I agree. Life is too short, but as I age I find myself being more concerned/ questioning these sorts of things. I hate that as one of the things I really enjoy is fixing up games and then sharing them with others.

    In particular, I am really excited to be hosting the SCS this year. Up to now, hosts have always played in the SCS and on their own collection (pros and cons for the host, but no doubt that if I am only focusing on trying to run a good event then that is better for the event and also more "fair" for all the players since I obviously get to play on my games all the time and most of them will never have played my games). I have a collection that includes some rare titles and offers something different than most (mostly early SS on a variety of manufacturer with few DMDs), so I am looking forward to hosting the big competitive stage with quite a few games that people have little experience on. Will be cool to see some of the best in the state competing on these games that in my opinion will really test their core pinball skills (gotta be able to play on all eras and not just Sternaments).

    As for alcohol, I dont have to worry about that. Being the SCS players seems more focused on competition and less on drinking. We wont be serving alcohol. In particular another host had a bad experience with people drinking and driving, so that was a wake up call concerning that. I dont want the risk of even having to worry about that, so easy to just avoid it all together. I am sure not serving alcohol would help if anything ever did happen. We also have a handful of young adults and kids that play competitively but are getting closer to that legal drinking age, so I think it is best to just avoid that possible issue completely by not serving.

    #88 5 months ago

    I once invited the entire Toronto LiveJournal group to my house for a pinball party. About 150 or so people showed up and it was honestly the best party I’ve ever had. In fact I ended up doing a few more times as well.

    I wish people would worry less about liability and other shit.

    #89 5 months ago
    Quoted from chad:

    If you did that the PC people would come out of the wood work.

    And they'd probably give me shit for being a MAC user.

    #90 5 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    What sort of umbrella are most people getting? How much protection?

    We were told that the size of the umbrella should be based on your total net worth.

    #91 5 months ago
    Quoted from JWJr:

    We were told that the size of the umbrella should be based on your total net worth.

    1x, 1.5x, 2x, 5x?

    how much ratio is good?

    It seems an umbrella is not too expensive to add/ up the coverage.

    #92 5 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    1x, 1.5x, 2x, 5x?
    how much ratio is good?
    It seems an umbrella is not too expensive to add/ up the coverage.

    I loathe the insurance industry. I think they are running one of the biggest con games out there. That being said, I am not sure getting a larger umbrella is a great idea, as you are just providing a larger target for people to aim at.

    #93 5 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    1x, 1.5x, 2x, 5x?
    how much ratio is good?
    It seems an umbrella is not too expensive to add/ up the coverage.

    Depends on the risk you want to take. Something like less than 13% of liability related settlements were for 1 million or more. You also need certain amounts of liability coverages on your auto and homeowners policies because these kick in first.

    I have a 1 million policy that costs $173 a year. I got this many years ago when I was an electrical contractor. Not sure I really need it now, but it's cheap.

    #94 5 months ago
    Quoted from Bryan_Kelly:

    Depends on the risk you want to take. Something like less than 13% of liability related settlements were for 1 million or more. You also need certain amounts of liability coverages on your auto and homeowners policies because these kick in first.
    I have a 1 million policy that costs $173 a year. I got this many years ago when I was an electrical contractor. Not sure I really need it now, but it's cheap.

    Thanks Mr. Kelly

    Appreciate the info.

    #95 5 months ago

    I was recommended $1 million coverage for my pool and those things are proven killers so I would think that 1 million would be good for just about anybody.

    #96 5 months ago
    Quoted from NPO:

    The death of common sense and accepting responsibility for our actions is truly terrifying to see unfold on a yearly basis....

    I agreed. I am a property manager. I dealing with all sort of people everyday. All I can say is common sense is not common any more.

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