(Topic ID: 185379)

Gottlieb Flipper Pool - Machine Plays But No Score Given

By Jc-trout

7 years ago


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    #1 7 years ago

    I've fixed the original problem on my Gottlieb Flipper Pool of the game not resetting which I just posted about it being the coin door credit switch. Now as I can play a game, it doesn't give me any points and there is no sound/chimes either. All the numbered lights work and when you either roll over one or hit one on the circle targets, the pool ball to the corresponding number pops up at the top of the backglass. But when the ball hits the pop bumpers or slingshots and any other function, no sound. The score motor spins on reset but I checked the coil on it and it read .3 with one meter and .5 with another. Not sure if that's ok or not, because it doesn't look like a typical, separate coil. This one seems to be connected to the score motor. Thanks in advance and have a great weekend everyone. JC.

    #2 7 years ago

    That's the coiling of the motor of the score motor. (called a "field coil", apparently)

    Are you sure you plugged in all the connectors in the head? I have seen this happen in my own collection when I was newer, I forgot to plug in a tiny connector that goes straight from the playfield into the backbox and it did the exact thing you described. I am not sure if Flipper Pool has this plug as that was on a 1970's machine but since then I have seen quite a few machines with the same plug.

    Otherwise, you may want to check whatever controls most of the 30 volts to the playfield, clearly you are getting some if the relay bank relays are working (controls the balls) but you are losing it somewhere else. I am assuming this game has a shared fuse between all of it so I do not think that would be it. Dirty tilt relay switch? Weird dirty hold relay issue? I don't think that last thing would allow the pool ball functionality to work, though. But I've seen games where it doesn't care, either, similar to how kickout holes are always live to make sure the ball doesn't get trapped when the game is "dark" (but on), or to make sure the ball kicks out when the game was powered off with a ball in or heading to a kickout hole. So, if that section of circuitry (the relay bank) is not wired to depend on the hold relay, I would check the hold relay. Are your pop bumpers and kickers firing? (I assume so.)

    #3 7 years ago

    Hi JC
    You should buy a schematics. I show "Buckaroo - One-Player-Replay-Pin" and "Central Park - One-Player-Replay-Pin" --- and Your "Add-a-Ball-Pin ?

    On the bottom is Transformer-HOT - then upwards some switches on relays - towards top of the JPG - the playfield-stuff. "Looking-up" is so much easyer then "guessing", greetings Rolf

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    #4 7 years ago

    Thank you Otaku. All the plugs (jones' plugs?) are plugged in and I've cleaned them with a small wire brush multiple times. And I looked at all the solder connections on the plugs over the weekend, and they all looked good. The pop bumpers and kickers do "not" fire either. However, the lights to all the corresponding numbers mentioned above do work. Just no points given and no sound. I will check the hold relay when I get back at it in a day or two. And thank you Rolf. I've been trying to figure it out without the schematics, but I may get them if I can't get it working right. Thanks again for both of your input, it is very helpful. JC.

    #5 7 years ago

    Update, I finally ordered the schematics yesterday. I still can't get the playfield going. It's like the whole playfield is dead except for the rollover lights and the flippers. The hold relay looks ok and clean, but I'm not sure what else to look for. I'm going to mess around with it some more before the schematics arrive next week. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, JC.

    #6 7 years ago

    I finally received my schematics yesterday, so now I have to try and make sense of it all. This is my first attempt at using schematics. Any tips or suggestions on how to proceed and what to start with? Thank you.

    #7 7 years ago

    I started looking at the schematics over the weekend, but still no luck in fixing my problem. I can start and play a game, but still no score given. All the rollover lights work on the play field and release the corresponding pool ball number on the back glass. The 3 pop bumpers toward the top of the play field aren't working and the sling shots above the flippers are dead also. I noticed last night that when the ball hit the right pop bumper, it (the relay?) stayed energized and didn't reset until the game ended. It just kept humming and stayed locked until game over. I'm going to look into that more this evening. Thank you in advance if anyone has any ideas.

    #8 7 years ago

    If you can scan the schematic and attach it here in one piece we can almost certainly help you. I have lots of experience diagnosing EMs but new here so not sure if you can send me a message when the schematic is available. Otherwise, EMs (and pinballs in general) are very logical so if you like puzzles, you should do OK if you take your time.

    #9 7 years ago

    Hi JC +
    in post-3 I showed some examples --- on the bottom in the JPG is the transformer --- upwards are the connecting wires to "finally on top of the JPG the Playfield stuff like Flipper-Bats".
    And the specific switches that control the wiring: These are of interest. Want to show from Your schematics that area ? Greetings Rolf

    #10 7 years ago

    HowardR - Thank you for the words of encouragement. I'm sure it will get easier as I move along with the schematics. @rolf_martin_062, I will take some photos this evening of the transformer area and add them here. Thank you, JC.

    #11 7 years ago

    Update. I'm working on getting a good photo of the schematics to add, but I came across this possible issue. It is relay "J", and it has brown, burnt marks around it where it is located underneath the play field. From my schematics, relay J should be an A-7676, not the A-9740 that is in the machine. Also, where the wire leads come in, there is a black jumper wire from one terminal to another, see photo. Not sure what to make of that as I haven't seen that on any other relays in the machine. Relay J is the "Ball Rack Advance Relay".

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    #12 7 years ago

    Here are the bottom parts of the schematics. Hopefully someone can help get me started in figuring out my machine problem. Thank you, JC.

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    #13 7 years ago

    I think the jumper on the J relay is okay..
    Now, when you manually press in the N Relay
    (1 point), or M Relay (10 points) does it turn
    the score reel? If so, you'll want to check the
    EOS (End of Stroke) switches on the 1s, 10s, and
    100s score wheels. Those switches should be closed,
    and open when the coil energizes and the plunger is
    pull in. Many times I found those switches broken.
    If any are broken, that first should be fixed. Not
    saying that will fix the whole problem, but it's not
    a bad idea to first make sure all is good there.. (T)

    #14 7 years ago

    Thank you Mopar, I will try your suggestion next. Much appreciated, JC.

    #15 7 years ago

    Hi JC
    in post-7 You write "Pop Bumpers aren't working - Sling-Shots are dead". Can You move the Flipper-Bats ? Greetings Rolf

    #16 7 years ago

    Hi Rolf. Yes, the flippers work and I can play a game. Just no score given as well as the pop bumpers and sling shots not firing. Greetings, JC.

    #17 7 years ago

    Progress, I think. @mopar, I started a game, then manually pressed the N and M relays, and it turned the score reels. I continued with playing the game, and it was scoring points. Possibly the relays were stuck? Then I noticed that the lower left knocker (see photo) stayed energized and started humming. (As mentioned previously, the right pop bumper, once hit, stayed energized as well, but it releases when the game is over or machine is turned off). Then I shut the game down. About 10-15 minutes after the machine was turned off, the coil in question and the metal shaft remained hot to the touch. A family member noticed a burning smell, but I didn't, and I didn't notice any smoke.The ohm reading on the hot coil was 3.4, and the other coil in the photo read 3.3. That's as far as I got, but will get back at it this evening. It feels like we're getting somewhere. Thank you all for sticking with me on this one.

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    #18 7 years ago

    Hi JC +
    when I was writing post-3 (and showed there the JPG with switches on two different pins) I was suspecting*** "such switches controlling the connection to the many playfield stuff" - one or more are not good.
    Thanks for the clarification "post-16: Flipper-Bats DO actuate". And the flipper-bats are a main thing on the playfield --- and as they work: You have proven my suspecting***: WRONG
    Of course it would be interesting to see a JPG "like mine on post-3" --- but we do not need it as You have proven my suspecting "wrong". Greetings Rolf

    #19 7 years ago

    Hi Rolf. Thank you for your reply. I do have the schematics now, I'm just not sure what to look for next. I'll be taking a look this evening. Greetings, JC.

    #20 7 years ago

    Hi JC
    I write of something good for testing --- BUT DANGER !!!
    I like to use Jumper-Wires to guarantee "from HERE to THERE" IS CONNECTION.

    The first test is not very dangerous. Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord. Look in the pin - the transformer - see 25Volt-wire-color-red-yellow running to a fuse-holder (10 Amp Fuse).

    See on the transformer the 25Volt-Returning-Wire-color-BLACK ? It is the same wire-color-black You see on one side of the coil on almost any relay. See on the transformer the 25Volt-Returning-Wire-color-BLACK ? Are You 100% sure ?
    OK - then (pin is toggled off, main power cord is unplugged) establish a permanent jumper "Transformer-Lug-BLACK to "N-Relay-COIL-side-wire-BLACK-is-soldered-on". With this Jumper-Wire we guarantee "Return-Side HAS connection".
    Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - play so the N-Relay should pull in (making 10 ? or 100 points ? on the playfield) --- Are we lucky and You get the N-Relay working ? Then the fault must be in "what we have jumpered".

    No Luck --- it is getting dangerous - Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord !!!
    Look at The "25 Volt-10-Ampere-Fuse" - See the side of the fuse with wire-color-red-yellow coming from the transformer ? THIS SIDE IS FORBIDDEN - NEVER TOUCH, NEVER USE FOR A STARTING POINT FOR JUMPERING --- NEVER !!!
    The other side of the fuseholder has wire-color-red-white soldered-on. OK - then (pin is toggled off, main power cord is unplugged) clip-on a Jumper-Wire AT SIDE RED-WHITE and take the other end of the Jumper-Wire into the open - NOT touching metal.

    Take another Jumper-Wire (pin is toggled off, main power cord is unplugged) and clip-on at "COIL on N-Relay - side "not-Black" --- take the other end of the Jumper-Wire into the open - NOT touching metal.

    Beware - You will use Jumper-Wires with "Power, HOT" 25 VAC. NEVER touch the gator-clips of the Jumper-Wires !!! ONLY hold the insulated wire.

    OK - You are ready for the next test --- the very first jumper-wire on the returning side is still in the pin, You have two open ends of Jumper-Wires in the open - NOT touching metal.
    Plug-in, toggle-on, start a game --- NOW hold with one hand one Jumper-Wire at the insulated wire and hold the other Jumper-Wire at the insulated wire --- and it is getting interesting: Hold the two gator-clips together for a moment - question: Does the N-Relay fire ?

    Because the "pieces of schematics You have shown up to now" do not show the "N-Relay": In my JPG I show the Jumpering for testing "Hundreds-Score-Drum-Coil" ---- but You do testing the "Coil on N-Relay". Greetings Rolf

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    #21 7 years ago

    JC, you are showing progress, but vhen ever a coil is staying
    energized, you'll want to shut off the machine. You don't want your
    coils getting very hot..
    When you activated the pop bumper it stayed energized(?) When the
    pop bumper coil pulls in, it should break a set of contacts that are underneath
    the playfield near it's coil. You'll want to make sure that those contacts
    are breaking..
    Remember not to let any of the coils remain energized for more than a
    few seconds..

    #22 7 years ago

    Hi Rolf. Thank you. I have never used jumper wires before, but I have a friend that can help me with your suggestions this weekend. If I can't figure anything out this week, then I will try what you suggested. @mopar, as a rule, I always shut a machine off if a coil is overheating. It has probably been happening every time, but I'm usually in the front of the machine, and I haven't heard it buzzing before, as it is in the back behind the back glass/head of the machine. Last night, as I was working on the N and M relays located in the back is when I first noticed it. Probably because the locking pop bumper and another relay also buzzes, so I wasn't aware of what was happening in the back. I'll check the contacts on the pop bumper coil this evening and post what I find. Thanks again to both of you on this, it is really appreciated.

    #23 7 years ago

    The pop bumper contacts appear ok and all 3 react the same way when activated manually. Before I could research it further during a game, I started a game, scored 1 point, then the coil/knocker in the back mentioned above stayed energized and starting humming. So I shut it down immediately before it could get hot again. So the ball never hit the pop bumper before I shut it down. It looks like it's time to learn how to read schematics and determine what controls the coil that is humming.

    #24 7 years ago

    Hi JC
    the N-1-Point-Relay and the One-Point-Score-Drum in Your pin do not "talk together / work together". I show it on Buckaroo --- this works the same on Williams, Bally and Gottlieb-Pins.

    My "blue R" shows "stuff used when resetting". You then play - look at the green numbers - the Score-Motor is not turning - "1" therefore is closed --- the ball closes a switch "2" worth 1 point --- the (3) N-Relay pulls-in, actuates many switches - well, closes "4" and "3" stays pulling forever***.

    The "3" pulling-in also closes "11" - current flows to the Score-Drum "12" - the Drum fires - its plunger moves / travels. At end of travel the plunger opens "5" --- this cuts the connecting line for "3" - it let go and so opens "4" and "11" --- so "3" does not pull forever*** / "12" also let go and on the way back on the Score-Drum the plunger and a tooth on the plunger makes the Score-Drum step for "really making the point".

    Inspect Your Score-Drum - look as the plunger travels - it MUST open a switch (my "5"). Greetings Rolf

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    #25 7 years ago

    Just taking a stab at it, but check the operation of the tit relay and all it's switches. I once had a "Melody" that was stuck on tilt, but one of the switches on the tilt relay was closed, allowing power to the flippers. You could play it, but it wouldn't score.

    #26 7 years ago

    I think I have another problem now. I was manually hitting the score reel relays and scoring some points, then something started smoking so I turned the machine off immediately. Does anyone know if a stuck or dirty score reel could cause this? They reset fine at start up, but might need a complete break down and cleaning. And thank you @jrpinball. The tilt relay appeared ok, then this happened. And thank you @rolf, I'll post my schematic of the same area and see what you think.

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