(Topic ID: 317761)

Machine Trips GFI Receptacle even when Powered Off

By xeneize

2 years ago


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  • 79 posts
  • 21 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by xeneize
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 79 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
#51 2 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

Sound about right?

Yes, disconnect the EMI filters lower blue and brown wires from the games black and white wires at the crimps. Disconnect the line cords black and white wires from the EMI filter. Connect the line cord black wire to the games black wire and line cord white wire to the games white wire. You can leave the ground wire on the EMI filter since all the filters other wire/connections will be disconnected removing any line paths.
Note doing this you're also disconnecting the MOV but you've already replaced it so it should be ok.
The game will operate without the EMI filter and MOV but consider this a temporary measure.

#52 2 years ago

Quench Ay, yay, Cap'n! Thanks for confirming! Not having to move the ground (which now, that I think about it totally makes sense) saved me from one more desolder point!

#53 2 years ago

Replace the GFI and see if that helps

#54 2 years ago
Quoted from timab2000:

Replace the GFI and see if that helps

I think running an extension cord to a different GFI would be a better option for testing. But it still would not explain why two 'identical' Mata Hari are giving different results on the same GFI. There has to be a fault in the table that trips the GFI outlet when OP touches the ground braid even when the game is off.

#55 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I think running an extension cord to a different GFI would be a better option for testing. But it still would not explain why two 'identical' Mata Hari are giving different results on the same GFI. There has to be a fault in the table that trips the GFI outlet when OP touches the ground braid even when the game is off.

Agreed.

#56 2 years ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

I think running an extension cord to a different GFI would be a better option for testing.

And it's easier then desoldering wires. Since I have a late night at work tonight - I may have to settle with just the extension cord test this evening.

#57 2 years ago

OK, so last night I didn't get home until after 10PM. Rather than take anything apart, I started with the extension cord approach.

Ran an extension cord from the machine to a different GFCI receptacle in the same room. The machine was the only thing plugged into the receptacle. It tripped in under 15 minutes. Machine was never powered "ON", just plugged in and "OFF".

Do we now feel more confident that the issue is definitely rooted in the machine, rather than the receptacle?

#58 2 years ago

If nothing else plugged into those same outlets trips the GFCI, then yes. Only 4 things it can be are the filter, possible leakage due to insulation breakdown in the transformer, an intermittent short in the wiring harness or around the PC board connectors feeding the transformer primary, or leakage in the power switch (assuming the plate it's attached to is grounded).

The filter is still the prime suspect. A 2 minute job to unsolder 4 wires and temporarily bypass it by splicing the "ins" to the "outs". Hopefully that stops the problem and you can replace the filter. If not, it's time to look at the other three, and hope it's not the transformer (also if there's a metal cover around the transformer, be sure no sharp edges are cutting into any of the wires.

#59 2 years ago

Mthomasslo

No interference from the cage. It is not making contact with any wires.

The power switch is indeed grounded.

When I get home this evening, I'll bypass the filter - agreed - it would be the "best problem" to have.

If it DOES end up being transformer related, at least I can take heart in the fact that those are available.

#60 2 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

If it DOES end up being transformer related

The original power switch is a "DPST" (double pole single throw). In the OFF position, both neutral and hot/active are disconnected from the rectifier board and transformer. Unless someones messed around/changed the power switch wiring to single pole, the transformer is isolated out of the equation.

#61 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

The original power switch is a "DPST" (double pole single throw). In the OFF position, both neutral and hot/active are disconnected from the rectifier board and transformer. Unless someones messed around/changed the power switch wiring to single pole, the transformer is isolated out of the equation.

Good catch. absolutely correct, as long as the DPST switch is still there, the nothing "beyond" it could cause the "issue" when turned "off"

#62 2 years ago

You guys are GOOD!

That detail about double pole versus single pole and its potential to isolate the transformer, would have slipped past me. Yes, the DPST switch is still present.

Look out filter, I'm coming for you!

#63 2 years ago

Based on info that you have provided so far, I am guessing that the EMI filter has some issue inside that box.
If there was a voltage disturbance it could have been damaged, or it just might have problems from its age.
If that is the case, that will be a relatively easy fix to replace it.
One possible preventive measure, assuming that is the problem, is to plug the machine into an outlet strip with surge protection.
They are common and have the yellow and green lights to show that the protection is working.

#64 2 years ago
Quoted from Dent00:

Based on info that you have provided so far, I am guessing that the EMI filter has some issue inside that box.
If there was a voltage disturbance it could have been damaged, or it just might have problems from its age.
If that is the case, that will be a relatively easy fix to replace it.
One possible preventive measure, assuming that is the problem, is to plug the machine into an outlet strip with surge protection.
They are common and have the yellow and green lights to show that the protection is working.

That would be redundant as most search protectors clamping voltage is above 400 volts, which is garbage, the red disc you see in his picture of the emi filter is a varister they were used on on a lot of older games and they're clamping voltages 130 that's the best surge protector money can buy it will short together and blow the breaker.

#65 2 years ago

Maybe you have an outdoor line whose conduit rusted away and is leaking voltage into the ground so that when your hands and feet get sweaty after playing a bit and you touch the concrete floor and grounded metal on your game you get shocked!

Happened to me, took a while to figure that one out.

-1
#66 2 years ago
Quoted from wisefwumyogwave:

That would be redundant as most search protectors clamping voltage is above 400 volts, which is garbage, the red disc you see in his picture of the emi filter is a varister they were used on on a lot of older games and they're clamping voltages 130 that's the best surge protector money can buy it will short together and blow the breaker.

It might be redundant, but I will tell you that a lot of electricians are recommending surge protection be added at the main panel for most houses where code updates are being installed. Arc Fault Breakers and Surge Protection and are commonly added features and there are generally not cheap. Having an outlet strip with surge protection is like buying cheap insurance, plus it gives you another place to turn off your pinball machine and a visual indication that the surge protection is active.

#67 2 years ago
Quoted from Dent00:

It might be redundant, but I will tell you that a lot of electricians are recommending surge protection be added at the main panel for most houses where code updates are being installed. Arc Fault Breakers and Surge Protection and are commonly added features and there are generally not cheap. Having an outlet strip with surge protection is like buying cheap insurance, plus it gives you another place to turn off your pinball machine and a visual indication that the surge protection is active.

The varistor is they only surge protection that machine needs at 130v, your comments thus far in this thread have proved to me you don't really understand what you're talking about. Do you know what a clamping voltage rating is? Surge protection is mostly a waste of money if the clamping voltage is high, most the surge protectors electricians will install in your panel have a 600+ clamping voltage and 600 is if you're lucky, meaning 600 volts will hit anything plugged into the wall, if that device is on.... It's fucked. If it's off it should* be okay.

#68 2 years ago

Due to how an EMI filter works - you will always see a bit of leakage current. Leakage current is which what triggers GFCIs.
A 5EV1 emi filter has a leakage current of about 0.4mA max.
A typical GFCI usually trigger at a leakage current of 4mA (varies widely).
GFCI outlets do go bad over time. The predicted lifespan is about 10 years, yet I have never actually seen one go bad. During this aging period, some of these become more and more sensitive. Others just stop working which is why you are supposed to hit the test button occasionally.

It could be as simple as needing a new GFCI outlet (which costs less than a replacement EMI filter).

#69 2 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Due to how an EMI filter works - you will always see a bit of leakage current. Leakage current is which what triggers GFCIs.
A 5EV1 emi filter has a leakage current of about 0.4mA max.
A typical GFCI usually trigger at a leakage current of 4mA (varies widely).
GFCI outlets do go bad over time. The predicted lifespan is about 10 years, yet I have never actually seen one go bad. During this aging period, some of these become more and more sensitive. Others just stop working which is why you are supposed to hit the test button occasionally.
It could be as simple as needing a new GFCI outlet (which costs less than a replacement EMI filter).

I've seen a few just die, but I've got an older early 90s house. Class A I thought were the quickest tripping at 5ma but I could be wrong.

I know in FLA electricians must install class A per their license in homes, but that doesn't stop the hardware stores from selling junk ones at 5 bucks. If your gfci outlet isn't in the 20 dollar range be skeptical of the class!

#70 2 years ago
Quoted from Dent00:

I will tell you that a lot of electricians are recommending surge protection be added at the main panel for most houses where code updates are being installed. Arc Fault Breakers and Surge Protection and are commonly added features and there are generally not cheap. Having an outlet strip with surge protection is like buying cheap insurance, plus it gives you another place to turn off your pinball machine and a visual indication that the surge protection is active.

Regarding electricians "recommending" surge suppression devices and arc fault breakers, it's more the case that they are a requirement now. Surge supression on new residential services (new construction or upgrade) has been in effect since adoption of the 2020 NEC. Arc fault breakers on many circuits have been required since the 2008 NEC (if I remember correctly), and they continue to add required use of them every code cycle.

Power strip surge supressors are a waste of money in regards to saving anything from a lightning strike or big power surge. Hell, I've seen good whole house surge suppressors not save everything on a direct hit. Unplug anything that you truly need to protect. It's the only sure way.

Anyway, just throwing all this out there because it's not that we're pushing sales of these things, we have to install them per code.

-2
#71 2 years ago
Quoted from MattElder:

Regarding electricians "recommending" surge suppression devices and arc fault breakers, it's more the case that they are a requirement now. Surge supression on new residential services (new construction or upgrade) has been in effect since adoption of the 2020 NEC. Arc fault breakers on many circuits have been required since the 2008 NEC (if I remember correctly), and they continue to add required use of them every code cycle.
Power strip surge supressors are a waste of money in regards to saving anything from a lightning strike or big power surge. Hell, I've seen good whole house surge suppressors not save everything on a direct hit. Unplug anything that you truly need to protect. It's the only sure way.
Anyway, just throwing all this out there because it's not that we're pushing sales of these things, we have to install them per code.

It is true that the NEC has changed to require surge protection and arc fault circuit breakers on new construction. However, existing panels and protection they contain are largely accepted because they are "grandfathered" into service. If there is a major repair required or a major construction project, these type of code updates can be required and a lot of electricians will "recommend" these code updates be installed as a part of that work.

#72 2 years ago
Quoted from G-P-E:

Due to how an EMI filter works - you will always see a bit of leakage current. Leakage current is which what triggers GFCIs.
A 5EV1 emi filter has a leakage current of about 0.4mA max.
A typical GFCI usually trigger at a leakage current of 4mA (varies widely).
GFCI outlets do go bad over time. The predicted lifespan is about 10 years, yet I have never actually seen one go bad. During this aging period, some of these become more and more sensitive. Others just stop working which is why you are supposed to hit the test button occasionally.
It could be as simple as needing a new GFCI outlet (which costs less than a replacement EMI filter).

Great to hear from you ED.

#73 2 years ago

Today's update:

Last night I bypassed the filter around 7PM. As of this morning, the GFCI has NOT tripped. Again, the receptacle in question was a good quality GFCI outlet installed under 6 months ago.

I would say we have a resolution! Thank you to everyone who helped us get there - YOU guys are what makes Pinside awesome!

It's funny, but cfh remarks in his guides (which collectively, are the pinball "Bible", if you're not familiar with them) that filters going bad is uncommon.

However, here's a perfect example of where "extremely rare" does not mean "never" and one must be thorough and never rule out anything!

G-P-E your contribution was extra special. When I tell you that you have been on my mind and in my prayers - it's not just idle talk. I mean it. There were several times during the course of this thread in which I went to your website to check the values of components as I also rebuilt the solenoid driver board and considered purchasing more line filters. You are truly an asset to pinball - we've missed you and we're in your corner!

I will wait until Monday, but if we go all weekend without it tripping again, I'll mark this topic as "resolved".

#74 2 years ago
Quoted from xeneize:

that filters going bad is extremely rare.

It happens, this ones got a dead short circuit - one day I'll cut the back open and have a look:

IMG_0009a.jpgIMG_0009a.jpg

#75 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

one day I'll cut the back open and have a look

It's funny you should say that, Quench - that was my plan exactly for the one in question.

#76 2 years ago

Bit of explaning: Current flow should always be between hot and neutral. If you have any current flow between hot and ground then you have leakage current.
There are two caps at the output of this filter going to ground. For AC voltage, there will be current flow through these to ground. This is considered leakage current but is necessary in an EMI filter.
filter_leakage (resized).jpgfilter_leakage (resized).jpg

#77 2 years ago

What kind of caps are used in an EMI filter? On the one hand I can't imagine something like that would use electrolytics which we all know are prone to aging out, and you don't typically hear that applied to EMI filters. But OTOH, if they *are* fragile caps, that might explain what's going on with this weirdness. Probably not worth the effort in any case but I wonder if recapping this would fix it?

10
#78 2 years ago

"Across the line" or "Class Y" type ceramic capacitors are used in filters between hot/neutral and ground. You will find these and "Class X" in a lot of electronics equipment with the caps directly across the incoming AC power to reduce conducted emi radiation (to pass FCC tests). The power filters are possibly potted. If so, you won't be able to find them in the 'goo' let alone replace them.

From R&J components website:
"“Across-the-Line Capacitors”, or X Capacitors, serve a crucial role in many EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) and RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) applications. “Across-the-Line” Capacitors suppress electrical noise, provide protection against shock and provide operational insulation. Generally the dielectric of these “safety” capacitors are encased in a flame retardant case.

X Capacitors can be classified into three subclasses: Class X1, Class X2 and Class X3. The most common of these classes are X1 and X2. X1 Capacitors have enhanced impulse ratings and are used where very high transients (or high amplitude sounds) are likely to occur. X2 Capacitors are more often used in more general applications.

Another type of “safety” capacitor that suppresses RFI is a Y Capacitor or “Line-to-Ground” Capacitor. Unlike the X Capacitor, the Y Capacitor is designed to be connected between a current carrying conductor and a grounded conductor. The X Capacitor, on the other hand, is connected between two current carrying conductors or AC lines. Y Capacitors are manufactured in four classes; Y1, Y2, Y3 and Y4. The most common are Y1 and Y2.

Both X and Y Capacitors are rated according their voltage and peak pulse voltage. The peak pulse voltage indicates the extreme conditions, such as power surges and lightning strikes, these capacitors are able to withstand. Most household appliances contain X2 or Y2 capacitors. X2 Capacitors are impulse tested to 2.5kV and Y2 Capacitors are impulse tested to 5kV. However, when over-voltage occurs, these “safety” capacitors can fail. “Across-the-Line” Capacitors failure may result in an applications poor performance or a blown fuse but, there is no imminent danger to the user. “Line-to-Ground” Capacitors, however, can result in electrical shock or worse when the ground connection is lost.

Overall, these “safety” capacitors are designed to handle high voltage impulses while protecting the circuit and the user from harm."

#79 2 years ago

No issues over the long weekend, so going to mark this one as "resolved".

Again, my sincere thanks to everyone who helped figure this one out!

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