(Topic ID: 217271)

Lw3 vuk coil locked help needed

By Chochi_ca

5 years ago


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You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider wayout440.
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#12 5 years ago

Double check those coil diodes...
Very important.

I would then disconnect one side of coil wire to prevent blowing out the drive transistor, and put the game in coil test. Then use DMM, oscilloscope, or logic probe to see what is up at CPU CN 12-8. If it is pulsing with coil test, then the problem is downstream. If it is just sitting there, the problem is upstream.

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from CanadianGamer:

Is there any way a wire on that coil could be shorting against something metal?

Quick check for that: Unplug J8 PPB and turn on the power.

#16 5 years ago

Slow down, take a deep breath. One thing at a time. You replaced a bunch of stuff at once without troubleshooting, so we need to back up a bit.
Remove the vio-yel wire from the laser kick coil for now and ignore that. Focus on the VUK problem.

and ...can you explain this comment:

Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Still I lights up.

When you put your meter on 12-8, set to DCV. Enter diagnostics, coil test mode. Select solenoid #15 (VUK). This pulses the coil circuit, report back if the meter voltage is pulsing or not.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Some of the coil tests r firing two coils at a time?

Sounds like you have upper level logic issues, something wrong further upstream than output circuit/driving transistors. Could be a bad PIA or something else that would be causing that. Perhaps ICs were damaged by coil backlash from a bad diode. Lots of possibilities.

Just because the questions were not asked earlier:
Did the game ever work in your possession? (meaning: Did these problems just suddenly crop up?....or has the game never worked since you got it?)
Was there some kind of work you or someone else did leading up to and just prior to the game failing?
Any signs of corrosion damage or battery leakage?
Board rework?
Can you post pictures?

Another possible venue to explore is to document which coils are coming on simultaneously - provided they are consistent and not random. Then we might be able to zero in on a particular PIA, IC or some other common factor.

#25 5 years ago

It looks like your left/right relay is not switching.

First Test the Solenoid L/R Select Relay!
When the solenoid A/C select relay is not working correctly, there can be all kinds of coil problems. A malfunctioning L/R relay, if stuck on or off, won't give any power to either the coils or flashlamps. If the relay is constantly energized (stuck on bank "R"), it's probably because it's driver transistor Q29 is shorted on.

On most DataEast/Sega games, the "L" (or "A") bank was for coils, and the "R" (or "B") bank is for flashlamps. But on games from Time Machine to the Simpsons, this logic was reversed. In these games the "L" bank was used for flashlamps (instead of coils), and the "R" bank was used for coils (instead of flashlamps). Keep this in mind when diagnosing problems.

The first thing to do is to test the solenoid L/R select relay. Turn the game on, and enter diagnostics (entering diagnostics should de-energize the L/R relay; on some games the L/R relay will stay energized after finishing a game because of an after-game flasher light show). Take an alligator test wire and connect it to the metal tab on transistor Q29. Then with the game on and in attract or diagnostic mode, touch the other end of the alligator clip to the ground strap in the backbox (WWF Royal Rumble and later, make sure the coin door is closed). The L/R select relay on the PPB board should click "on and off"; it will click on when the transistor is grounded, and off when not.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Ok have tested the method above. With my alligator on the metal tab of q29 and the other end grounded the relay is opening and closing only some of the times that I ground it. I tested q29 and the pre transistor and both test good. Is the relay sticking? Or is it the signal that is not telling it to open/close?

it should open/close every time you ground it.

All DataEast/Sega games have a minimum of three relays in the backbox. These relays are a source of common problems on these games. Most common is cold solder joints where the relay is soldered to the circuit board. The relays themselves can also fail however. These relays really aren't repairable; just replace them. Often the contacts on the relay switches will burn together so the relay cannot do its job.

PPB/MRB board relay K1: this relay controls the solenoid L/R select circuit, and is controlled by CPU transistor Q29 (TIP122). It is extremely common for this relay to have cold solder joints! If the L/R (or A/B) select coils or flashlamps do not work, this relay should be checked. This relay is a 24 vdc 10 amp relay with two DPDT switches. There are a total of 8 solder points on this relay; two connect to the winding of the relay coil (to turn the relay on and off). The other six contacts (two distinct sets of three contact DPDT switches) are the relay switches. Source number FRL264 P024/02CK, Sega part 190-5002-00.

http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index1.htm

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

I noticed All the metal tabs for the 5 transistors q1-q5 on the ppb board short to ground. Is this normal?

Yes, pin 2 (collector) has electrical continuity to the mounting tab on a TIP36C

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

I also noticed when I unplug cn12-8 the flashers stop working during “flasher test” it only runs actuating coils.

Probably some other stuff stops working as well.

Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Powered up and it’s burning away at q3 still(transistor was bad before I tested already) does that matter? Only have a couple transistors left. So I diconnected the coil again. I tried to connect my vuk coil again to. Upon power up it still locks up.

Eeek. You really shouldn't repeatedly power up a game with shorted transistors, and if you know a driver transistor is shorted don't connect it back up - you risk damaging the coil since it was designed to be on momentarily. Best to removed the damaged components first, so you don't cause additional damage. Troubleshoot and find out what else is wrong upstream first. A coil drive transistor is just wired as a "dumb switch" in pinball - it has to be "told" what to do by an electrical state change on its input.

#33 5 years ago

Are you sure that is a 7406? I think it is a 7408 quad AND gate

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

I checked all 4 of the 7408 chips above the drive transistors. All the test points read around .160v dc

To check the gates, you should be in coil test mode. Each gate has two inputs. There are four gates on each 7408 IC. One input to each gate is a coil trigger signal, and the other is blanking. Blanking must be logic high, then when a high trigger pulse occurs on the other gate input, the output of that gate pulses high.

If you measure .160 VDC. (Logic low) on the blanking inputs in coil test, the coils would not work.

7408 (resized).jpg7408 (resized).jpg

#39 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Appreciate the description. I found the correct legs for the vuk. One leg has a 5vdc supply. The other two when coil is pulsed through coil test maxes out at .8vdc. I found the correct legs for a working coil and it was reading almost 5vdc when pulsed. Does that mean my 7408 needs to b replaced? That would cause my coil to b locked on? Thought it just wouldn’t cycle?

Hmmm. Might be more than one problem. Q29 has a predriver Q21, that could be bad and locked on, or something else in the vincinity, so you might want to look at that. It might be that Q21 has failed and is holding the gate output low at its input - but keeping a high on the base to Q29 resulting in the locked on condition. Some will advise that a predriver transistor should be replaced when a driver transistor is replaced.
The gate that is not functioning: are you saying that A (which we will call the blanking signal) is 5VDC and on B when it pulses to 5VDC, you do not get a pulsed high output at AB? If so, then the gate is probably failed and needs replaced.

andgate (resized).pngandgate (resized).png
#41 5 years ago

The PIAs will do the bulk of the controlling, bit that is not where I would start. If you roll through the coil tests more than once, verify that the same set of coils work or don't work repeatedly. If they change imtermittently, that's more difficult to resolve.
Your LR relay appears to be functioning properly from the results you posted.
I would pick one problem at a time to solve,
Knowing the transistors themselves are ok is fine, but that's a fraction of what happens to make the coils work. One method is to pick a working coil circuit to compare measurements of those signals with the failed circuit.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

It’s def the same coils cycled it a few times over.

OK, consistent is a little bit easier to deal with...but still requires a lot of patience.

Quoted from Chochi_ca:

1l outhole...nothing
1r flash.... working

Starting at the top pf your list, what does this tell you? These L/R relay multiplexes the outhole coil with this flasher to utilize the same transistor.
so:
The outhole drive transistor and its upstream circuit are good.
The L/R relay works

Now I would start with basic coil non functional checks. Is the outhole coil getting solenoid DC power to it? The L/R relay is normally closed until it is energized to operate the R side flasher, so in coil test you should be able to see DC voltage sitting on the outhole coil tabs. If it is there, you should be able to briefly short the coil tab to make sure the coil fires and the coil itself is good. Then check at CPU by grounding tab briefly on Q46 solenoid driver. If the coil doesn't fire, you have a continuity problem to track down and usually that is a bad connector Sometimes you'll find a problem like this will also help to identify others.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

in coil test you should be able to see DC voltage sitting on the outhole coil tabs. If it is there, you should be able to briefly short the coil tab to make sure the coil fires and the coil itself is good.

meant to say short trigger side tab

#48 5 years ago

It could be the 7408, but also check the pull up resistor pack on the output. I think its RA7. That is another possibility. Its not uncommon for those to fail.

The coil voltages appear ok. It is not unusual for the variance you are seeing.

3 weeks later
#52 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Replaced my 7408 chip. Still not gettin enough voltage on my high/low inputs for the vuk gate?

Do you mean high/low inputs to the 7408? If so, check the outputs of 5F 6821 PIA, that is all there is before the 7408. If that's not what you mean, I am not clear about your question.

2 weeks later
#54 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

So back at it again. I replaced the 5f 6821 pia. But while I was desoldering the old chip I burnt away the trace points for pin 38 and pin 2. I can’t c the traces on the board to c where they go? Can someone please tell me what points they go to from there. I am unable to read the print. Now upon start up my machine does not boot properly.

Ugh. Looking at the schematics, you should be able to jumper pin 5f pin 38 to 6821 11D pin 38, both of these are IRQA low signals. Looks like pin 2 is not used, so you should be ok with leaving that be.

#57 5 years ago

Pin 23 signal name "2100" runs from LS139 8E pin 5 (CPU sheet 1 of 4, right side of page about halfway down)
Pin 19 signal name "EN" runs to 7402 12B pin 8 (CPU sheet 1 of 4, signal enters about halfway down on the left, ends up about the middle of the page)

#59 5 years ago

Yes, pins 37 & 38 of both PIAs should have continuity to each other, and all four pins (37 & 38 of each PIA) should have continuity to LS08 7E pin 9.

#62 5 years ago

*most likely* something went wrong with the replacement.
Check and solder all vias on both top and bottom. Make sure there are no shorts between IC legs unless there are intentional traces between them.

Was this a new IC? Not something used that could be questionable. Keep in mind that new IC can be DOA ( a slim chance, but it happens). ICs can also be damaged by ESD, excessive heat from soldering, or mechanical stresses to the legs.

If it wasn't any of those, then the failure is coincidence, and you'll have to troubleshoot it as a new problem.

1 week later
#64 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

So one last attempt. Can someone please tell me what pins on the 5f 6821 chip that are not directly on that numbered print where they are coming from or goin? I’m not grasping how to read 1-12f e line?(though it would mean print 1.... 12f location on that print?) all similar pins that read like that to. If this fails I’m gonna buy a new rottendog mpu

The "1" on the 1 -12f designation refers to CPU schematic sheet number 1 (there are 4 pages to the CPU schematic, this would mean page 1 of 4). The "12f" refers to the coordinates on the page to find that signal (follow the numbers across and the letter down). Signal "E" comes from LS244 IC 6D, pin 3 located in the middle of page one.

Screenshot_2018-07-22-12-20-08~2 (resized).pngScreenshot_2018-07-22-12-20-08~2 (resized).png
#67 5 years ago

All reset low signals (that's what the long line over the word reset means) come from the same place, they all come from the reset generator/power monitor IC: IC1 PST518. This signal will be high during game operation, if it is stuck low permanently the system will not run. Same thing if it is toggling (bouncing). This signal feeds main processor and all the PIAs.

#69 5 years ago

possibly....depending on the severity of corrosion, battery leakage not only has to
be neutralized, but also affected components removed, traces sanded to bare copper, and new components installed, any non-continuous traces must be repaired. Battery alkaline damage is a cancer of printed circuit boards.

1 month later
#72 5 years ago
Quoted from Chochi_ca:

Update! My machine is working now. Installed a new rottendog mpu board. Fixed my locked vuk. But still had some other issues. Found the solder flux I was using must b conductive? After cleaning away the leftover flux with alcohol and carbon deposits from board burning its playing flawless now. Expensive lesson learned.... ouch. Thanx for app the advice in the post.

Congrats on getting it going
Which flux/solder were you using? Typically we don't see problems from flux except for very high frequency circuits where water soluble flux was used, not cleaned properly, and has sit for some time on the board.

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