(Topic ID: 183508)

Machine gunning slingshot

By aobrien5

4 years ago


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  • 61 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by jj44114
  • Topic is favorited by 5 Pinsiders

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There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 4 years ago

Bally Mystic.

Is there anything other than switch adjustments that could cause a slingshot to machine gun?

This has been a problem for a long time. It doesn't happen every time, but it's pretty often. Both sides.

I've replaced the old bent up switches, I've swapped the 2.5" rubber for a 3" and I've played with the switch gaps dozens of times. I've ensured that the stiff leaf is tight up against the rear leaf that it's assembled with.

Either I need a switch adjusting lesson or there's something else causing it.

#2 4 years ago

Post some clear top view pictures showing the switch gaps.

#3 4 years ago

Here you go.

IMAG1987 (resized).jpg

IMAG1986 (resized).jpg

#5 4 years ago

If you close the switch manually by pressing on the rubber, does it machine gun?

If so, check for cracked solder joints or loose wires on the coil's lugs.

#6 4 years ago

The rubbers look too loose to me so they're rebounding too much - I would go back to 2.5"

You can also try putting a piece of paper between one switch to stop it activating so you can see which one needs more gap adjustment.

#7 4 years ago

BTW, the leaf against the rubber needs to be hard up against it (I don't mean touching, I mean pushing against the rubber), otherwise the rubber will tend to fling the leaf backwards (towards switch closure) on return.

#8 4 years ago

Does this era of Bally have those small ceramic disc capacitors along the switches? Not sure if they could be a cause, but it might be worthwhile to rule them out by replacing them.

#9 4 years ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

Does this era of Bally have those small ceramic disc capacitors along the switches? Not sure if they could be a cause, but it might be worthwhile to rule them out by replacing them.

Are these slingshot switches part of the switch matrix?

#10 4 years ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

Does this era of Bally have those small ceramic disc capacitors along the switches?

The way Bally does things is they ignore switches that are "stuck closed" so shorted switch capacitors won't do this. Slingshots shouldn't have capacitors on the switches anyway

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Are these slingshot switches part of the switch matrix?

Yep, they're part of the switch matrix.

#11 4 years ago

Not sure if replacing the rubber with a bigger one would rule this out but sometimes they need a good stretching to make them not slingshot. (Stretching meaning minimally without ruining the rubber lol)

#12 4 years ago

I was dealing with a similar problem on both of my classic Stern machines (nearly identical to Bally's such as yours), and the solution was to gap the leaf switches for the slings a little further apart. I was so intent on making sure they were as sensitive as possible (and therefore gapped as close as i could)... It wasn't until a gapped them further apart that they finally stopped machine-gunning. They are still about as sensitive as i wanted anyway, too. Hopefully your solution is as easy as mine was. Took me a LONG time to finally reach the solution, too. I was ready to replace chips etc, but other pinsiders suggested it had to be the switches and they were right...

#13 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Slingshots shouldn't have capacitors on the switches anyway

Are you positive? No disrespect, but I'm almost certain they had little ceramic capacitors wired into some switches to artificially keep them closed a bit longer to the CPU had more time to "see" the switch closure. I remember my last Bally/Stern had them wired into the pop bumpers.

Op, just for clarification, check to see if you have capacitors wired into the sling switches. Cut a leg off to disconnect them from the circuit (as they're not really necessary), and see if your game's condition improves.

#14 4 years ago

I had a similar issue with Catacomb. My solution was purely mechanical. I swapped out the band with the next size smaller. The tighter band was thinner and ultimately further away from the switch and higher pressure on the band did not allow the band to slop back.
faz

#15 4 years ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

Quoted from Quench:

> Slingshots shouldn't have capacitors on the switches anyway

Are you positive? No disrespect, but I'm almost certain they had little ceramic capacitors wired into some switches to artificially keep them closed a bit longer to the CPU had more time to "see" the switch closure. I remember my last Bally/Stern had them wired into the pop bumpers.

Pop Bumpers: Yes
Slingshots: No
Mystic_FastReactCoilSwitches.jpg

#17 4 years ago

It does happen when I hit the rubber with my finger and I've tried isolating the switches with a piece of paper but it didn't help. I stare at the back leaf to see if I can see it moving when it's gunning and I really can't. I realize it's really fast though.

My slings DO have caps on them. That's how they were before I replaced the switches so that's how I put them back, with new caps.

I'll swap the rubbers back, clip the caps and make sure the front leaf is pressing on the rubber tight. It may be pretty straight since it's a new switch.

14893336797581260991112 (resized).jpg

#18 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Pop Bumpers: Yes
Slingshots: No

Noted!

Thanks, Quench for clearing that up. Sorry for any added confusion.

-Max

#19 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Pop Bumpers: Yes
Slingshots: No

Just curious, any idea why the pops get them but the slings don't?

Edit: seeing how clipping the caps helped OP, i imagine they aren't used on slings because they're more susceptible to brief (unintended) switch closures, due to the nature of their design. Glad OP got to the bottom of this!

#20 4 years ago

Ok, so it looks like it may have been a combination. I clipped the caps and replaced the rubbers. Left, which was worst, seems immediately fixed. Right, machine gunned nonstop until I grabbed the rubber. As soon as I gently placed the rubber, it started again. That took some switch adjustments and seems better now.

Thanks everyone. She's all ready to get beat up at MGC now.

#21 4 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

My slings DO have caps on them.

I had a feeling they would. My old Stern "Lectronamo" did, but I wasn't sure if they were installed factory, or if someone added them later.

Nice to see you found a resolution.

#22 4 years ago
Quoted from frunch:

Just curious, any idea why the pops get them but the slings don't?

Not sure actually, maybe to reduce the indirect edge sensitivity of the slingshots since they're a greater hazard for outlane ball loss.

I don't have an early Stern machine handy at the moment, but a few Stern schematics I've looked at don't even show capacitors on the Pop Bumpers, yet some schems show caps on drop targets?? although the early solid state Stern manuals are a bit all over the place.

Essentially you'll see caps spec'd on switches that the ball hits at high speed like standup targets, rollover buttons, etc. which are important for game play. Capacitors extend the time of switch closures so the MPU can better sense them when it scans through the switch matrix.

Glad to hear the OP has resolved the problem!

#23 4 years ago

Alright, so when the slings hit on this game it's supposed to switch between eye and pyramid. It's not always doing it now. It seems if the ball hits low on the sling, it'll fire, but not switch "modes." This is one of those things that may have always happened but was harder to tell because of the machine gunning.

#24 4 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Alright, so when the slings hit on this game it's supposed to switch between eye and pyramid.

Ok, please ignore what I showed on the switch schematic about the caps not being on the slingshot switches.
Can you re-install the caps and report back on the intermittent mode change issue.

Since you've reinstalled the tighter rubbers and adjusted the switch gaps, that may have fixed the original machine gunning problem. Don't forget to make sure the leaf touching the rubber is hard up against it.

#25 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Ok, please ignore what I showed on the switch schematic about the caps not being on the slingshot switches.
Can you re-install the caps and report back on the intermittent mode change issue.
Since you've reinstalled the tighter rubbers and adjusted the switch gaps, that may have fixed the original machine gunning problem. Don't forget to make sure the leaf touching the rubber is hard up against it.

I did check my manual and it's the same as the one you pictured. Shows no caps on the slings. I can try though.

#26 4 years ago

I put the cap back inline with an alligator clip on the left side and it's machine gunning again. Mode is switching though! Right side not machine gunning and mode skipping sometimes.

Edit: I can absolutely reproduce this. Add the cap and a gentle bounce against the lower part of the sling machine guns. Remove the cap and the same bounce activates the sling but not the sound or mode switch.

#27 4 years ago

What happens if you remove the rubber and trip the switch with your finger? Does it machine gun?

Quoted from Quench:

BTW, the leaf against the rubber needs to be hard up against it (I don't mean touching, I mean pushing against the rubber), otherwise the rubber will tend to fling the leaf backwards (towards switch closure) on return.

This is absolutely correct. Remove the rubber, bend the outer leaves outward quite a bit, put the rubber back on. Adjust the gap with the inner leaves only. This way, when the sling activates, the outer blades will move outward with the rubber and will not vibrate against the inner blades.

Quoted from Quench:

I don't have an early Stern machine handy at the moment, but a few Stern schematics I've looked at don't even show capacitors on the Pop Bumpers, yet some schems show caps on drop targets?? although the early solid state Stern manuals are a bit all over the place.

I haven't found any classic Sterns with caps on the pops. I can only assume that because they clocked at 2MHz they figured they would catch the switch closures. My QS, with clearcoated playfield, is so fast in the pops that I noticed it missed some switch closures. I added caps to my pops and they've been great ever since.

Quoted from aobrien5:

Alright, so when the slings hit on this game it's supposed to switch between eye and pyramid. It's not always doing it now. It seems if the ball hits low on the sling, it'll fire, but not switch "modes." This is one of those things that may have always happened but was harder to tell because of the machine gunning.

When the caps were clipped and it didn't switch between eye and pyramid, did it score points? (Probably not.) I think the cure here may be to clip the caps, bend the outer leaves out and tighten the gap with the inner leaves. This will give longer switch closure time between the time the ball first makes contact with the rubber and the time it's pushed away by the arm.

#28 4 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

When the caps were clipped and it didn't switch between eye and pyramid, did it score sling points?

It did not.

#29 4 years ago

Oh good. I edited my post above.

#30 4 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

Oh good. I edited my post above.

Thanks. I'll try again and report back.

#31 4 years ago

It may be improved a little now, but it's still not gone. Maybe I'll just offer up some beer to whoever we wants to give me a lesson and fix it at MGC.

The machine gunning is gone, so that's a definite improvement.

#32 4 years ago

I put a cap on a slingshot switch on a machine and on the rare occasion (about one in 20 hits) it will double sling. You were using a 0.047uf capacitor and not a higher value?

#33 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

I put a cap on a slingshot switch on a machine and on the rare occasion (about one in 20 hits) it will double sling. You were using a 0.047uf capacitor and not a higher value?

No, that's the one I'm using. I just tried jumping the cap back in with my new switch adjustments and it machine gunned again.

#34 4 years ago

You could try a smaller value cap too, like 0.01uf. Maybe that would be enough to read the switch closure without causing the machine gunning.

#35 4 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

You could try a smaller value cap too, like 0.01uf. Maybe that would be enough to read the switch closure without causing the machine gunning.

I doubt I have any of those on hand, so I'll add some to my next order, if I can't find any.

#36 4 years ago
Quoted from dothedoo:

You could try a smaller value cap too, like 0.01uf.

I tried other capacitor values earlier when trying the 0.047uf cap.
0.022uf still double slingshotted but was more rare.
0.01uf didn't double slingshot but on the very rare occasion missed scoring (it is better than no cap though which misses scoring a little more often on very fast ball hits).

The OP might get different results but it doesn't look like lowering the cap value will solve this.

#37 4 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

I tried other capacitor values earlier when trying the 0.047uf cap.
0.022uf still double slingshotted but was more rare.
0.01uf didn't double slingshot but on the very rare occasion missed scoring (it is better than no cap though which misses scoring a little more often on very fast ball hits).
The OP might get different results but it doesn't look like lowering the cap value will solve this.

Do you think it's just switch adjustments to solve it, then?

#38 4 years ago

Forget the cap - that isn't your issue.

Your pictures show the switch leaf hard against the rubber. It should be about 1/4" away from the rubber AT LEAST - probably more.

Then, adjust the switch accordingly.

When the leaf is against the rubber, as in your picture, the switch never gets a chance to rest because the rubber is "springy" and so it will continue to trigger. When the ball belts the rubber you would be surprised how far the rubber deflects.

#39 4 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

Forget the cap - that isn't your issue.
Your pictures show the switch leaf hard against the rubber. It should be about 1/4" away from the rubber AT LEAST - probably more.
Then, adjust the switch accordingly.
When the leaf is against the rubber, as in your picture, the switch never gets a chance to rest because the rubber is "springy" and so it will continue to trigger. When the ball belts the rubber you would be surprised how far the rubber deflects.

Now that's the opposite advice from others in here saying it should be adjusted tight against the rubber. At this point, I'm willing to try it, but I'm going to have to pull my switches to straighten them out!

2 months later
#40 4 years ago

I might resurrect this thread as I have a Flight 2000 that all four of my slings are machine gunning......it's painful. I don't spend much time on the pins in the summer but it's shitty, cold and raining outside, it's pin repair day

#41 4 years ago

Good luck! I never got mine quite right.

#42 4 years ago

Do these slings fire correctly in switch test? Have you changed out the coil diodes for the sling coils?

#43 4 years ago

Have you repined the connectors on this game?

#44 4 years ago

Guys check my earlier post. This is not rocket science.

We test this all the time in the factory. Move the switches away from the rubber by a good margin.

Go and have a look at any brand new (never played) machine if you doubt me.

#45 4 years ago

Ok simple test to see if being caused by sling rubber. Seeing how issue is duplicates easily just pull sling rubber back once it starts. Now nothing is contacting switch. Is it still firing?

I don't work on new pins. Just old Bally's and Sterns. My humble opinion is that his sling rubber looks good. They should be tight against the outside switch. I gap them about 1/8 and make sure the short side of the leaf has the helper spring firmly against the back. I have three of these games right now and I can go look at all of them, set just as above, and have no machine gun firing of anything. My experience is that bad connectors, bad capacitors, bad diode, and bad grounds cause this kind of issue. My humble guess is you have two issues working together against you. Someone installed the capacitor on the switch to get the switch to light up hotter than it needed to be for some reason? Coupled with a bad connection to MPU, connector, or loose solder connections in switch matrix.

#46 4 years ago
Quoted from JT-Pinball:

Ok simple test to see if being caused by sling rubber. Seeing how issue is duplicates easily just pull sling rubber back once it starts. Now nothing is contacting switch. Is it still firing?
I don't work on new pins. Just old Bally's and Sterns. My humble opinion is that his sling rubber looks good. They should be tight against the outside switch. I gap them about 1/8 and make sure the short side of the leaf has the helper spring firmly against the back. I have three of these games right now and I can go look at all of them, set just as above, and have no machine gun firing of anything. My experience is that bad connectors, bad capacitors, bad diode, and bad grounds cause this kind of issue. My humble guess is you have two issues working together against you. Someone installed the capacitor on the switch to get the switch to light up hotter than it needed to be for some reason? Coupled with a bad connection to MPU, connector, or loose solder connections in switch matrix.

Thanks for your input. It has confirmed to me that I need to include the exact way of adjusting these switches on a Homepin machine. Ours certainly do not touch the rubber, not by a long shot (pun intended LOL).

Could be different for older machines, I don't remember. Fact is, it is 95% likely that switch adjustment of some sort is most likely the issue here. You could be spot on about the helper plate - many don't realise what it is for or understand how to bend it. More fodder for our manual, again thankyou.

#47 4 years ago

I struggled with the slings on both my Seawitch and Nine Ball, and in the end it all came down to adjusting the switches correctly. The outer leaf should lean on the rubber ring, and the inner leaf needs to be held stable by the 'helper' leaf next to it (the shorter leaf with no contact on it).

Basically, you want to make sure the switch leaves don't vibrate too much--which can cause the sling coil to machine-gun. It will take lots of trial and error to get them working right, but with patience and persistence you'll get it. As also mentioned above, make sure the slingshot switches do *not* have any capacitors on them. They're good for pop bumpers, but they'll only add to this problem on slingshots.

If you need further explanation I can take some pics tomorrow. Took me many months to finally figure out this issue on my games. I was convinced it was a driver board issue, but it was in fact just a matter of *properly* adjusting the switches for the slings. You'll get there!

#48 4 years ago
Quoted from Homepin:

You could be spot on about the helper plate - many don't realise what it is for or understand how to bend it. More fodder for our manual, again thankyou.

Let's see what you'll be writing about that. I'll read all I can at this point.

Quoted from frunch:

As also mentioned above, make sure the slingshot switches do *not* have any capacitors on them.

Can you explain to me why my game doesn't work right without them, then? (Or with them, for that matter)

With caps, along machine guns, but I get sound and mode switch with every hit.

Without caps, sling does not machine gun and I miss about 25% of sounds and mode swaps.

#49 4 years ago
Quoted from aobrien5:

Can you explain to me why my game doesn't work right without them, then? (Or with them, for that matter)
With caps, along machine guns, but I get sound and mode switch with every hit.
Without caps, sling does not machine gun and I miss about 25% of sounds and mode swaps.

I wish i could.

However, let's go over the basics:

What shape are the slingshot switches in? Do they have gold-flashed contacts? Have you cleaned them, and if so how did you?

Are the contacts on the slingshot switches installed correctly? All 3 classic Stern's i own had one of the contacts incorrectly installed on the slingshot switches--all 4 switches on each game had one contact that was installed backwards. By that i mean the face of one contact was facing the tiny nub (the back) of the other contact. Can you take a couple close-ups of your slingshot switches? I'm thinking that might be your issue.

Edit: i found the overhead pic of the switches above, looks like the contacts are facing correctly. But to be sure, op, please post pics of both pairs of switches.

Another thought too: is there any switches underneath the playfield that are part of the slingshot assembly? I know I've seen games that will have a switch that actuates from the motion of the slingshot plunger moving into the coil. Like, the upright switches poking up through the playfield will activate the slingshot, but a separate switch under the pf will handle the scoring. It's a shot in the dark, but figured I'd ask.

#50 4 years ago

I'll snag a few snapshots of mine, i've spent considerable time on the gap, straightening out the switches and making sure the "helper plate" is in nice order. Someone back in the day did a lot of bending a screwing around with the switches

There are 61 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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