(Topic ID: 110979)

LOTR: Switch activates multiple switchs on matrix. SOLVED

By Dr-Willy

9 years ago


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  • 36 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Ashram56
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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balrog wiring.JPG
image.jpg
switch matrix.png
switch matrix.png
#1 9 years ago

Well this is a new one for me. On my LOTR I have 2 different switches, that when pressed/activated, are turning on multiple switches in the matrix in the same column. My ball trough #2 switch, when pressed is also activating my shooter lane switch, which is causing my auto launch coil to think there is a ball constantly in the shooter lane.

Also my middle top lane switch when pressed is activating both the ring mode and back trough switches. I cant find any splices or jumpers anywhere in the wiring. Also I check continuity from the respecting wires to all the other wires back to the plug cn5 & cn7 at the cpu board and I only get continuity from the same color to same color, so it doesn't appear there is a jumper in wiring.

I also tried desoldering and resoldering the wires to other switches, to see if it was a bad switch, and still get the samething on the switch I transfer them to. Perhaps I am missing something obvious and stupid?

#2 9 years ago

Broken diode on a switch. To lazy to read all of it.

#3 9 years ago

Somebody else had a somewhat similar problem in the last few days and they reported it was bad transistors:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/lotr-light-issue

#4 9 years ago

thanks for the reply I will check continuity between pins on the board!

#5 9 years ago

no continuity between pins on the same plug like the other guy, so back to the drawing board. At this point I am thinking that the IC that controls the switches had gone bad.

#6 9 years ago

Make sure you have no battery acid leakage on the board.

#7 9 years ago

The board was switched over to a coin cell battery. I checked and didn't see any type of acid damage from the previous holder.... Beating my head against a wall. Anybody else have any ideas?

#8 9 years ago

Is there a test to isolate whether its a board or pf wiring like on williams? Did you do any thing under pf?

#9 9 years ago

to my knowledge sterns do not have this test to determine if its playfield or a board issue. I haven't changed any wiring personally, I bought the game from an op over the summer along with 3 others. He was down sizing his route and I am starting one. It has pretty much sat since I got it cause I just haven't had the time to dig into it. Well my route is growing and I need to get these games up and going so started cleaning them and what not. Got it pretty nice started to play a game and noticed this was happening. That's why I started looking for hacked wiring first but don't see any.

#10 9 years ago

Not that familiar with Sterns, but I would think you can isolate it to the board or playfield the same way as a Williams. Disconnect the row and column connectors and go into whatever equivalent of switch edge test the game has. In your case you could then jumper across the row and column for the specific switches that are having problems with and see if you still get phantom switch indications.

#11 9 years ago

just did the Williams switch test and the switches work properly at the board, so looks like a wiring issue I get to track down...... Not looking forward to this one lol.

#12 9 years ago

Post a picture of the switch matrix and a list of exactly which switches falsely show closed and which switch you are closing to make that happen. Please use switch numbers in the description.

Have you done any work on the game prior to this problem arising?

#13 9 years ago

Take half off daisy chain column. Move forward or backward

#14 9 years ago

I had a similar problem on my LOTR and it, too, was once routed. Have a look at this thread and see if you're having the same issue. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/multiple-switch-activation-on-lotr#post-1492468-e

Dave

#15 9 years ago

I had a similar issue once, turned out to be one of the diodes shorting. I found this useful when troubleshooting http://pinballrehab.com/1-articles/solid-state-repair/repair-guides/146-switch-matrix-theory-and-troubleshooting#column-short

#16 9 years ago

Thanks for all the links and suggestions guys I will dive into this soon and figure out what's going on.

#17 9 years ago

look for a short in row 8. Looking for a bent over diode or a wire soldered to the wrong side of the diode on the switch.

#8 unused (but wires might be present near the right flipper button)
#16 Shooter lane
#24 right ramp made
#32 Balrob closed
#40 left ramp made
#48 back trough
#56 plumb bob
#64 not used

Just ran into this on a GNR I picked up and the previous owner had soldered a wire back onto a drop target on the wrong lug on the switch. Took me way longer to find the problem than it should have. When ever that target was down and I hit the left flipper button it would activate the VUK switch and the the right ramp switch was causing the right outlane to go off.

#18 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Post a picture of the switch matrix and a list of exactly which switches falsely show closed and which switch you are closing to make that happen. Please use switch numbers in the description.
Have you done any work on the game prior to this problem arising?

Here ya go.

When switch #13 (ball 3 trough) is activated it also closes switch #16 (shooter lane) both are circled in red. Also when switch #44 (middle lane) is activated it also closed switch #47 (ring mode) and switch #48 (back trough). All of these are circled in blue.

switch matrix.pngswitch matrix.png

#19 9 years ago

Had this issue on an IJ recently. Accidentally discovered that a ball struck the under side of my mini-playfield. This bent the tabs on my micro switch, causing it to short. When the switch was depressed about 3-4 switches would simultaneously activate. Re-bent said tab, viola! Switch issue gone.

#20 9 years ago

Take all the balls out of the trough and see if the problems go away, then add them back one by one and see when the problem starts again.

Not that familiar with Stern, does the game have any optos?

#21 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

Not that familiar with Stern, does the game have any optos?

Yes, the ring made switch is an opto pair. I would suggest he test that switch and reseat the opto connectors under the playfield. I would also suggest checking the back trough and middle lane switches closely. The middle lane switch is close to other switches and all it takes is one strand of loose wire touching a neighboring switch to cause symptoms like he's seeing. The back trough switch is behind the ring. Playfield needs be be slid out to get a look at it.

#22 9 years ago

I think i might have found my issue, i havent had time to correct it yet, but I just found it. Balrog is registering as hit and closed at the sametime. I think he is wired back words. When he is just standing in position switch 28 (balrog hit) and #32 (balrog closed) are showing as active. Also upon further testing every switch attached to row #4 (white-yellow wire) when activated, activates the switch in the same column of row #8 (white-gray wire).Im going to change the balrog wiring and see where it takes me.

Oh and ive been wrong this entire time, it isn't trough #3 that is activating the shooter lane switch, its trough #2. Ive attached a new switch matrix chart showing in different colors which switch is activating the other switches. Also I reseated all the connections on the ring made opto and its seems to be okay now.....

switch matrix.pngswitch matrix.png

#23 9 years ago

IIRC the balrog hit switch is a normally closed switch and hitting him opens the switch. The balrog closed switch is closed when he is blocking the ramp. The balrog open switch is closed when he is sideways and the ring ramp is open.

#24 9 years ago

I would check to see if the diode is installed correctly on the Balrog hit switch. This is the one that is more likely to have been replaced at some point. This would also cause the exact pattern that you are seeing. With a missing or incorrect diode you will need 3 switches activated to make a fourth go off by itself in the typcial box pattern. So "balrog closed" is closed, "balrog hit" is closed with a diode error, any other switch registering in row 4 will cause the switch in the same row of column 8 also register

Should have the green wire on the middle lug, have the white band of the diode attached to the hinge lug of the switch and the other end of the diode and the white wires attached to the last lug.

You can actually verify this by moving the balrog to the open position, when you do that hitting any of the switches in row 4 will make the same column switch in row 7 (this will verify the problem is on the Balrog hit switch). If however this doesn't happen, then the next likely scenario is the problem is on the balrog closed switch in this case opening the balrog will make the problems go away and not manifest again until the balrog is closed.

#25 9 years ago

Balrog was wired incorrectly. However it was wired just the way you said so, green to the middle, white yellow to the common on the switch. The game didn't like this, it was showing it as always open, he should be always closed, and when you hit him he opens. I switch it and it took care of all the issues I have been having with the switches. game plays great now and everything is working properly.

Thanks again to everyone who replied and helped with this situation!

#26 9 years ago

Sweet! I'm glad you found it congrats

#27 9 years ago

Congrats on getting it working.

#28 9 years ago
Quoted from Dr-Willy:

Balrog was wired incorrectly. However it was wired just the way you said so, green to the middle, white yellow to the common on the switch. The game didn't like this

Is there a diode on the switch? There should be. How I described it is how it should be wired.

In the game the switch has the roller end pointed down and the hinge of the switch wireform at the top.

Top lug (at the switch hinge) will have only the diode soldered to it, with the white banded side)
Middle lug has the green wire
Bottom lug has the white wire and the other side of the diode.

#29 9 years ago

Kbliznick's description above is correct.

I recently encountered problems with Balrog hits not registering. I traced back to the root cause... A broken wire inside the insulation of the Balrog wire harness at the open/close flex point of the Balrog motor's pivot shaft. While repairing this issue, I also replaced the switch and diode.

The photo below shows the wiring configuration of the original switch and diode, before I replaced them. I used the photo for reference before soldering the wires to the new diode and switch.

image.jpgimage.jpg

#30 9 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Make sure you have no battery acid leakage on the board.

There is no acidic battery in a pinball machine that could cause any acid damage.

#31 9 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

There is no acidic battery in a pinball machine that could cause any acid damage.

? Ok then alkali

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/battery-acid-damage

#32 9 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Kbliznick's description above is correct.
I recently encountered problems with Balrog hits not registering. I traced back to the root cause... A broken wire inside the insulation of the Balrog wire harness at the open/close flex point of the Balrog motor's pivot shaft. While repairing this issue, I also replaced the switch and diode.
The photo below shows the wiring configuration of the original switch and diode, before I replaced them. I used the photo for reference before soldering the wires to the new diode and switch.

image.jpg 488 KB

This explains a lot. That is not how my switch was mounted, I will take it back apart tonight and show you how mine is. Stupid ops.......

#33 9 years ago
Quoted from Dr-Willy:

This explains a lot. That is not how my switch was mounted, I will take it back apart tonight and show you how mine is. Stupid ops.......

Glad it helped.

Just for clarity, the switch is not really mounted in its final position there. I unscrewed the switch mounting bracket from the back of the Balrog toy just so I could get a photo of the wire and diode configuration on the lugs of the switch, but it is configured exactly as kbliznick described in his post above.

Good luck sorting it out. Post pics when you dig back in.

#34 9 years ago

Okay yes, my balrog was wired wrong to start with, and then I wired it wrong again haha. Your pic helped greatly. When I pulled it origianally the green was in the middle and the white yellow was on the diode side with the strip. That's what was causing all my switch issues. I switch the green to the other outer lug and it made my switch problems go away so I thought that fixed it until I was playing it today and noticed anytime balrog was actively blocking the ramp and the ball would hit him, my auto plunger would fire. That's where you pic came in, I pulled him again, via your pic put him back in and viola, everything works perfectly. Here is a pic for reference of how I wired it, which will make it work, but cause weird side effects lol.

balrog wiring.JPGbalrog wiring.JPG

Kbliznick was spot on, but I misread his post thinking it said the white yellow was supposed to be wired to the side of the diode with the stripe, which is how it was wired to start with and causing all kinds of issues.

Again thanks to everyone who helped out!

#35 9 years ago

Yep, that'll do it. Glad you got it fixed. Enjoy the game!

6 years later
#36 3 years ago

Well well well... and that's exactly the issue I have. Except that I did the investigation the hard way, doing the four corner test to determine which switch was causing the problem, only to discover when testing the diodes that... well I don't have a diode anymore behind the Balrog... Kind of explains a lot...

I really wonder where that diode went...

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