LotR is old hat to them, that is why. It is new hat to us, we've never owned one, we've probably only gotten to play the real deal just a few dozen times or so. I wanna see a new Star Wars pin as much as anyone else, fact of the matter is that Stern's production facility is large enough now that any VE run will not impact the creation & release of any new game, so I don't see what everyone is so upset about VE talk.

but bumping them seems to be OK?

lol....
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Okay Gimli vs Thorin in a fight. Who wins?

I think people that want VE's are OK with it - of course. The ones that aren't "OK" with it is more about them feeling that the market really doesn't need a VE, and don't think Stern will do a VE if there isn't the perceived demand based on the used market sales. There are few, very FEW, that hate the idea of a VE to protect the value of the original version that they own (same with the remakes that have and will continue).

I am fine with VEs (and remakes) being made due to a growing pinball market. More importantly, it is Stern's choice and if they want to make more they will. There are a few titles that would probably do fine as VE's and people know what they are so I won't list them again here.

Granted the license is still attainable.

License?Pfffft. Not very "punk rock pinball" of you!

Screw the license, just theme it:

"LOTR: Return to Middle E̶a̶r̶t̶h̶ Truth"

That seems to be the one area they never have trouble with.

I don't think they would have a huge problem with the license for a VE - they are basically making more of an already approved thing. But I don't know the ins and outs of all that...there are probably terms and limitations (crap like that)

Every game that isn't in production right now is "old hat". Just because you decide you want one now doesn't mean you're entitled to a brand new one off the line. This is a recent pinhead phenomenon. "I missed it new, so I want it new, NOW!". Nah, how about do what all of us do/did in this hobby...hunt one down! They exist and they're out there. Can't find one instantly? Wah wah, keep looking and you'll find one eventually.

Upset? No. Annoyed by the entitlement and never ending speculation? Yes.

Yep, I'm not licensing guy, but I can only imagine what a PITA it is.

AS a potential buyer here is my problem. Your HUO could be up to 12 years old. Now, I really like LOTR, owned the same exact machine twice in fact. I want another, but here is the kicker.

12 year old machine for 5.5k or nib stern for 4400? Metallica is an excellent game. I can also get a lightly used ACDC for that matter, also an amazing game. Both of which are newer and cheaper.

Now add in that there is a good chance stern will remake LOTR and which sounds like the better idea? Buy an amazing NIB game that stern makes now and wait for the VE? Or, buy a LOTR now and lose 1k in value if the ve comes out? Prices aren't climbing at the moment so chances are next year if there is no VE I can just buy a LOTR for about what it is now anyways.

That was my decision-making process, too, back in October. My biggest hurdle was trying to decide between TH and LOTR, but I wanted to play, not wait, so I pulled the trigger on LOTR, and I've been playing it ever since. Just completed TABA for the third time last night, after 6 months of ownership.

I am with you on that - VE can come or not (don't really mind either way). But I am not sure I want to silence, or become annoyed by, the ones that are speculating or asking for a VE.

I think that being vocal - even on a 'relatively' small site like Pinside - could help a VE cause much more than remaining silent. Overall the market should be the biggest deciding factor. I think Stern and JJP, and others, keep a pulse on the activity on this forum, so if you have an idea, criticism, complaint, wish, or praise let it fly!

You are correct...I purchased mine in 2004, so it's roughly 12 years young

To answer your question...the age of a machine NEVER enters into my thinking. Only condition. My LOTR is just as beautiful and plays as strong as my AC/DC and MET (both NIB purchases). From my perspective, the PF's and parts only get cheaper over time (since Stern is trying to make more $$).

And your comment on "losing 1k" is also misguided (i.e. not unique to the VE phenomenon). I bought a NIB STLE and decided to sell it after 4-6 months. I lost money (which is pretty common if you sell ANY NIB in under 1 year). If you don't want to "lose money", don't sell. If space is more precious than money (and you don't like the pin), then you take your lumps and move on...

snaroff

You've already completed TABA 3 times? Nice. Sounds like Valinor awaits!

Example of the entitlement I was speaking of. Sometimes old out of production games are pricey. Wah wah wah. Want a Scared Stiff? Pay $5-6k or don't own one. They're not gonna remake it. Remake candidates are VERY slim.

True, the chances of 'your pin' being remade is next to nil - so I wouldn't expect it, or make go-no go decision on buying based on a possible VE.

Thanks. Completed TABA (not just started) three times in the last 3 weeks, and completed DTR three times just last night.

Unfortunately, the outlanes are killers, and my nudging game still needs a lot of work.

I agree about the outlanes comment. It makes me wonder about the people that complain about marathon games on LOTR if they have their outlanes in or the game setup easy? I love setting the game up hard and tweaking software adjustments to compensate.

I understand LOTR can still have long ball times even when setup hard, but the software supports this immensely! It's why it's one of the best. Hell I had a 45 min game on ACDC when I made it to encore, does that make it a marathon type game too?

Some off-topic LotR world talk. I'm assuming that more movies will be made if $$$ can be made. Peter Jackson said he'd never touch the Silmarillion, but that doesn't mean some other director/producer won't try to create some bastardized script loosely based on it. I don't see how a movie could be made from it unless it just used the book as a historical reference and they did something else with it, like cast in the future, Melkor returns from the void to take over the world, completely made up after that. Thoughts?

For me, there's a lot of options out there. LOTR is in the category of would like to own someday, but not at the top of the list. And while I can certainly afford to lose $500, given a choice between two pins that I want, one of which has a reasonable chance of going down in value while the other doesn't, I'll probably pick the one that doesn't seem likely to go down in value.

Different strokes, baby. Different strokes.

Stern's business model was built on starting with a relatively small run and then rerunning the machine whenever they thought the demand was there, and it made business sense to them.

Is there much of a difference between a "VE" and any other time Stern has rerun a machine?

I see no problem with people voicing their desires for Stern to rerun "x" title. Thinking it's going to happen though is anyone's guess.

If Stern thinks there is enough demand to make a good profit and it makes sense production/resource wise, why wouldn't they do it? They need to keep games running down the line. Even more so if they've increased the size of their production facilities in the new factory.

If they decide to rerun LOTR, I expect years from now we will just be comparing the 2015 run to all the previous runs and the LE

Full disclosure: I own an LOTR.

This is a good idea with any high price luxury item. No way do you want to get stuck with stock of $5k games.

Demand & time.

Their contracts are generally a 3 year window, and you usually see the re-runs within those 3 years. True - TSPP and LOTR went beyond that and relicensed for new runs years later....but the demand was clear and thousands more games were made during those re-runs. Is there TRULY demand for at least 500 more LOTR, or is it just a few Pinsiders who want something new because they "missed out"? I don't think the demand is truly there, especially with such abundant supply available.

I disagree on supply/demand -- there has been far more interest shown in LOTR than in any other potential remake by Stern. And clearly even with the relatively massive supply, there's sufficient demand to keep prices in the $5k neighborhood.

If your take is that we won't be seeing any VEs in the next few years because there isn't a game out there that would make financial sense for Stern to run as a VE at this point, you may be right. But if you're saying that Stern could make more VEs sometime in the next few years but LOTR is unlikely to be among them, which titles do you think would sell better? Can you honestly say there's a big pool of games that would have greater demand at ~ $5k to $6k?

Of course licensing could kill LOTR VE. But the same can be said for Tron, POTC, and BBH. Without specific inside information, licensing speculation doesn't strike me as a great reason to nix any given title as a potential VE.

"Entitlement"? Stern told us in a press release that we should "Look for future Stern Vault Editions" and people are lobbying for games they'd like to see get the VE treatment. Seems reasonable enough to me.

I agree that there's been "never ending speculation" though and at the least, it'd be great if people posted in the old "LOTR VE" threads instead of creating new ones.

I wanted a VE, but just bought HUO , heavily moded , from Tech man, works with Chris Hutchens .
Couldn't be happier! No VE would come close !

Good call! Sounds like this is a pristine example congrats!!

Addams proves this very fact. Still a $6k game, 21,270 made, including the 1000 golds.

I can see quite a bit of demand for an NIB LOTR for the following reasons:

1) It's widely considered to be one of Stern's best games.
2) Many people seem to prefer an NIB over an older, used game. Even if the older game is superior to the new release in regards to code, gameplay, sound, etc..
3) Majority of games were routed, so there will be people who want to upgrade.
4) Games went off-route before the current pinball resurgence, so there may be operators who want to route them again and start with a fresh new example.

500 games doesn't seem like a whole lot, especially if it was announced between any other major releases.

Full disclosure: I already upgraded my routed example to an HUO once I played it for a while and decided it was a keeper in my collection.

Thanks! All I had to do was add mirror blades.

Is there demand? Yes I would say they could sell 500-1000 of them pretty easy. The thing is they have 3 new titles a year to design and build not to mention remakes that will be on their lines for years to come. From what I hear Stern has no immediate plans to release a LOTRVE but if they did they could have it up and running in a months time like they did for IM. So you never know.

The main reason I don't wait on it is because 1. we don't know if a LOTRVE will ever be made 2. there is no idea when this will be done if ever 3. there are plenty of nice examples out there to buy right now at a decent price point 4. if ever done it will not be ported to spike so no upgraded sound or hardware. Why wait for a pin I want now just because there is a possibility that sometime in the future a new run may come to fruition? There are plenty out there and you can get nice ones in the $4800-$5000 range. If a VE is announced they would likely be in the $5400-$5600 price range shipped. IMO that will not have any significant impact on the price point LOTR is at right now. I know some disagree but IMO nice LOTRs will not go down much if at all from their current value even if a VE is made.

How do you do that, exactly? Wouldn't it be more like a HUR (Home Use Recently) ?

How? I just say it and therefore it is!

Scared Stiff is unlikely to be remade anytime soon, at least in part because PPS hold the rights to a good number of other games that would likely sell better as remakes (AFM, MB, BBB and CC to name a few). You'd be nuts to remake Scare Stiff if you could be remaking AFM instead.

But Stern doesn't own the rights to those games. Not to beat a dead horse, but what Stern games other than LOTR do you see as viable candidates for VE treatment? Maybe Stern's not going to make any more VEs at all, but if you concede that there's a list of possible remake candidates at Stern, LOTR has to be at the top.

That said, it would be exciting if Stern bought the rights from PPS to remake some of the old B/W classics as VEs. Since they're already doing the assembly and all ...

Maybe they make a LOTRVE

Maybe they don't

I don't see it having a huge impact on pricing. MM this ain't. You can get a pristine stock HUO minty LOTR for $5K whereas MM's in similar condition was like $20K before the MMr project.

Stern raises prices like $250 every year too. If it happens in say 18 mos a LOTR will be north of $5K **if** they price it like a Pro. If they price it like a premium or a hybrid of some sorts then who knows?

I own LOTR. Sheeyat I might even buy a VE I'd prolly pay up to a $1K premium to get a new one & lose money on the old one. I am all in for a VE. I mean this is the fucking Catalina LOTR wine mixer we're talking about here!!!

But if they don't make one... Ok

Just casually reading through this thread, it seems like LOTR VE is definitely coming out next week, right?

In all seriousness, Stern, if you are reading this -- which I know you are -- if you announce today, I will definitely buy one, right away. The same might not be true a year from now when I've had the chance to play TH and have more money. So announce now!!!

LOTRVE is not happening . Even if 50 people promise to buy it.

Source for your unqualified statement? Otherwise you're just blowing smoke, same as the guys saying "LOTR VE is next."

Show me where please, been looking a year, nothing but beat up routed games at 5K in NJ. Thumbs up for catalina wine mixer.

This is a direct quote from Gary
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Probably Tron? Other than that....yeah...dunno. I mean, I don't want to keep repeating myself....but while LOTR (and TSPP) are some of their best games, they're also the ones they made the most of. If the licensing costs worked out and Stern knew they could sell 500-1000 of them, yes - it would happen. However, I've heard the licensing costs are prohibitive for a small run this time around...and I'm still not convinced the demand is truly there despite a few very vocal people on Pinside.

Honestly, I think when Stern said more VE's to come, they didn't mean it was imminent...I think they were just covering their butts against people crying foul who might have just bought an IM for $7k. They were saying "If it wasn't an LE, it's fair game for future productions....doesn't mean anything or everything will be remade...but if it is, you can't be pissed about it". However, as we've seen - the community took it as "THE REMAKES ARE COMING!!!! THE REMAKES ARE COMING!!!! Don't buy any old Sterns! New ones are coming!!!!"

I hope your crystal ball is right.

The hypocrisy in this discussion is some VE-enthusiasts say the ONLY reason the VE-opponents are against them is fear of losing $$. Here you are (a VE-enthusiast) saying you'll sit on the sideline for fear of losing money

I agree with Rarehero...this is more likely about the "recent pinhead phenomenon" of simply wanting NIB (which is no doubt a simpler transaction). Some collectors (like me) like the "hunt" of finding great examples that great collectors/restorers are selling. I actually PREFER buying from a great/anal collector than buying directly from Stern. I've owned many barely used Sterns (Sopranos, IM, Tron, AP, etc.) that were just as nice as NIB. In fact, nicer in many instances. I've had more tech issues with NIB Sterns than with a pin that was babied/tuned by a collector. No joke, but maybe I've just been lucky...

I can't imagine how boring the hobby of collecting would be if my only transactions were NIB purchases through Stern.

snaroff

Sorry Wolfy...

Let's not gang up on people now, I respect Wolfy's opinion, even though I don't agree with it, and I posted a picture of gary the snail. Nobody knows currently, he could be right for all we know.

I just bought a nice routed example for a friend for $4200 and one that was heavily modded looked HUO went for $4900-5200 that same week. The Bay Area usually has higher price points for pins but a large amount changing hands. They are out there the trick is finding someone that actually wants to sell. Just because some not really looking to sell ask $6K (or 5K for beater) doesn't mean that's the going rate.

Where?

I hear ya, and I believe it can still happen, got lucky as hell with my FH. Just have had no such luck with LotR. Everything around here goes for big bucks. The nice thing about living in a heavily populated area is that there are a lot of pins nearby for sale. The rough parts is that the ones that are sought after goes for more for that same reason, lots of people that wants them, thus there is definitely a demand for them. Everybody wants the precious. I'm starting to get ring rage.