(Topic ID: 215014)

Magnet loop "breaks" game (TOTAN). Suggestions?

By grahamvinyl

5 years ago


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#1 5 years ago

On my TOTAN, when the ball goes over the switch that triggers the fireball loop, the game plays the sound of breaking glass and the game ends. I have taken a video of the problem here:

Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix this? It does not show on the error report when starting up the machine.

#2 5 years ago

Thats weird did this problem just occur or did you do any work on it like changing switch or diode

#3 5 years ago

I did no work on it besides switching some LEDs. I had the same issue occuring previously when the genie magnet was engaging but that issue has since stopped.

#4 5 years ago

That's a slam tilt being triggered. Looks like something is up with your switch matrix.

#5 5 years ago

Likely a switch is wired incorrectly, or a diode is backwards.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from RatShack:

That's a slam tilt being triggered. Looks like something is up with your switch matrix.

Thanks for the info! Any idea how to test that out and troubleshoot? Could something have been jiggled by simply lifting the playfield a few times? I changed no wiring.

#7 5 years ago

Maybe something as simple as a screw that was sitting in a wire harness (or just fell) and shorting a switch. I'd check all the switches really well under the playfield. It may take you some time and stepping away and coming back later.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

Thanks for the info! Any idea how to test that out and troubleshoot? Could something have been jiggled by simply lifting the playfield a few times? I changed no wiring.

up the manual and look at the switch matrix chart and see if slam tilt and fire loop are in the same row.

Quoted from pintechev:

Likely a switch is wired incorrectly, or a diode is backwards.

Quoted from dmacy:

Maybe something as simple as a screw that was sitting in a wire harness (or just fell) and shorting a switch. I'd check all the switches really well under the playfield. It may take you some time and stepping away and coming back later.

that's what im thinking might be the cause..

#9 5 years ago

To somewhat narrow it down you can see what columns and rows the affected switches are on [tilt and magnet] and check each switch listed that way. Works almost all of the time to find switch shorts.
More than likely a bent diode or shorted switch/diode from working on the game installing leds. Or as mentioned a previously lost or misplaced fallen screw.

#10 5 years ago

i put my money on this

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

I did no work on it besides switching some LEDs. I had the same issue occuring previously when the genie magnet was engaging but that issue has since stopped.

Quoted from RatShack:

That's a slam tilt being triggered. Looks like something is up with your switch matrix.

Look in your manual just inside the back cover (page 159 in the .pdf from IPDB.org). The Slam Tilt is in row one, column 2. Check the other switches in the same row or column to see if any are registering multiple switches when activated. When the playfield is raised, look at those same switches for shorts/bent diodes.
There is a switch test built into the diagnostics. I would start testing switches there.

If you don't make progress that way the next step is disconnect the playfield and test the board directly using jumpers. Any sign of battery leakage or alkaline damage on your board, especially near the battery holder?

#12 5 years ago

More info: This problem only occurs when the playfield is in its normal position. When I pull the playfield out, the problem disappears. You can see what I mean here:

Quoted from pintechev:

Likely a switch is wired incorrectly, or a diode is backwards.

I have not rewired or changed diodes and this was not a problem when I first got the machine, so I am doubtful of this being the cause.

Quoted from dmacy:

Maybe something as simple as a screw that was sitting in a wire harness (or just fell) and shorting a switch. I'd check all the switches really well under the playfield. It may take you some time and stepping away and coming back later.

I have no unaccounted for screws and have looked several times, but will keep looking.

Quoted from Hawk007:

To somewhat narrow it down you can see what columns and rows the affected switches are on [tilt and magnet] and check each switch listed that way. Works almost all of the time to find switch shorts.
More than likely a bent diode or shorted switch/diode from working on the game installing leds. Or as mentioned a previously lost or misplaced fallen screw.

The switch that triggers the Slam Tilt is labeled Ramp Made Left. In the switch matrix these two items share the white-brown wire. Slam Tilt’s other wire is green-red and RML’s other wire is Green-Yellow. But I don’t know what to do with that information! Does that mean I just visually follow each of those 3 wires until I find something out of place? I feel like I still don't fully understand the switch matrix. Is it an actual circuit board, or more of a concept that just explains where the wires run?

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

More info: This problem only occurs when the playfield is in its normal position. When I pull the playfield out, the problem disappears. You can see what I mean here:
» YouTube video

I have not rewired or changed diodes and this was not a problem when I first got the machine, so I am doubtful of this being the cause.

I have no unaccounted for screws and have looked several times, but will keep looking.

The switch that triggers the Slam Tilt is labeled Ramp Made Left. In the switch matrix these two items share the white-brown wire. Slam Tilt’s other wire is green-red and RML’s other wire is Green-Yellow. But I don’t know what to do with that information! Does that mean I just visually follow each of those 3 wires until I find something out of place? I feel like I still don't fully understand the switch matrix. Is it an actual circuit board, or more of a concept that just explains where the wires run?

The game was not in switch test and this is a diode problem on that switch/the diode has shorted replace it.look for a pinched wire when you put back the playfield it seems like its pinching a wire.its one of these 2 problems

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

The switch that triggers the Slam Tilt is labeled Ramp Made Left. In the switch matrix these two items share the orange-brown wire. Slam Tilt’s other wire is green-red and RML’s other wire is Green-Yellow. But I don’t know what to do with that information! Does that mean I just visually follow each of those 3 wires until I find something out of place? I feel like I still don't fully understand the switch matrix. Is it an actual circuit board, or more of a concept that just explains where the wires run?

It's a concept. Simply put, the MPU checks the 8 columns and the 8 rows continuously. If it detects contact on a column and a row it processes that switch. If there were no matrix the MPU would have to check 64 switches and the cabinet would have to have wiring for all of them separately.
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Switch_Matrix_Problems

In your switch test does the Ramp Made Left switch activate all the switches in the same row? same column?
Does the Harem Passage switch activate multiple switches? Left Sling? Left Standups?
Test the Coin Door Closed, Genie Standup Target, Bazaar Eject, Left Inlane, Right Outlane, Left Wire Make. Any of those showing multiple switches being activated during the test?

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from Cycloneman:

The game was not in switch test

Would you mind explaining what this means?

Also, when you say "this is a diode problem on that switch," do you mean the Tilt Slam switch or the Ramp Made Left switch?

#16 5 years ago

Just another suggestion. I had an I500 do the same thing once, and like yours it was only when the pf was down, not up. What I eventually found was a lamp socket screw had fallen out, and when the pf was down, the socket was just touching a switch causing a row short.

Like others have mentioned, go into the switch test function and activate the suspect switch. You will likely see 2 switches activate at the same time. Check each switch on that row and see if something is touching, specifically looking for loose wires and things of that nature.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

In your switch test does the Ramp Made Left switch activate all the switches in the same row? same column?

As far as I can tell, the RML switch only activates itself. I could be misinterpreting, though. I took a video here:

Great idea about checking each of the others, though. I will give that a shot. I also noticed that slamming the coin door causes the slam tilt. But is that a problem or is that it's normal function? I'm so new to all of this!

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

I also noticed that slamming the coin door causes the slam tilt. But is that a problem or is that it's normal function?

It's normal for the slam switch to activate when the door is slammed.
In home usage it's fine to disconnect or adjust the switch so it doesn't activate. Seems like something is shorting it though so I doubt this would fix the current problem.

EDIT: Your links don't work for me, looks like maybe the edit link was posted instead of the viewing link?

#19 5 years ago

Post links have been edited

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

As far as I can tell, the RML switch only activates itself. I could be misinterpreting, though. I took a video here: » YouTube video

Your video shows sw 41 working, but it also shows 42 Genie Target is made (below sw 41) and 31 Trough Eject are made. The rest of column 3 looks normal if you have the balls out.

Judging from your video in post 12 you have a short only when the playfield is down. I would inspect that ramp switch and the wiring AND the slam tilt wiring which is probably up front, very close to where the playfield is resting when it's in position.

Could still be a failed diode, do you have a DMM and the ability to replace the diode? They are just a few cents each.

#21 5 years ago

Sounds like you have some good clues and help already. I don’t have this title anymore but I’d also be checking when you put the playfield down if one of the switches is touching the metal slider mechs in both side too.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

Would you mind explaining what this means?
Also, when you say "this is a diode problem on that switch," do you mean the Tilt Slam switch or the Ramp Made Left switch?

what i meant was the game was in play not during switch test,but from your other vid that you just posted shows the switch working fine in the switch test,Yes slamming the coindoor that hard can/will cause a tilt to happen as stated above in previous post.

Quoted from dmacy:

but I’d also be checking when you put the playfield down if one of the switches is touching the metal slider mechs in both side too.

This would be your next best thing to do..turn game on and start a game.leave the coin door closed and lift up the playfield and slowly bring it back down.as soon as it shuts down look in that area of the switches and metal slider mechs and see if anything is touching each other.

look in the manual at the switch matrix chart and see if the loop switch and the tilt switch are in the same row.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Your video shows sw 41 working, but it also shows 42 Genie Target is made (below sw 41) and 31 Trough Eject are made. The rest of column 3 looks normal if you have the balls out.

First a question, then new information that has come to light: You mention 42 Genie is "made." What does that mean? Is that the way it should be? When the genie is forward, it is "made," and when I push it like it is being hit by a ball, it changes to a dot. But I figure that's how it should be, right? That's also the way the optos show up on the switch test.

NEW INFO:

When coin door is closed and genie is made (normal position? pulled forward and the metal base is not touching the receiving piece of metal at the back), Ramp Made Left and Slam Tilt activate together. Said another way, when coin door is closed and Genie is in normal position (forward) Ramp Made Left and Slam Tilt activate together. When either the coin door is open or the Genie is pushed back like it is being hit, Ramp Made Left and Slam Tilt act as they should. I feel like if I was more educated, this would be enough info for me to know how to fix it.

#24 5 years ago

FIXED!!!!! A wire under the genie rubber had become disconnected and was shorting.

20180424_115035 (resized).jpg20180424_115035 (resized).jpg

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

FIXED!!!!! A wire under the genie rubber had become disconnected and was shorting.

man..it was on top of the playfield this whole time we all thought it would be under the playfield.good job hunting it down.have fun!!

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

FIXED!!!!! A wire under the genie rubber had become disconnected and was shorting.

Green/yellow wire, I'm guessing that was switch 42? In case someone else is troubleshooting TotAN switch matrix issues in the future, is the other target number 23? The matrix calls 42 GENIE TARGET and 23 GENIE STANDUP TARGET.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Green/yellow wire, I'm guessing that was switch 42? In case someone else is troubleshooting TotAN switch matrix issues in the future, is the other target number 23? The matrix calls 42 GENIE TARGET and 23 GENIE STANDUP TARGET.

Genie standup target is the vertical rectangular yellow target to the right of the genie. is that what you were asking?

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from grahamvinyl:

Genie standup target is the vertical rectangular yellow target to the right of the genie. is that what you were asking?

Your picture in post 25 shows two green targets. Are those switches 42 and 23?

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Your picture in post 25 shows two green targets. Are those switches 42 and 23?

They work together and either one trips the genie.

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