(Topic ID: 247121)

LOTR Strange boot up issues


By Chappie101

6 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 48 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 days ago by PinballManiac40
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 16 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

2019-07-14 18_03_51-LOTR Strange boot up issues _ Tech_ Modern games _ Pinside.com (resized).png
20190714_114135 (resized).jpg
DSC00665 (resized).JPG
20190714_124822 (resized).jpg
20190714_124808 (resized).jpg
20190714_123407 (resized).jpg
20190714_123328 (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
pasted_image (resized).png
LotRpcb01arrowadded (resized).jpg
20190713_121135 (resized).jpg
20190713_111135 (resized).jpg
20190713_111151 (resized).jpg
20190713_111201 (resized).jpg
20190713_111209 (resized).jpg
20190713_111218 (resized).jpg

#1 6 months ago

I'm posting this for all you techy people out there and hope you can shed some light on to these strange boot up screens on my Lord of the Rings. I'll say this that once it's booted up it plays fine with no problems whatsoever. All switches, lights , sounds and game play is normal. It's just my OCD that is compelling me to ask for your guidance because it's just an annoyance. Anyway machine has lots of mods including the shaker motor, when it's booting up I get strange messages saying "Standard Audit 233 Not Defined" and there are others but different ones. There's also the Coil malfunction alert, but as I said once it's booted up there are no errors or issues playing the game. The one thing I notice is that there seems to be display errors showing the high scores when it's starting like "DAFE" instead of "DAVEY", it's the same no matter if it's in fast boot or slow boot although the errors are different. I'm attaching a couple of videos to show the start up sequence in both fast boot and slow boot. I'm thinking it may be one of the ROM's that are going out but I don't know it's perplexing. Any ideas or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys.

#2 6 months ago

Very strange indeed. Could it be too many powered mods dragging down the power supply? Just a wild guess. You could try unplugging any powered mods and rebooting to see if the issue goes away.

#3 6 months ago

lotr_breath, thanks for the tip. however I bought this about 2 months ago, previous owner did disclose these issues on start up, but like I said game plays without any problems after it's booted up. The only mod he had was the palantir mod. Since owning it I have added a lot more mods to it, lighted Gandalf staff, color DMD, lighted flipper buttons, Volcano mod, interactive LED backbox, a full LED conversion with LEDOCD board, and the issues are still there maybe a little more than before, if I'm being honest. The reason I was thinking display ROM was because of the strange misspelled names when booting. But I could be on the wrong track here with those Standard Audit not defined errors, coupled with the display errors. Do you think a board could be going bad? But if it was wouldn't it give issues when playing a game? I can play for 2 hours and have no problems with the game play at all, except draining frequently LOL

#4 6 months ago

Looks like a problem that starts at the CPU board. Please post a picture of the CPU board.

#5 6 months ago

What version is your game/display ROMs?

#6 6 months ago

Whenever weird stuff happens I suspect alkaline damage. It's easy to look for, usually easy to find, and sometimes hard to remediate.

Post pictures of your boards. Well focused, high resolution. Especially near the batteries or where the batteries used to be if they have been relocated.

#7 6 months ago

This has the shaker motor, display ROM is 10.0, and the 10.02 chip and the pal chip, shaker works great.

20190713_111135 (resized).jpg20190713_111151 (resized).jpg20190713_111201 (resized).jpg20190713_111209 (resized).jpg20190713_111218 (resized).jpg
#8 6 months ago

Almost seems as if the RAM is getting corrupt. Did you remove the batteries for the picture? Were batteries in the game when you took the videos?

I do suggest NVRAM and remove the battery holder so alkaline batteries do not have a chance to damage that perfect looking set of boards.
https://www.pinitech.com/products/6264_nvram.php

#9 6 months ago

pinballmaniac40 No there were no batteries in when I got the game.
I thought the NVRAM was the chip below the battery holder to the right of the CPU chip is that not right? When I brought it home I didn't get an alarm about opening the coin door so I'm assuming it has an NVRAM chip in it. Thanks

#10 6 months ago

That looks to be a regular RAM chip that would need batteries. What is the number and the name on the part?

Can you try a set of batteries temporarily?

#11 6 months ago

pinballmaniac40
I zoomed in on that chip and there is no markings on it at all, it's just blank. I've just ordered an NVRAM chip from your link, I will try installing a set of batteries and let you know. Thanks,

#12 6 months ago

The CPU ROM U210 looks odd. All the pins on the left look different from all the pins on the right. None of the other chips look like that. Maybe remove, straighten the pins and re-install?

#13 6 months ago

@pinballmaniac40

My bad on the chip, here's a better picture of it.

20190713_121135 (resized).jpg
#14 6 months ago

Added a new fresh set of batteries and same strange behavior on start up. I think I will try @lotr_breath suggestion and try removing the CPU chip and straighten the pins when zooming in on it the left side does look a little different from the other side. Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

#15 6 months ago

I'd try a factory reset as described in the manual in section 3, chapter 6, page 51 on the bottom of the page.

What is this blob near U405?
LotRpcb01arrowadded (resized).jpg

Edit: If you need someone to playtest in the name of science let me know. I'm just up the road.

#16 6 months ago
Quoted from Chappie101:

Added a new fresh set of batteries and same strange behavior on start up. I think I will try @lotr_breath suggestion and try removing the CPU chip and straighten the pins when zooming in on it the left side does look a little different from the other side. Thanks for all the suggestions guys.

You have NVRAM installed so no batteries are needed...ever. I wouldn't remove the battery holder, just put a sticker on it saying NVRAM is installed and no batteries are required.

I was once told by a distributor that v10 should not be installed in an original LOTR as it was released specifically for the LOTR Gold edition...I'm not sure if this is true or not as I've never seen that documented anywhere.

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I was once told by a distributor that v10 should not be installed in an original LOTR as it was released specifically for the LOTR Gold edition...I'm not sure if this is true or not as I've never seen that documented anywhere.

Here is the readme from v10, currently available from Stern's website:

"CPU Release 10.00
Date October 28, 2005

Game ROM 1M U210 $84FF 10.00 lotrcpua.A00
Game ROM 1M U210 $9DFF 10.00 lotrcpul.A00

- *** THIS CPU RELEASE REQUIRES DISPLAY VERSION 10.xx ***
- *** IMPORTANT INFORMATION ***
If your game shipped with version 9 software, then please read service
bulletin #157: http://www.sternpinball.com/SB/ServiceBulletin_157.html
If your game is affected, please update your sound OS before installing
this code update, or the problems will get worse.
- Fixed a bug with entering initials for Destroy the Ring Champion when it
was earned during a ToPS Tournament game.
- Cleaned up some hacks related to Sound OS problems (the 9.0x releases, not
in 9.00).
- Fixed a bug where Palantir might try to add-a-ball when all balls were
already on the playfield during multiball.
- Fixed a bug where the game would show the FOTR MB Lit display effect AFTER
you had already started it (this happened if Pippen was the last person to
be collected).
- Russian (& other country) coinage/tournament settings added."

Service Bulletin 157 is located at https://sternpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/sb157.pdf
It reads in part: "T3 (tm) was the first game to start using the new White Star CPU/Sound II Board (SPI Part Number: 520-5300-00). ThisPC board utilizes new hardware in the sound section. This hardware required a newOperating System (O/S) in softwarethat has been continually improved and updated since T3. This has created some compatibility issues between thedifferent versions of Operating Systems. One example would be games using sound ROM’s programmed to work withO/S 5 will not work correctly in a board programmed with O/S 4. The version of the O/S can be identified by the numberof times LED1 flashes upon power-up (e.g. TheLED1 will f l i c k e r then flash 4 times = O/S 4, ... 5 times = O/S 5,etc.). Note:Color dots**are used on the IC in position U8 to also determine O/S Version for boards."

#18 6 months ago
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:

Here is the readme from v10, currently available from Stern's website:

I guess there was some confusion on if V10 will work properly on an earlier LOTR with version 4 Sound OS. I don't see why it would matter if you aren't changing sound ROMS, but the v10 updates are so minimal that it probably just isn't worth the effort of going from v9.0 to v10.

If I get bored one day, I may burn a V10 CPU and Display ROM and toss them in.

#19 6 months ago

You need display rom 10.0 and game rom 10.02 for the shaker motor.

#20 6 months ago

Ok I'm now confused whether I do have an NVRAM chip or not, could somebody please confirm whether that chip is an NVRAM chip or not.

@yeoldpinplayer that blob near U405 appears to be solder and you are more than welcome to come and flip a few games in the name of science of course any time, just shoot me a PM.

I do have the display rom 10.0 and the cpu 10.02 rom and the gold le pal chip installed for the shaker motor which is working without any problems

#21 6 months ago
Quoted from Chappie101:

Ok I'm now confused whether I do have an NVRAM chip or not, could somebody please confirm whether that chip is an NVRAM chip or not.

Confirmed.

$2 Each...

pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png
#22 6 months ago

Thank you pin_guy I'll remove the batteries as you suggested.

I guess I'm back to checking the CPU Rom as lotr_breath suggested. I appreciate all the help here guys, I will let you know if the CPU chip is the answer to my issues.

#23 6 months ago

So I got a whole new set of ROM chips from Matt's basement arcade and installed them this morning, I did the one at a time seeing if I could identify which chip was causing the issue but alas it was to no avail. The strange start up issues are still there even with a full new set of chips. At this point I am totally at a loss over what could be causing this. Anyone else have any ideas? I'm open to anything at this time, thanks

20190714_123328 (resized).jpg20190714_123407 (resized).jpg20190714_124808 (resized).jpg20190714_124822 (resized).jpg
#24 6 months ago

I know you have said before that you changed the display ROM, yet you have posted pictures of everything except the display ROM, this ROM is located on the display processor board...Can you confirm you have a V10 display ROM installed?

DSC00665 (resized).JPG
#25 6 months ago

Confirmed, this is before I changed it.

20190714_114135 (resized).jpg
#26 6 months ago

My next step would be different ribbon cables. I wouldn't buy new ones unless a different set fixed the issue. Get on the Bat City Pinball facebook page and ask around, or maybe Brandon Haney with Oldies But Goodies pinball has some you can try.

#27 6 months ago
Quoted from Chappie101:

I bought this about 2 months ago, previous owner did disclose these issues on start up, but like I said game plays without any problems after it's booted up.

Did the seller happen to mention if the problem started after the NVRAM was installed? It seems to me there is something not written to the memory.

When you see this show up on the screen, use your flipper buttons to highlight "quit" and press the start button to select it. I'm interested in knowing if it disappears after you power cycle the game.

2019-07-14 18_03_51-LOTR Strange boot up issues Tech_ Modern games Pinside.com (resized).png

#28 6 months ago

Maniac, what do you think audit 227 refers to? Nothing in the manual that high, and it's various numbers in the video.

#29 6 months ago

I think it refers to a blank space in the NVRAM where the game doesn't seem to know how to handle it, possibly a bad NVRAM, for example.

#30 6 months ago

Guys, Update, I saw @pinballmaniac40 post about hitting the flipper buttons and pressing quit, so I thought hey I never tried that I'll give it a shot. The machine has been on all afternoon btw, so I power cycled the machine and was going to try exactly what he said and it booted up normally with zero of the strange audit not defined messages. I'm now totally bewildered as to why it's suddenly decided to boot up normally for the first time since I've had it. So I thought maybe this is just a glitch and left it on for another hour and power cycled it again and lo and behold it started normal again! I think it's too early to start ccelebrating, maybe 30 seconds between a reboot isn't long enough, I will leave it off for a while then try and start it up again and see what happens. I really think you may be on to something with the NVRAM, it makes sense to me, I work in IT and if what I'm suspecting is true then leaving it off for a while would maybe confirm that the NVRAM chip is for want of a better word "leaking" information over a time period. The longer the machine is off the more the chip is "forgetting" information. I have ordered another chip just in case this is what it turns out to be. I have noticed that yesterday when I turned it on for the first time in about 4-5 days the errors were multiple, like about 4 audit not defined errors (different numbers), a high score error and free balls played error plus during the first game (and this has never happened before) the DMD score was blank but all other things played on the DMD like "Orthanic Skill Shot" etc, after a couple of minutes the score came back on the DMD.

I just wanted to give you guys an update on what's going on. I will post again after the machine has been off for a while and let you know the outcome. I really appreciate all of your help in this, you guys are amazing! Thanks and I'l keep y'all updated!

#31 6 months ago

I have seen an adjustment selection error in attract mode before in a DE Simpsons that I had installed NVRAM into. The problem went away after making that adjustment selection that kept coming up every time it was powered up.

#32 6 months ago

Your game must somehow had the NVRAM corrupted. I know how sometimes kids like to turn things on and off quickly and frequently. I'm sure there are other several possibilities when it can happen that are power related.

What about the Coil malfunction alert...has that also disappeared?

#33 6 months ago

Maniac, Yes that has also gone, I did get a chance to talk to the previous owner and got a little more info, he had the machine in Colorado and moved here to Texas, he never had any issues with it before he moved, he said there wasn't one thing he could put his finger on to when it started he just remembered it started one day but didn't pay much attention to it because the game played without any problems once it was booted up. I know we do get a lot of thunderstorms out here and he did say that he has had a lot of near lightning strikes by his place so maybe a power surge from a lightning strike could have caused this but I'm just speculating here.

So machine has been off for an hour and when starting I got Audit Not Defined 1, 11 and 243. But they flashed by pretty quickly so I didn't get a chance to hold the flipper button to try your suggestion. I'm really thinking it's the NVRAM chip that is corrupted and not holding the information over time.

Could I put in the batteries again and pull the NVRAM chip to test out the theory, until the new chip arrives?

#34 6 months ago

I see a long scratch across your NVRAM. That suggests that it was a used pulled part. So there would be no telling how many write cycles it has already seen before it was put into your game.

Quoted from Chappie101:

Could I put in the batteries again and pull the NVRAM chip to test out the theory

Yes, but you would have to install a 6264 RAM or equivalent. Do you have one?

#35 6 months ago

Maniac, No I don't have one. I'll wait until the new chip arrives and install it. I thought the game would work without that chip, sorry total noob here LOL.
So that means when I put the new chip in all the settings and scores will be reset back to factory default? If that is the case I may have to wait until the end of the week, I have my coindoor at Robert's for powder coating and won't be able to make any adjustments in the menu

#36 6 months ago

Yep, new NVRAM will rest to factory defaults...sorry to say.

#37 6 months ago

Thanks Maniac, I will update the post with any new developments, I'm really thinking this is the issue "fingers crossed"

#38 6 months ago
Quoted from Chappie101:

I have my coindoor at Robert's for powder coating and won't be able to make any adjustments in the menu

Also, without free play being set and your coin door being out, you would not be able to easily add credits to the game. Choose wisely. LOL

At least you can still enjoy your game until then with the minor annoyances.

#39 6 months ago

Thank you so much for reminding me of that!
In my haste and OCD kicking in to try and fix this I may have just gone ahead and changed the chip when it came in and then it would have been a total "DOH" moment when trying to start a game

1 week later
#40 6 months ago

UPDATE:
I installed the new NVRAM chip today and went through resetting all my settings, turned machine off for an hour then started it back up and........ NO CHANGE!! Still the same strange unknown audit errors on start up again. I have now changed all the chips in this machine and the answer to what is causing this still eludes me. I'm now beginning to think that there may be some kind of board error going on here but if that was the case then why does it only affect boot up and not game play? Once it's running there is no problems what so ever, game plays normally, if I shut it off then turn it back on within 30 seconds it boots fine but leave it off for 30 minutes then the errors come back, Specifically Audit 227,243, if I leave it longer I get a coil malfunction alert and sometimes the score on the DMD will be blank but all the other clips will show fine, the blank score will continue until ball 2. I'm at a total loss now guys. Does anybody out there have any clue to what I can try next?
Thanks for reading this.

#41 6 months ago

Well damn! Still has to be something CPU related.

#42 6 months ago

I know the LOTR LE has a SAM driver board in it, not a Whitestar driver board.

#43 6 months ago

Maniac, Not quite sure where you're going with the driver board but there a lot of other guys with a functioning shaker motor in their LOTR that aren't having these issues. But yes, very perplexing and annoying

#44 6 months ago
Quoted from Chappie101:

Maniac, Not quite sure where you're going with the driver board but there a lot of other guys with a functioning shaker motor in their LOTR that aren't having these issues. But yes, very perplexing and annoying

Do they have the original LOTR with the Whitestar driver board just as yours does or they have the LOTR LE?

#45 6 months ago

Maniac,
As far as I know they have the original Whitestar board, Thanks

5 months later
#46 14 days ago

Revisiting this, chappie101 is still having the same problem.

Anyone know what section of the Whitestar board generates those errors? Something in the boot process looks for those errors and it’s either getting bad data or outputting bad data.

Maybe booting with the playfield disconnected would help isolate the problem?

#47 11 days ago

Thanks yeoldpinplayer for bringing this back up!
I have just changed the ribbon cables and there is no difference. I'm thinking that it must be the Display power driver board. As you cannot use the flippers to navigate through the error messages, so the machine must think there are no errors. I can't see any corrosion on the driver board in any of the capacitors so maybe like I was thinking it may be a weak/cold solder joint somewhere on the board. It takes 5 to 10 mins for the errors to stop showing up on the display but you can play a game without any issues after about 20 to 30 secs it's just that the errors keep popping up on the display as you're playing but all the mechs and sounds are normal. If you restart the game immediately it starts normal without the errors but if you leave it for 10-15 minutes they are back again. The longer the machine is powered off the longer it takes for them to go away. Still puzzled

#48 8 days ago

Really need to a board over to another game to verify which board is causing the problem. The MPU would be my first choice to try.

Bound to have friends with a Whitestar game.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 139.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Sparky Pinball
$ 95.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
M&M Mods
$ 130.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ModFather Pinball Mods

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside