F-14 Tomcat
Williams, 1987Tackling the next problem on my F-14 Tomcat, low volume issue. With the volume turned up to maximum the sound is all still very low. Both the speech and Music. All sounds play in test mode, none are missing, volume is just much lower than normal. All speakers have sound.
I think my first step will be to pull the sound board and look for any cold solder joints unless anyone else can point me in a better direction. Clays guide did not have much advice on this, any help appreciated.
Quoted from GListOverflow:Does the volume get louder and softer when you adjust the pot, just not louder enough?
Yes, it will go up and down when I adjust the pot but when turned fully up it is just not loud enough. I know these are normally louder, had people over today and with just a couple of people talking and a Mata Hari going you could barely hear it.
It could be an issue with the pot, you can spray some electrical cleaner into the pot while you are turning it back and forth. Repeat this a couple times. That would be the easiest step. You may have to try and force the cleaner in around the shaft with a spray tube on the nozzle.
Do not do this with the pin on.
I have this issue intermittently on my F14. Mine is usually fixed by just messing with the volume nob and a few power cycles. Hasnt happened in a while so i just left the volume on and dont mess with it much now.
Start with the pot, as others have said. Next check your speaker and wiring there (have you tried a known good speaker?) If nothing is wrong with the potentiometer or speaker move to reseating/checking the connectors that run the audio stream in and out of the audio board (check all audio board connectors) and MPU (IJ15 & IJ16)
Beyond that you will need to check the audio amplifying section on the MPU (pg. 57a of the schematic) If nothing obvious visually like a burnt, broken component the easist way to check this section is with an oscilloscope.
Want to add I pulled off the sound board to look for cold solder joints and saw none, did not check all the traces though. Going to try these other suggestions first.
Quoted from absocountry2:It could be an issue with the pot, you can spray some electrical cleaner into the pot while you are turning it back and forth. Repeat this a couple times.
I will pick some up today and try this first.
Quoted from Tweedlefuzz:I have this issue intermittently on my F14. Mine is usually fixed by just messing with the volume nob and a few power cycles. Hasnt happened in a while so i just left the volume on and dont mess with it much now.
I have messed with the volume knob a bunch and turned it off and on multiple times now, wish it was as simple as yours.
Quoted from wayout440:Start with the pot, as others have said. Next check your speaker and wiring there (have you tried a known good speaker?) If nothing is wrong with the potentiometer or speaker move to reseating/checking the connectors that run the audio stream in and out of the audio board (check all audio board connectors) and MPU (IJ15 & IJ16)
Beyond that you will need to check the audio amplifying section on the MPU (pg. 57a of the schematic) If nothing obvious visually like a burnt, broken component the easist way to check this section is with an oscilloscope.
I swapped out a stereo speaker that I knew was good for the speaker down in the cab and the volume was the same. not the same size speaker mind you, but figured it was worth a try. I have since put back the speaker it came with. I will check and reseat all of those connectors. I dont think I have checked the ones on the MPU so that is helpful. Have never used an oscilloscope and dont have one, sounds expensive but if all else fails I will have to get one.
Quoted from vid1900:Check that the correct ohm (4 ohm) speaker is installed
I will double check that tonight.
Thanks everyone, keep any suggestions coming. At work now so i will look into it more tonight.
Damn, busy forum nowadays, already fell off the first page. Bumping up for confirmation on electrical cleaner, want to pick some up on my way home.
I ended up picking this one up as it seemed the safest. Going to be a couple of hours before I use it so if anyone thinks this is the wrong stuff let me know and I will return it
Ok reporting back. I tried the electrical cleaner on the Pot and that did not work. Reseated all connectors on sound board and connectors IJ14 and IJ15 with no luck. Double checked the speaker size like Vid suggested and it is 4 ohm 10W which should be fine.
Kinda at a loss here. Would replacing the pot help?
I'm far from an expert, but I've seen pots on all sorts of other things go bad and as cheap as they are, I'd say it would be smart move to replace. Not sure if you have one of those old dinosaurs, analog meter, but I used to check pots (without a resistor like these have mind you) on car stuff to trouble shoot. Not sure if this will apply here though. Can do it with a digital, but the sweep of analog makes it easier for me anyway.
Please keep us updated on the solution!
Thanks I will, they are less than 5 bucks at the radioshack so I think I will just buy one and see how it goes. Do you usually use a 5k ohm pot with a system 11? My subwoofer like I said is 4ohm 10W.
Bumping this up for additional info, read in another thread with a sound issue that you would use a 5k pot, but looking at the manual it says 100k pot, any thoughts?
Quoted from practicalsteve:Bumping this up for additional info, read in another thread with a sound issue that you would use a 5k pot, but looking at the manual it says 100k pot, any thoughts?
This is my first time looking at F-14 but it looks like there are two pots for this game. One is on the sound board and likely controls only a portion of the sounds. This is the 100K pot you found in the manual. The second part is the volume knob in the cabinet, and I can't find a value referenced in either the F-14 or the Rollergames manuals. You may have to measure it yourself, but a 0-5K or 0-10K pot should be fine.
Quoted from rancegt:This is my first time looking at F-14 but it looks like there are two pots for this game. One is on the sound board and likely controls only a portion of the sounds. This is the 100K pot you found in the manual. The second part is the volume knob in the cabinet, and I can't find a value referenced in either the F-14 or the Rollergames manuals. You may have to measure it yourself, but a 0-5K or 0-10K pot should be fine.
Thanks for the reply, I also noted in the manual that it shows a pot on the sound board, but there is not one there, I looked for a long time and it just isn't. Makes me wonder if I dont have the original sound board in here. Someone at some point put in a rotten dog power board so it is a possibility. I think I will pick up a 10k pot from radioshack and swap out the one in my cab and see if that helps since I am at a loss otherwise.
Ok, so I removed the old pot and installed a new 10k one and got the same results. Volume but not still not loud enough. I could use some help with the pics below, since I have never worked on a system 11 I need to know if this is normal or something someone possibly hacked. In the first pic with the new pot you can see that it is not three wires but one gray wire that holds a red, black and silver wire. Is this normal? If it is, is it wired correctly? Please note the second pic where you can see the grey wire going into the sound board. If the grey wire is correct, is it wired correctly? The third pic is a kinda blurry one of my whole sound board, I know its blurry but does it look totally wrong to you? In my manual it shows another pot on the actual sound board. It shows it as being right where that white stickers with all the number is. Did someone do a sound board swap that is incorrect?
Thanks in advance.
i think your looking in the wrong area for your problem
If there is 2-3 speakers installed or 2 and some kind of siren?
1-2 up top and 1 under the playfield in the cabinet
check with a volt-ohm meter all speakers
my best answer is a blown/worn speaker
one of the 3 speakers is showing 0 ohms or a short or pinched wire
first guess is that right side speaker? siren in the backglass box.
they can still work but still be shorted or blown
disconect 1 speaker at a time and check ohm's and test system
dont reconect speaker till you have tried all 3 seperately
check for a pinched speaker wire going to metal in the back cabinet
sometimes they can be pinched to ground when someone removes the display.
colors are
black/yellow and black out of 11J9
also go thru the program settings and the other adjustable volume is the connector
i think the manual speaks of is the analog wires going from 1J16 main cpu to 11J1 of the sound board
also check the 20 or so pin ribbon cable for a kink or pinch
also if al this fails, reset back to factory in the main menu and maybe pull the batteries and reset.
Quoted from Ekacboon:i think your looking in the wrong area for your problem
If there is 2-3 speakers installed or 2 and some kind of siren?
1-2 up top and 1 under the playfield in the cabinet
check with a volt-ohm meter all speakers
my best answer is a blown/worn speaker
one of the 3 speakers is showing 0 ohms or a short or pinched wire
first guess is that right side speaker? siren in the backglass box.
they can still work but still be shorted or blown
disconect 1 speaker at a time and check ohm's and test system
dont reconect speaker till you have tried all 3 seperately
check for a pinched speaker wire going to metal in the back cabinet
sometimes they can be pinched to ground when someone removes the display.
colors are
black/yellow and black out of 11J9
also go thru the program settings and the other adjustable volume is the connector
i think the manual speaks of is the analog wires going from 1J16 main cpu to 11J1 of the sound boardalso check the 20 or so pin ribbon cable for a kink or pinch
also if al this fails, reset back to factory in the main menu and maybe pull the batteries and reset.
Thank you very much! Gave up tonight but will try all this tomorrow.
Quoted from donjagra:Dry caps.
Quoted from cfh:Replace capacitor C9 on the sound board (10mfd electrolytic). Cap c34 (1mfd) would be the next one to replace if C9 doesn't work.
Thank you VERY much.
Quoted from cfh:Replace capacitor C9 on the sound board (10mfd electrolytic). Cap c34 (1mfd) would be the next one to replace if C9 doesn't work.
Hey Clay, I know you know about 1000 times more than me so if I may ask you two more quick questions. I have confirmed that someone at some point has put in a different soundboard than the one in the manual. Would you still recommend changing Capacitor C9? Is that like a universal thing and it would not matter if it is a different sound board?
Also any recommendations on where to buy capacitors? Have not bought any before.
Thanks in advance, love your pinball ninja webzine.
By comparing values I see that Clay was referring to the original F-14 board. The board you have has the same circuit, but the capacitors are C11 (1mfd, electrolytic, 63V), and C17 (10mfd, electrolytic, 20V).
These capacitors should be available at Radio Shack or a local electronics supply shop. Online, Great Plains Electronics works hard to support the pinball hobby. With capacitors voltage is a rating, not a property, so you can increase the voltage rating until the physical size becomes a problem. If you can't find the voltage spec'd, step up to the next voltage that you can find.
i've used lesser voltages too. just get what Rat Shack has and try it. If the volume changes, then you're good, and you can micro-manage the cap voltages later.
The C9 cap is in direct line with the audio output from the 1458 chips. It is the one cap that likes to fail the most. since it's in direct line with the output volume from the 1458 pre-amps, any problem with that cap will translate to low volume. The C34 cap is also in direct line, but it just doesn't seem to fail as much.
Aside from those two caps, the 1458 chips also like to have problems. But that's a lot more complicated to replace (there's two of them, 8 pins each), and not readily available at the usual suspect places (like Rat Shack.) So go with the C9 cap first, then the C34 cap. (Also the C9 cap fails way more than the 1458 chips too.)
Thank you both so much. I am still learning and have a lot more to learn, this will be super helpful. I do tend to overthink things especially when trying them for the first time. So I will sack up take your advice and just do it. I will report back when I get a chance to replace those caps.
Also I agree that Great plains is an excellent resource, going to try ratshack this time though since its close by.
Radioshak did not have what I needed so I went ahead and ordered from great plains (may take a couple of days but I would rather give him my money anyway.) I will report back once I try out the new cap.
Quoted from cfh:Rat shack used to sell an electrolytic cap assortment pack that would certainly have a 10mfd and 1mfd cap in that pack, for like $5.
Radio Shack should rename themselves to Cell Phone Shanty. 
Unfortunately they appear to be in a death spiral.
Quoted from cfh:Rat shack used to sell an electrolytic cap assortment pack that would certainly have a 10mfd and 1mfd cap in that pack, for like $5. i don't know if they still have that though.
Quoted from Dewey68:Radio Shack should rename themselves to Cell Phone Shanty. Unfortunately they appear to be in a death spiral.
Yeah, the ones around here are much more concerned with selling you a new phone. Every time I go in the ask me if I am happy with my cell phone provider and give me a whole spiel. Really annoying.
Ok, Here is the update.
I replaced C11 (1mfd, electrolytic, 63V), and C17 (10mfd, electrolytic, 20V) according to what Rancegt said. I have the same results. low volume, no changes, exactly the same.
I have not replaced C9 (10mfd electrolytic) and C34 (1mfd) as CFH suggested. I believe CFH was giving advice for an original F-14 tomcat board. When you look at the schematics for the F-14 sound board in the manual everything he says matches up. However I have figured out that my sound board is not original but is an 11581-554 such as you would find in Rollergames. when I look at those schematics it calls for completely different caps at C9 and C34. Rancegt suggested that C11 and C17 are the same on my board and that is why I replaced those.
Is there a way to test the two caps I replaced with my meter to make sure they are soldered correctly?
Should I be checking this next CFH?
Quoted from cfh:the 1458 chips also like to have problems. But that's a lot more complicated to replace (there's two of them, 8 pins each), and not readily available at the usual suspect places (like Rat Shack.)
How would I check the chips? This might be something I would have someone else replace if its really that tough.
Any further advice appreciated.
Did the sound ever work? why do you have a Rollergames sound board in your F-14? i'm not entirely sure that would work. But if you had it working before, and this problem is new, then i guess that answers that question.
The c11 (1mfd) and c17 (10mfd) on the sound board were good to replace. but it's looking like you also need to replace some other caps too. Also replace c3, c4, c8 (10mfd) on the sound board. These are also a must too!
This Rollergames sound board is a lot more complicated than the original F-14 sound board.
On a Rollergames, according to the schematics, you should also replace c28 (10mfd), c29 (1000mfd), c32 (1000mfd), c26 (470mfd) and c30 (470mfd). The problem is, these seem to reference caps on the CPU board, not the sound board (but i'm not entirely sure, my original Rollergames schematics are really hard to read.) With F-14 i don't know if this is still applicable. (This is why i ask if the sound ever worked right on this game.)
Also check resistor these resistors (note i'm having a hard time reading the values from the schematics.) You can check these inline with a DMM (you don't have to remove the resistors.)
r38 (8.2k)
r17 (10k)
r12 (4.7k)
r14 (can't read it)
r13 (5k)
r16 (13k)
r32 (43k)
r30 (36k)
r20 (27k)
r18 (19k)
r6 (27k)
This must be the day for sound problems.
Ok, check J3-pin3 for -12v. This is used entirely for volume adjustment. If this isnt there, you'll have no (or little to no) volume adjustment.
This voltage should be coming from the power supply 3J6 pin 2. I'm sure that goes to a bridge rectifier there somewhere which could be bad. It happens and is a $3 part. Probably just plugs in.
Quoted from cfh:Did the sound ever work? why do you have a Rollergames sound board in your F-14? i'm not entirely sure that would work. But if you had it working before, and this problem is new, then i guess that answers that question.
I just bought this F-14 a week a go and it came with this board in it. So I actually have no idea if it ever worked 100% correctly in the past. This is only the third pin I have owned and worked on so I did not know any better to realize it was the incorrect board at the time. Should I consider just buying the correct board? I can check all of the stuff you recommend but replacing it correctly may be the way to go at this point.
I apologize if I confused anything, I assumed that it had previously worked. Are there any local pinheads that might have a machine which you could test your board in?
You may also consider trading in your board with one of the guys who do board work, and asking to get the proper board back.
A couple ideas:
Have you checked to make sure the speakers are still good? This doesn't sound like a blown speaker to me but just curious.
Are there any settings in the menu that you can adjust in regards to the sounds? I would blow it all out and do a factory reset just to make sure.
You have probably all ready done this.... but just a thought.
Quoted from rancegt:I apologize if I confused anything, I assumed that it had previously worked. Are there any local pinheads that might have a machine which you could test your board in?
No no no, thank you for your help. It was not until clay chimed in that I began to put pieces together. He said
Quoted from cfh:Did the sound ever work? why do you have a Rollergames sound board in your F-14? i'm not entirely sure that would work. But if you had it working before, and this problem is new, then i guess that answers that question.
But unfortunatley at this point I have no way of knowing if it ever did work. I contacted the pinsider I bought it from and he never did anything to the sound board and the volume issue never bothered him. He was very upfront that it had this issue to begin with so I find absolutely zero fault with him, nor do I regret my purchase. This is fixable in one way or another, just need to figure out how to do it.
At this point I am going to replace the other caps Clay suggested: C3, C4 and C8. I still need to check J3-pin3 for -12v like castlesteve suggested. After that I think I am going to go your route and see if I can buy or trade someone for the correct board that is in the manual. I have done some looking around online and have not seen anyone selling the board I need yet, so I am hoping that is not a huge hurdle. I have not yet put it out there on here that I need one so hopefully a fellow pinsider has one that wants to trade or sell me.
In the end I do have some sound so it is not the end of the world. I just have that need to fix anything wrong on my machine. Thanks again for all your input, if you know of any online places that sell sound boards let me know.
Quoted from Tweedlefuzz:A couple ideas:
Have you checked to make sure the speakers are still good? This doesn't sound like a blown speaker to me but just curious.
Are there any settings in the menu that you can adjust in regards to the sounds? I would blow it all out and do a factory reset just to make sure.
You have probably all ready done this.... but just a thought.
the speakers are all equally low so I do not think they are the problem. I swapped out the speaker in the bottom cab for a stereo speaker I had (not the same exact size mind you) but I had exactly the same results so I kinda ruled them out. No settings in the menu sadly and I did the factory reset and reseated every cable on that sound board and where they end up multiple times at this point. Thank you for the help though, input always appreciated.
Quoted from Ekacboon:also go thru the program settings and the other adjustable volume is the connector
i think the manual speaks of is the analog wires going from 1J16 main cpu to 11J1 of the sound board
Also, I never figured out what you meant by this Ekacboon, can you or anyone else elaborate?
Ok, heres my update.
I replaced every capacitor that CFH and Rancegt suggested above.
I looked around online and I saw on IPDB and in a pinsiders thread pics of two different F-14's with this same model of soundboard in it. Also saw it mentioned in a thread on rpg so it must be compatible.
I have not checked what castlesteve said yet
Quoted from castlesteve:Ok, check J3-pin3 for -12v. This is used entirely for volume adjustment. If this isnt there, you'll have no (or little to no) volume adjustment.
This voltage should be coming from the power supply 3J6 pin 2. I'm sure that goes to a bridge rectifier there somewhere which could be bad. It happens and is a $3 part. Probably just plugs in.
Do I just set the DMM to 12V and put red lead on the J3 pin3 and the black lead on the ground?
Also I have not checked the transistors yet as CFH suggested above, what setting do I use on my dmm for this, just continuity?
Lastly I did notice something new tonight. While listening to the music in the test setting I unplugged the connector for the top two speakers and the speaker in the cab got louder. Same goes the other way, bottom speaker unplugged and the top speakers are louder, any thoughts on that?
This sounds like a resistor issue on the sound board, not too uncommon on Sys 11 games, check the resistance on the resistor bank on the boards, if you find one open or way out of spec, it may solve your issue, I have done this on a Taxi and a Mousin Around both with similar symptoms, see the above post on those resistors...If that does not fix it , it may be the amplifier chip itself...
to answer: set your DMM to DC volts. If your particular meter has voltage ranges, set it for 12V to 20V range.
put black wire on ground (or ground braid) and test with the red. Pay attention to the +12V and -12V values at tell us what they are. At the same time, switch over to AC volts and measure.
Oh, and yes, if you disconnect either the display speakers or the cabinet speakers, the others will get louder. They are connected in parallel and that is correct observation.
Thank you Zen and Castlesteve, hopefully I will have time to check this tonight and I will report back.
Quoted from castlesteve:put black wire on ground (or ground braid) and test with the red. Pay attention to the +12V and -12V values at tell us what they are. At the same time, switch over to AC volts and measure.
Ok was able to check J3 pin3 real quick and got -13.3 for the DC. I put it on ACV and actually got a reading of zero, should that be right?
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