(Topic ID: 317761)

Machine Trips GFI Receptacle even when Powered Off

By xeneize

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by xeneize
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There are 79 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

Gang:

I picked up a recent project which will cause my GFI receptacle to trip even when the machine is powered off. It usually trips within 30 minutes of the machine being plugged in - again, even when the machine is off.

Machine in question is a Bally Mata Hari.

When the issue was noted, I started by replacing the power cord and varsitor. I also replaced the rectifier board. The machine runs without issues. MPU gives me all 7 flashes, all solenoids fire, etc. The ground run seems to be intact across all contact points.

I thought that replacing the power train (which was a mess) would resolve the issue, but it hasn't.

There has never been any other occasion prior to the machine being plugged into the circuit that it would trip. If I leave the machine unplugged, the GFI never trips.

I'm stumped - your insight is appreciated!

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from xeneize:

your insight is appreciated!

I'd get an outlet checker. Then plug it into the service outlet. Then you'll know if the wall and the game are wired right or not. If it shows an issue, then I'd just try the outlet. Then you know which way to go. Wall or game. Something is wrong.

LTG : )

#3 1 year ago

I agree with checking the outlet. However GFCI outlets can test good with a circuit checker and still be faulty. The circuit checker looks for ground, 125VAC and neutral. As a GFCI ages, they can get weak and trip easier than they should for no good reason.

You can also install a regular outlet, unless outlet is located is located within 4 feet of a water source or in a garage (code) and then install a GFI circuit breaker in the box. If outlet is using 12 gauge wire you can go with a 20 amp GFCI breaker.

#4 1 year ago

Ahhhhh...the service outlet - great idea, @LTG!

The wall outlet is fine. Checks out as "wired correctly". The outlet is a newer (<1year) heavy duty GFCI outlet.

Unfortunately, the service outlet is 2 prong and my outlet checkers (I have 2) are 3-prong. Any suggestions on how to validate the wiring at the service outlet? I guess I "could" just disassemble the receptacle and see which wire is being routed to which slot. But even if reverse wired - would that cause the GFI to trip?

It may be relevant to mention that this behavior has persisted even after replacing the power cord and varsitor and the replacement should be correctly wired as per Vid's vid1900 guide. In any event, a photo is attached to provide a visual.

Thanks for the feedback!

20220628_090352 (resized).jpg20220628_090352 (resized).jpg
#5 1 year ago

Did you change the actual line filter as well?

-3
#6 1 year ago

The GFCI Outlet will trip for one of two reasons, overload on the circuit, or a ground fault, assuming it is not damaged. It could stay energized and show no signs of problems with nothing plugged in and still have an issue on the electronics inside the GFCI. I would suggest that you unplug the machine and plug in some normal load, like a vacuum cleaner, for instance and see if the GFCI outlet operates normally. Assuming there is no problem with the GFCI, you probably have a ground fault inside the machine and it might be hard to find. A ground fault would be an incorrect connection from the green ground wire to the white neutral wire in the machine. The GFCI outlet would trip for this condition and the circuit breaker at the panel at your house probably would not trip for this problem, unless that circuit breaker at your panel has a ground fault element in it..

#7 1 year ago

Xenon75 I did not change the line filter. I considered it, but didn't as I didn't have one on hand. My understanding of the filter though was that it simply reduced noise/interference. If we believe it will resolve the issue, I can certainly order one.

Dent00 When the machine is unplugged, the GFCI outlet does not trip. I can run other machines (or the vacuum) on that circuit and it does not trip. It ONLY trips when the machine in question is plugged in. Whether or not there is load on the circuit makes no difference. I have a high level of confidence that the outlet is not the problem. Again, GFCI trips even if this machine is OFF, but plugged in.

I think you may be on to something with the ground fault theory. Does that mean I should inspect every inch of ground braid and where it makes contact? You can see in the photo above it does indeed make contact with the line filter. However, there is no ground to the service outlet. (Photo attached).

Quoted from Dent00:

A ground fault would be an incorrect connection from the green ground wire to the white neutral wire in the machine.

Wouldn't this only take place in the main cab at or before the transformer? Or do I need to also be inspecting the head (actually, I guess the transformer IS in the head in this machine).

20220628_093622 (resized).jpg20220628_093622 (resized).jpg

#8 1 year ago

You mentioned that you replaced the line cord to the machine - Did you replace the cord cap (The end that plugs into the wall) or was it a molded end piece that you didn't have to mess with?

If you installed a cord cap, open it back up and make sure you don't have a whisker (single strand) of the wires out of place.

If this is a new cord with a molded cord cap, use a meter on the 20 M setting and measure from white to black, black to green, white to green. You should see high (near infinite) resistance. If not, then disconnect the end of the cord inside the machine and measure again. If you do not see infinite, you got a bad power cord.

Assuming the GFCI is good, then there has to be something wrong with the cord or cord connection. I don't see anything jumping out at me in your pics.

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Ahhhhh...the service outlet - great idea, LTG!
The wall outlet is fine. Checks out as "wired correctly". The outlet is a newer (<1year) heavy duty GFCI outlet.
Unfortunately, the service outlet is 2 prong and my outlet checkers (I have 2) are 3-prong. Any suggestions on how to validate the wiring at the service outlet? I guess I "could" just disassemble the receptacle and see which wire is being routed to which slot. But even if reverse wired - would that cause the GFI to trip?
It may be relevant to mention that this behavior has persisted even after replacing the power cord and varsitor and the replacement should be correctly wired as per Vid's vid1900 guide. In any event, a photo is attached to provide a visual.
Thanks for the feedback! [quoted image]

Is the line input hot and neutral backwards at the filter? Shouldn't it be white to blue, black to brown?

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

You mentioned that you replaced the line cord to the machine - Did you replace the cord cap (The end that plugs into the wall) or was it a molded end piece that you didn't have to mess with?

It was a fully molded cord end piece - no cord cap. I'll measure resistance and report back.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from twhtalm:

Is the line input hot and neutral backwards at the filter? Shouldn't it be white to blue, black to brown?

twhtalm - this might indeed be the issue - keep in mind I did NOT rewire what's exiting the filter and running to the service outlet. I did go back to vid1900 s guide for replacing power cords and found this -

Quoted from vid1900:

That's backwards

Brown is Hot, thus should go to Black, and be fused

So, maybe that end of things was reversed wired at the factory. What do we think, should I cut the crimp connectors - flip the wires to a Brown/Black and Blue/White configuration and see what we get?

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from xeneize:

twhtalm - this might indeed be the issue - keep in mind I did NOT rewire what's exiting the filter and running to the service outlet. I did go back to vid1900 s guide for replacing power cords and found this -

So, maybe that end of things was reversed wired at the factory. What do we think, should I cut the crimp connectors - flip the wires to a Brown/Black and Blue/White configuration and see what we get?

How much continuity between the hot black wire and the grounded braid directly behind?

#13 1 year ago

Here is a photo from Vid's guide which makes me think we have an error made at the factory - I will reverse those two wires exiting the filter headed to the service outlet and report back.

Vid (resized).jpgVid (resized).jpg
#14 1 year ago

Your blue and brown coming out of the filter are reverse of the ones in the second pic. So maybe the black and white from your line cord need to be reversed from what you have done.

#15 1 year ago

Agreed that they are reversed in the photo. I just popped the hood on another Mata Hari and it is wired the same way - Black to Blue & White to Brown.

What are the odds that both of them were mis-wired at the factory?

The plot thickens....

#16 1 year ago

I'm not sure how the filter being wired backwards would cause the GFCI to trip with the machine turned off, unless the filter is bad.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

I'm not sure how the filter being wired backwards would cause the GFCI to trip with the machine turned off, unless the filter is bad.

It might not trip the GFCI but hot chassis are not a good thing.

#18 1 year ago

OK, so check out this post from Quench in the guide to changing a power cord:

Quoted from Quench:

The power cord hot wire connects to the EMI filter and comes out to the games black wire. This black wire goes to the power switch that connects it to the yellow wire which then goes to the rectifier board at J2 pin 6. This pin goes to the mains fuse on the rectifier board.

The power cord neutral wire connects to the EMI filter and comes out to the games white wire. This white wire goes to the power switch that connects it to the blue-white wire which then goes to the rectifier board at J2 pin 7.

I have not yet flipped the wires and confirmed that (if I turn the power switch to the "on" position) that I have continuity from the hot side of the plug to A2-J2-6. Likewise, I have continuity from the neutral side of the plug to A2-J2-7.

This makes me believe that things may actually be wired correctly.

#19 1 year ago

It should also be noted that in the photo above from the Vid Guide that the blue wire is exiting the LEFT side of the filter. On my filter, you'll note that the blue wire is exiting from the RIGHT side of the filter - and the mounting orientation of the filter is the same.

Does that have any bearing on the issue?

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Dent00:

The GFCI Outlet will trip for one of two reasons, overload on the circuit, or a ground fault

Electrician chiming in here. This is false. A GFI trips for one reason only... a ground fault. It does not trip due to an overload! It is not an overcurrent device in any capacity.

#21 1 year ago

MattElder So, then am I chasing a phantom by scrutinizing the wiring leaving the filter?

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from Dent00:

The GFCI Outlet will trip for one of two reasons, overload on the circuit, or a ground fault,

Quoted from MattElder:

Electrician chiming in here. This is false. A GFI trips for one reason only... a ground fault. It does not trip due to an overload! It is not an overcurrent device in any capacity.

GFCI and GFI are not exactly the same. https://bates-electric.com/gfi-vs-gfci-outlets/
"The main difference between the GFCI and GFI terminologies is that while a GFI is local, the GFCI is used in the context of both a local receptacle and a circuit breaker which provides ground interference protection for the whole circuit."

And it's a bit misleading to say they trip only on a ground fault because that can lead people to only look for a problem on the ground wire. They will trip on any difference in potential and that could be faulty ground wire or neutral wire, wherever there is a difference between current flowing in and current flowing out. That's one reason you can install one of those outlets on an ungrounded circuit and still be protected.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from MattElder:

Electrician chiming in here. This is false. A GFI trips for one reason only... a ground fault. It does not trip due to an overload! It is not an overcurrent device in any capacity.

You are correct, most GFCI outlets do not have overload trip capability.

#24 1 year ago

OK, so I have looked at other photos and determined that regardless of which side the blue and brown wires exit the filter - that the overwhelming consensus is that brown goes to black and blue to white...so I can swap those.

The only other thing I can think of is to try to chase down a ground connection gremlin.

In any event, I am learning from you guys - and you sharing your insight is greatly appreciated!

#25 1 year ago

When I mentioned that there is an incorrect connection between the green and white wires that creates a ground fault, that means anything in those circuits that those wires connect to. The problem could be in the plug, the cord, or in the machine somewhere. It could be hard to find.

#26 1 year ago

I feel compelled to mention that problems like this are sometimes the reason why metal rails on the side of the machine will shock you if you are touching an adjacent machine's rails that are grounded properly. This is an unsafe situation and I suggest that you try to locate the problem, whatever it is. GFCI outlets are primarily used in areas where water is common, like the bathroom and kitchen, to prevent people standing in water and being electrocuted. The same principal applies to the pinball machine if there is a ground fault inside it.

#27 1 year ago

Dent00 I am going to need to look for a ground fault.

Right now, I don't believe cutting the wires exiting the filter and reversing them is going to resolve my issue. Now, that I have confirmed continuity from both sides of the plug all the way back to the correct pins on the rectifier plug (A2-J2), it would appear that things are wired correctly.

#28 1 year ago

OK, here's what's nuts.

The OTHER (second) Mata Hari has always been on this circuit. There has never been an issue with the GFI tripping. When I cracked open the second Mata Hari a few minutes ago to see how it was wired up and saw that it matched the first (project) Mata Hari, I was intrigued by WHY if it was wired the exact same way, it has never tripped the GFI.

Keep in mind that the second Mata Hari was plugged in, but NOT powered on. While I was poking around under the playfield, I touched the ground wire and the GFI tripped. So, when I touched the braid on the second (long-term resident) machine, while it was plugged in, but powered off, the GFI tripped.

Is this another clue?

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Keep in mind that the second Mata Hari was plugged in, but NOT powered on. While I was poking around under the playfield, I touched the ground wire and the GFI tripped. So, when I touched the braid on the second (long-term resident) machine, while it was plugged in, but powered off, the GFI tripped.

Is this another clue?

Maybe. Measure the resistance to ground from the braid to the ground wire where the cord enters the machines on both the Mata Hari . They should both be zero.

When you touched the braid and tripped it that means you touching it changed the potential, probably providing a better path to ground. The braid should have a good connection directly to the ground wire on the cord, you touching it should not improve the ground path at all.

I bet the malfunctioning Mata Hari has a small milli-amp current getting onto the braid from somewhere.

#30 1 year ago

the filter is balanced, the “polarity” is irrelevant. But it does have capacitors to ground, so if they’re leaky, it will trip a gfci. Also if the circuit is fed by an inverter (ie solar) the high frequency content could trip the gfci, especially if it’s a very sensitive one. You can eliminate the filter to see if that solves the problem. The machine will work exactly the same without it, but could cause potential radio interference, especially to nearby AM radios.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Dent00:

You are correct, most GFCI outlets do not have overload trip capability.

In 25 years in the trade I have never seen ANY that have that capability. If you know of one that I'm not aware of, please share. I will spread the word, seriously.

#32 1 year ago

YeOldPinPlayer Good feedback.

Here is a shot of the resistance from the ground lug on the filter to the ground braid: 0.2.

This is the project machine which was constantly tripping the GFI by simply being plugged in.

Second machine's findings to follow.

machine1 (resized).jpgmachine1 (resized).jpg

#33 1 year ago

Machine number 2 (the long-term resident) actually reads a higher resistance of 0.3

Soooooooo - neither of them are reading zero. Are we close enough to zero, or do I simply have issues with both units?
Machine2 (resized).jpgMachine2 (resized).jpg

#34 1 year ago

What does your meter read when both leads are together? In other words, what does your meter read when it should be zero?

Also, what does the ground braid to the ground prong at the wall end of the cord read?

Have you disconnected the cord from the filter and verify that the cord itself is good?

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Are we close enough to zero

I think they are close enough, both have a good ground connection.

You might disconnect the braid at the transformer and connect your meter in line between end of braid and transformer lug. Set it to read milli-amps. Any current flowing? If not maybe disconnect the ground for the service outlet and connect that to your meter and your meter to ground. Any current flowing that way?
I'm trying to think what's hot with the machine off. Should have current flowing through the service outlet, then to the switch and it should stop there. If you're getting a small current draw maybe bypass or disconnect the service outlet and see if it goes away?

Is the ground braid even connected to the service outlet or cover directly?

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from MattElder:

If you know of one that I'm not aware of, please share. I will spread the word, seriously.

I have observed a damaged GFCI outlet trip on a 10 amp load test with no ground fault current applied.
The outlet was not designed to trip on load, but since it had problems with the circuitry inside, it did just that.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Is the ground braid even connected to the service outlet or cover directly?

This one I can answer immediately - there is NO ground connection to the service outlet on either machine.

#38 1 year ago

Billc479

Quoted from Billc479:

What does your meter read when both leads are together? In other words, what does your meter read when it should be zero?

0.0-0.1

Quoted from Billc479:

Also, what does the ground braid to the ground prong at the wall end of the cord read?

On project machine: 0.4
On long-term resident: 0.1

Quoted from Billc479:

Have you disconnected the cord from the filter and verify that the cord itself is good?

Yes, and the problem was persistent with the old cord prior to replacement.

#39 1 year ago

Some peoples answers really make me laugh...... Gfci's measure the current from hot and neutral independently, if there is a difference (depending on letter grade of gfci) it trips. All current entering a load SHOULD BE the same leaving the load.

If you are getting mildly shocked from one game to another or to the floor from a game, it's because there are eddy currents that want to go to ground of grounded/bonded pinball metal that cant due to an interrupted path to ground, broken ground prong ect., you might ask yourself why this situation doesn't always trip a GFI. it's because most of the time that Eddy currents are induced from magnetic lines of flux from the transformer and have nothing to do with the total current between hot and neutral of the machine.

#40 1 year ago

Years ago, I had a GFCI outlet that would randomly trip in my basement, maybe once a week. Funny thing was that I'd sometimes hear it trip as I was coming down the basement stairs. I had about 8 games plugged into the outlet. Over the course of a few months, I'd unplug a game to see if the GFCI would trip and narrowed it down to my Baby Pacman. I ended up finding a washer that had come loose from somewhere and fell vertically right next to the lug connection for the hot leg of the plug inside the game. The vibration of walking near the game would be enough to shake the washer, trip the GFCI and the washer would end up with just enough gap to not completely short out.

#41 1 year ago

I'm currently replacing every outlet and switch in a 3.5K sq ft home. Installed a GFCI in a bathroom and it did not have power and the 2 load outlets were also out. Turned out the new GFCI was defective and was tripped and could not be reset.

#42 1 year ago
Quoted from tomdrum:

I'm currently replacing every outlet and switch in a 3.5K sq ft home. Installed a GFCI in a bathroom and it did not have power and the 2 load outlets were also out. Turned out the new GFCI was defective and was tripped and could not be reset.

A lot of these new GFCI outlets that you get these days on the bargain racks have a little "mickey mouse" circuit card inside with surface mounted electronics on it that are especially susceptible to damage from voltage transients that might occur with lightning in the general area (for instance). They are made as cheap as possible and prone to fail with any small electrical disturbance that affects them.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from Dent00:

A lot of these new GFCI outlets that you get these days on the bargain racks have a little "mickey mouse" circuit card inside with surface mounted electronics on it that are especially susceptible to damage from voltage transients that might occur with lightning in the general area (for instance). They are made as cheap as possible and prone to fail with any small electrical disturbance that affects them.

It was an Eaton from Lowes the homeowner bought. I was on the job hourly not bid, so it is what it is.

#44 1 year ago

What do you read from the ground braid just inside the door, left side of cabinet to the ground prong on your wall plug?

On my machines(Space Invaders, Mata Hari, Power Play, Evel K) I read 0.3 to 0.4 ohms.

#45 1 year ago

Following this to see what resolves it. I love a good troubleshooting thread.

#46 1 year ago

OK, so I am in the office today and cannot troubleshoot as quickly today - darn work for getting in the way of important stuff like working on pinball!

I did disconnect the service outlet last night and capped the wires. The GFI held longer than it ever has (maybe an hour) but then did consistently trip it. I went through 3 cycles just to make sure the behavior went unchanged.

Quoted from Billc479:

What do you read from the ground braid just inside the door, left side of cabinet to the ground prong on your wall plug?

Billc479 Will measure this later today.

I do have a spare GFCI receptacle on hand and may even change that as well, if we don't figure this out. However, keep in mind that the other Mata Hari is plugged into the same receptacle and it never trips it.

#47 1 year ago

Try bypassing the EMI filter and take it out of the equation like Mthomasslo mentioned in post #30.

#48 1 year ago

Quench You made it to the party! Ok, I'll try to do that tonight.

To confirm steps - that means, desoldering my power cord wires from the filter and then tying the black and white power cord wires to the black and white wires currently crimped to the blue and brown wires exiting the filter. Additionally, tying the ground wire to the power cord to the braid in the cabinet.

Sound about right?

Mthomasslo sorry, I wasn't ignoring that suggestion in post 30 - just hadn't gotten there yet!

#49 1 year ago

Is this an Arc Fault interrupter by any chance?

#50 1 year ago

Seamlesswall

Quoted from Seamlesswall:

Is this an Arc Fault interrupter by any chance?

It is not.

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