I love what ya'll are doing. Honestly, I just wish that they would open source the code once the games goes out of production. There are some really talented people in the community that could do some bad a$$ stuff to our games if they could adjust the code themselves.

Ask any STLE or premium owner their thoughts. They are missing some advertised features.

Posted there as well but I'm in for one.

Not a bad idea. Maybe we could donate the funds to a charity of his choice in his name. That could help him out a bit.

No conflict. The next time he's talking at a show, someone just ask in the Q&A session - "What is your favorite charity." Then we donate to it and send him a receipt showing what happened. My team at work did this for me when a loved-one passed away. They knew my favorite charity is the Wounded Warriors Foundation so they took a collection, donated the money and sent me a letter saying what they did and how much was donated.

Or, we could just put it towards our own charity and send him a thank you note for all he does and include that as part of it.

More than one way to skin a cat that wouldn't get anyone in trouble but also show our appreciation towards what they do.

Honestly, that is all I need from Stern. I just want to know it's being worked on and the game hasn't been passed over and the coders are working on another title. Timelines are worthless to me as they are never hit. I just want to know something will come in the future.

Thanks SR for just saying something.

Flash - I'm not as artistic as you but I have an idea for one. How about one with Hulk saying something like - "Hulk is mad. Can't get ball out of saucer. Only if there was a way to keep the "H" down for a couple of seconds." This with a picture of a ball stuck in the hulk saucer. I can get you that picture if you like this idea.

This is one of those fixes that would be simple to make in the code but has been neglected.

Let me know if this doesn't work. So frustrating....

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I got burned by the dates on Sterns site too. I went there a month or so ago and got super excited as I thought new code was launched on a couple of my games. Went to download and realized what happened. Major bummer.

Yeah! I made a contribution. All be it an idea of a code issue but it's cool to see it in action.

What are the chances of those shirts making it to us in time for TPF on 3/27? That's really the only reason I want one is to wear it there on Sat when it's the busiest. Have to be honest that I've contemplated just having a local shop make the shirt but I want to support what you are doing to though.

Did you not read that all profits were going to charity?

I'm also kind of sick of the donate police. People will if they feel it necessary. It's not your place to push it on others. And before you comment on my heart. I donated plenty to cover a couple of years when I contributed to the site and also contributed to buy Robin a pinball machine which I'm sure you weren't part of (transformers).

You seem to keep coming back to this thread over and over to talk about us whining. Kind of hypocritical of you, isn't it?

There is a way to fix that. Just see below.

3 years, maybe, but I prefer to make my donations to charity vs a message board that is housed with a bunch of well off men and women. If pinside goes away it doesn't hurt any of us. If (for instance) the wounded warrior project (my charity of choice) loses funding people are impacted. Seriously though, one could donate $1 and get a little red heart. Means nothing.

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Question, have you ever (even once) complain about the government? They kept several businesses alive. Does that mean we don't have the right to vocalize our concern to try and better the country? I didn't think so. Move along...

Sweet. Buying one now! I was holding off until I could confirm I could get one vs having to do it locally.

"stupid is as stupid does"

TPF at 7pm on Friday. Kind of odd to have such a big speaker on Friday during dinner time but that is when it is for this show.

I have no issues with the MODs taking the links down if they were concerned even though I also think it would have been fine. I'm not a lawyer though so take that with a grain of salt.

What I do find a little odd is the statement that this may have gone to far and could be causing more harm than good after some talks with Stern. Are we saying that they are not going to finish code in spite? If so, that will REALLY help them with sales. If what is being said is they are going to lose money on sales then I also find that ridiculous. Nobody is saying to not buy Sterns. All anyone is saying is to wait until the code is finished or at least perceived as finished in the buyers eyes. The sales still happen assuming code is done. Just means it takes longer to happen depending on how bad the code is at launch.

One thought though - Maybe we shouldn't just be targeting Stern. There are other MFG's out there now with this issue.

P.S. - A way to make your own T-shirt if so desired. http://www.amazon.com/Avery-Personal-Creations-Iron-On-Transfers/dp/B0000C0CIR

PM sent.

Also, for anyone that bought the old design those were CLed. I never got a notice from the company but I went to the site and it shows it was closed. Just a FYI so you can order the new one if you still wanted one.

Can't speak for him, but I haven't. But what I can say is that the software engineers where I work are constantly building new platforms and systems that integrate into a multi billion dollar global company in less time than its taken them to code some games.

Come on Calvin. Let's be honest with ourselves here for a min.

What would you do if DP killed the idea of updates to BOP 2.0 and left it where it is today? 6 missing modes and a handful of bugs. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed as I've seen your frustration, while confident it will get done, in those threads. Granted I share those same feeling with BOP 2.0 but why is this any different?

I'm normally not this blunt but.... You are really talking out of your ass here on this particular portion of the topic.

If the "feature" is on this list (attached) that is still published on Sterns website then it's not a choice to add/fix. Technically I guess it could be a choice but then it would give every Prem/LE owner the right to sue for false advertisement and/or a bait and switch. heck, at this point I'm sure any Prem/LE owner could technically go after them today and easily win a settlement for the above. You can't tell someone there product will include _____ and not provide that without disclosing the fact it wont be there until _____ or ever.

I'll agree that Stern has no requirement to make changes to modes and other things that we find as bugs but to even argue the point that the flasher that are on the feature list don't have to be added is just crazy talk.

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LOL. Saw that. Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

This is great news about it being tested now for ST. Curious about all the other games that need some help though.

Rant on....

Seriously though, and I know I'm late to this part of the topic. Why are we protecting Stern at TPF? Do people really go to TPF because Gary is there? They don't even have a booth at the show which to me shows just how valuable they really aren't at the show. They don't even bring games to the show. I think the wrong group is being looked after here as the collectors are the ones that make the show happen. You could spend millions on bringing in Gary, Jack and all the other builders but without the collectors these shows would never happen. Just seems like spending thousands of dollars to bring in Stern to the show is a complete waste of money and that mentality about protecting them vs the collector community is another major reason why I wont be bring games to this show (main reason below). The show would not be hurt if they don't come but the show is canceled if the collectors bail on bringing games. Someone should rethink whom is important here.

I give an example of how that attitude can impact things. Last year, I bought a game on the floor from Marco at the start of the event and was badgered by the staff when I asked if I could get a slip for the after hours event for game owners. I was denied of that while being talked down to for even making such a ridiculous request:
Me - "Could I get a pass for the after hours event for owners? I just bought the ST from Marco and will be leaving it on the floor for the show."
Them - "Oh, so now that you bought a game here vs bringing one you feel as though you should get a pass?"
Me - "Yes, since I bought it here from a vendor and am keeping it on the floor."
Them - "That's not how it works. Oh by the way, you are not allowed to remove the game till after the shows ends anyways."

I was tempted to pull MY game from the show at that point but left it there as it was the right thing for the PAYING patrons of the show.

I really think that some people lose sight that it's the PAYING CUSTOMERS that keep their business/shows alive.

Anyways, I will be wearing my shirt proudly on Sat at the event. I am not going to harass any Stern employees about it as I know only one of them there would even care about what I have to say (Steve). If anyone asks me about it, I'll tell them about it and give them examples of why I feel this way due to games that I own.

Rant off....

It was in response to Ed's comment about not making Stern uncomfortable at TPF with questions about code and wearing these shirts about the code. Most of my response was directed directly at that comment but as part of my rebutal I was talking about how the collector should be the one valued at shows that rely on collectors machines. I posted that example as it's my only personal experience as a game owner at the show which I felt also showed that the collectors with machines there were not being treated as top priority. I also posted it as reason why I'm not bringing a machine this year as I didn't feel appreciated last year. I was going to bring my fully restored BOP2.0 to show off anyways since most people haven't seen a 2.0 but my PF is MIA at this point. Based off last years experience I didn't feel like taking anything else.

Appreciate it. Risk of harming the show or the vendors relationship with TPF (Marco in this case) didn't seem to out way the reward I was going to get of proving a point.

Wow... A couple of you come in here to bitch and complain about this thread getting to much attention and having nothing but whiners. It goes quite for a couple of days and guess who's posting in the thread saying it's gone quite and bumping it back up to the top. Isn't that exactly what you wanted, for it to go quite? What are YOU whining about now?

It's like a bunch of 2 year olds trying to say "I told you so." because it went quite. If that's the case, ST code is in beta with Keith E beta testing it. It's on location in Chicago for test as well as PAPA. That calls for an I TOLD YOU SO back (just to make the couple of you happy).....

To you... I give your picture back to you.

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It doesn't suck. Just has a couple small bugs in it. Easy fixes so I agree it probably wont get looked at again. If they just fixed the "H" target with the saucer kick out and the thor bug it would be 99% there. Dots for a wizard mode would be the other thing to fix but I'd be pretty happy with the code if the above two were fixed.

It shouldn't be the number of updates that matter it should be the quality of the update. Would be much better to only need one or 2 updates to complete a game.

As for AC/DC - I thought the only update to it was to stop the magnet from swinging the bell with a VIP pass thus killing the Hells Bells exploit? I have mixed opinions on this as using a VIP to get the bell moving was one strategy to get the ball behind the bell in that mode to enter the mini playfield. I do like that they are working on exploits though.

Love it. You should add the same for 5 year mission in ST. All the code talk around that potential update and it sounds like it still has no dots.

There are several home beta testers. They have not advised of 5 year being updated and it's been asked several times and it sounds like it's not included in this update so far.

ST is posted and it says that 5 year mission animations were added

"65. Added - Animations to 5 Year Mission Award."

hell of a big update too. It's a step, fingers crossed more games get the love they deserve now too.

Got my shirt today

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No cards from what I've seen. I am wearing my shirt and have been asked about it a lot. Ironically, the vendors seem to be the most interested.

St code coming out seems to have calmed the storm. A shame as there are many more games out there needing work and if people drop off after one update for a game I doubt progress will be made.

bored waiting for my tournament to start (thus why I'm even on here). Here you go though.

I was told by someone that does a pinball magazine that he took my pic while playing a game and sent it to Gary. He didn't share his response though. We talked (constructively) about it for a couple of mins. Maybe it will show in their magazine.

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TWD talk - I think saying the current code on TWD is decent. The problem with it though is that it's not real intuitive as to what a player needs to do to get some of the modes going. I do think Stern will get the code solid on this game and with good code I think it could be a really fun title. With that said, I still feel that MET is more fun to play. Just feels like you have so much more to do.

All - As much as I love this movement. Over the past couple of weeks I've come to a realizations. The "where's the code Stern" really should be changed to just "Where's the code". That was one thing that I did mention in conversations with people about my shirt at TPF. Stern is obviously the most agregious example of code challenges but I think the idea of this movement expands to other MFG as well. For example - BOP 2.0 is still missing several key features of the code. They are working on it and I'm sure it will come but it's just as incomplete as TWD and Wrestlemania is today. AMH has some bugs in it to. I also think they will get things fixed. This is just a few examples but I really do think that we should incorporate all MFG's into this vs singling out Stern at this point.

P.S. - Anyone else find it a bit amusing that Whoah Nellie has some code tweaks still pending that will be worked on? I just found that a bit amusing that there is a code update needed on a game that is based off an EM machine. Not trying to poke the bear but that made me chuckle a bit when I heard about that. If there was one game that should ship with complete code (across all MGF's) it should be a game based off an EM machine that is trying to mimic an EM.

The thing about avengers is I thought they had code that at least fixed a couple of the bugs but they never released it.

I completely disagree. To me the proof that this movement has helped the situation is the fact that they are addressing the "Where'sthecode" hashtag with there own code hashtags. That tells me that this has gotten their attention which was the purpose of the thread in the first place.

Only chance of that happening was with Whoah Nellie and from what I hear it will get some code updates. An EM based game shipping that still needs updates. Now that is funny...

Actually they haven't. Most of the time (unless it was an in production game) they have nearly always said it was done.

Now they have opened up talk about games out of production. For example - The fact they are even entertaining the idea of Avengers on their FB page is a huge difference to me.

Is it not a fact that Stern has shown recognition of this thread/movement?

Is it not a fact that Stern has been more transparent the last couple of months with updates than they have been for the last couple of years?

Their are facts in both directions. It's just that the facts being presented to us are facts of history. We are talking about the current and future thus why so many of us are feeling positive that some change is being made. Is it not OK for us to feel happy that we feel as though we've made an impact on the industry? This hobby is supposed to be fun so I really don't understand all the hostitily and bitterness towards people that are causing other no harm. It's not like Stern would ever say, "You see that code thread on Pinside? Yup... OK, we're done making games now because they hurt our feelings." Companies pay a lot of money for the free feedback we are handing out here. If we keep level heads and praise them when they should be praised and be negative with them when we should then we can only help them grow a stronger customer base.

Check out that Lionman thread. Now that is amazing it keeps going on and on and on and on.... Just a bunch of people posting "LIONMAN".

I actually like the current rating system here. I would like to see "Score balance/exploits" added though but "Bugs", "Features", etc all fall into my "Fun" category.

If it's missing something but that doesn't take away from the fun the I really don't care. For instance (Flame suit on), the cannon modes in AC/DC. I don't miss them one bit. But missing something like a wizard mode does take away from the Fun I have in the game once I get there.

You're the fing idiot here. He posted it in a reply on social media. This was not a private e-mail. Get a clue...

If he is getting in trouble for this it would be because HE posted it on social media. Not because someone posted a screen shot about it.

I also agree with this. Doubtful that it was him. Could be him but I'm just not sure he would post something like that publicly unless he had plans to leave.

Social media is not proprietary information so try again. If the post is not fake then you are right that Stern would have every right to fire him. That would be stupid on their part but they could very easily do so.

I don't do facebook as I find it stupid. If that screen shot was not factual and was doctored by the person whom posted it then that would be a very dumb and slanderous act. Any actions that occur to Lyman do to that would cause the person whom made it to be liable for damages. I would think someone wouldn't be so stupid to do something like that. If they did, that is on them. I'm basing my opinion based off the information I've been presented. Either way, if it's real or fake, that makes no difference on your comment on calling people idiots for posting it. The only idiot would be the one that made it.

Do you work for Stern? If not, then how do you know that is confidential and proprietary information? There is nothing posted in that post that gives away any trade secrets. It is him saying that they are done with TWD and that he only had 1 year to work on it while ST got 3 years (man hours). That is no different than you calling a company to complain about their product and the customer service agents says, "I'm sorry you are not happy with the product but it is what it is."

Gary also says it all the time they are done with something. Is it confidential and proprietary when he says that? I get you are trying to be smart but you see how that can go both ways?

My reading comprehension is just fine thank you.

Agreed. If you can't finish 3 games a year then maybe they shouldn't be producing 3 games a year.

I'm in the minority on this one, usually am at least, but I'd rather see one finished game a year than 3 unfinished ones. I actually thought this is where the VE would help them out. Less newly developed games to allow for more complete and better games while leaning on the VE income to help pay the bills between releases.

While I haven't agreed with most of what you've posted in this thread I do tend to agree with most of this. I'm in that same boat as I have stopped buying new Sterns and made the decision to buy after code is done and I'm happy with the game. I think that may have backfired on Stern though for my money as I'm now discovering that I'm having nearly as much fun on a lot of cheaper Bally/Williams games and that I'd also like to dable in EM's now too.

Wow this thread went off the deep end fast

What is not finished about IM or Tron? Those are two real quick examples of what I would feel everyone could agree that is finished.

I own AV and TF. I consider TF to be complete. AV is pretty close. It has a couple of bugs and missing dots for a wizard mode that almost nobody has seen.

I think there is a difference between incomplete and I don't like it when it relates to code. I also think those two things get confused and lumped together so some of the arguments of incomplete are really, "I don't like it" arguments.

On to ST. To many things to try and quote so I'll just make comment. If someone is not going to enjoy the game because they only play 3 modes then they are not the causal player that also doesn't understand the 2 mode start shots. If you are just someone that walks by and sticks a buck in the game then you're probably the person that just shoots the ship and tries to keep from draining the ball. Someone that is trying to beat the game and go through modes should also be skilled enough to understand how to start a mode and how to shoot the shot.

This is what can get Stern into a no win type of situation. Those are not, "the game is incomplete" issues. Those are, "there's some features I'd like to see added". There are a lot of games that have that same type of skill shot (just plunge the ball). While I do agree those two things would be nice to have but the game is complete. All modes are present as well as advertised features and I'm not aware of any blatant bugs.

Not saying more couldn't be added but I just feel we need to make sure to give credit where it's due and to make sure that we keep the distinction between "the game is incomplete" vs "I'd like to see ____ improved/added".

That's the biggest problem with code discussions.

As far as ST - I guess I'm just not drinking the right Kool-Aid. It's had several updates and pretty cool ones at that but I still think it's an average game (at best). Granted I enjoy playing it but I actually think they have overloaded the scoring in it with the last update. Now an average game I'm getting 200-300 million points easily. I liked the old scoring MUCH better. I just wish they would have gone a different route to try and fix the time out issues. The medals, while a cool gimmick, lose the fun factor after a handful of games when you can just about max them all out for just shooting a handful of random shots that are lit.

As far as AV - You see people asking for thing because Stern openly asked for suggestions. Quite honestly, I'd be happy with it if they just fixed the "H" drop bug and the "Thor" flasher and gave me some dots for the final wizard mode. The first 2 should only take a couple hours to fix and if that is all I got then I'd be OK. People that buy a game deserve to not have a bug that basically stops the game in it's track (the H drop target).

Once again I'm left out on my own island I guess with these feelings but it's how I feel.

Not trying to derail the thread but ST is a good game but I wouldn't put it anywhere close to being in the category of it being great. Take the theme away and I bet it wouldn't be held in near the same light as it is today and that it would fall into the same light as AV, TF, Mustang, etc to where there is a small group of people that love it but most pass it along. I own the game so I wish I could say otherwise but I just find myself playing MET, AC/DC, AV, IM and my TF way more than my ST after I played a dozen of so games on the new code.

Mustang had this. Had a standard mode for full game play and also has a timed game where you go for top points in a set timeframe. Pretty sure Stern got more &*^% about that then praise when it was first seen. NBA fast break kind of has it too with the link feature. Another game/feature that doesn't get a lot of praise.

I think this is where we are at fault ourselves in the fact that we ask for innovation but when we see it we (as a community) seem to want to pick it apart vs praise them for trying something new. Look at AV, Mustang and even WWE. We cont to ask for different layouts than the standard fan layout or rehash of a previous table and when something comes out there is a lot of people that crap on the game before even playing it as it doesn't "look" fun.

Spoken like someone that didn't play MET on release code. That game was CRAP when it first hit the streets. Once Lyman got the code going is when it became a fun game and that update took quite a long time to come out.

Tron and IM really don't count as they were finished games from prior year and actually support his comment of putting profit in front of good product.

Look at the release code of games before giving him crap about his comment.

Met, X-men, TWD, Mustang, ST, WWE, etc all were pretty bad on release code. Under current code most of these are pretty good games now with WWE yet to be seen and TWD needing some features integrated in. As Markmon stated, it's the 1-2 year wait to get the game good is the problem and where this thread started off at. Pretty sure if games would get to the nearly complete state in 6 months (or less) of release you wouldn't see the bashing/concern on coding.

Me either and you are full of that bs. Met sucked big time when it first came out. There were basically no rules, no wizard modes or side modes. It was go for MB and that was basically it. Most every MET owners game started to collect dust months after getting them. And this is coming from an owner of a LE. To me, MET had some of the worst out of the box code in recent times. Fortunately, Lyman made it pretty awesome in the end.

You can keep trying to but just because words are coming out of your mouth doesn't mean that you are teaching anything anybody wants to learn.

Pushing out games before the code incorporates the items advertised and present on the PF is 100% pushing for profit ahead of quality. If you can't see this then I now fully understand why you felt MET was good out of the box. It's not me that needs to get a clue....

Please drain as you are not adding any value at all to the thread. Saying that code has to evolve is nonsense. It can evolve to make it better but it should at least incorporate the main view of the game as it's intended upon completion. Updates should be to fix bugs and add some added features, not get the game functioning fully. Williams and Bally weren't putting out games with code so basic it didn't incorporate game features and had placeholders in the code. They made updates to improve on things but they were nearly complete when launched for the most part.

I love how people that have no way to argue their point fall into the "crying" pics and comments when they are the ones in fact crying about things. Ironic, isn't it... Seriously man. Grow up and act like an adult at least. Want to throw out flack to someone and you get challenged on it and your response is to call that person a cry baby and then you want to take your marbles and go home. My 5 year old is more mature than that....

Back on topic. Stern's making a lot of improvements and getting better. Hopefully they continue the trend of better communication and add to that a little more complete game upon initial shipment. Those two things will go a long way with winning back some NIB customers (myself included).

Not Stern but BOP 2.0 just got another official update

Now that one there is funny, cleaver and true!