(Topic ID: 127935)

LOTR LED ghosting

By windoesnot

8 years ago


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  • 43 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by DCFAN
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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#1 8 years ago

Hi all

Am having a problem with my new LOTR. Have put in a 2 SMD Premium 'non-ghosting' kit from pinball-led.co.uk and also an LED OCD board.

Everything looks fine apart from all lamps on row 3 and column 7 of the lamp matrix which are all suffering from terrible ghosting, no matter what settings I put my OCD board to.

Any suggestions?

Thanks

#2 8 years ago

There are a lot of possible causes of what might look like ghosting. To get a better idea of what is going on with your machine, here's a few questions/comments.

Did you notice any problems before installing the LEDs and LED OCD?

Did you install the LEDs and the LED OCD at the same time, or were you trying to fix one by adding the other?

If you go into lamp test, do you notice any patterns to how the ghosting LEDs light up? Do they light in combination with particular other lamps, etc.?

You might have a problem with the lamp matrix and the LEDs and OCD are making it a more complex problem to solve. I would suggest removing the LED OCD for now and see if the problem still exists.

Finally, LED OCD is best used with simple LEDs. The premium non-ghosting types have extra hardware that can get in the way of the LED OCD doing it's job.

#3 8 years ago

Post a video, if you can.

#4 8 years ago

It was happening with the LED's before the OCD board was installed.

I've also tried putting normal LED's in the same lamps that ghost and get the same problem.

#5 8 years ago

Just to add no issues at all if the lamps use non-LED bulbs

#6 8 years ago

If I am seeing things properly, that is full-on LEDs rather than ghosting. That is probably related to a diode or short.

#7 8 years ago

I believe the problem is you purchased Non ghosting Bulbs....Correct?

Non Ghosting Bulbs, which come in at least 3 different methods of creation,
can have some flaky results with an OCD Board.

Can you try regular LEDs in those sockets?

#8 8 years ago

In the lamp matrix, Row 1 has the KEEP letters and movie multi-ball inserts as well as the shoot again light. Somewhere in those lights likely lies the problem.

Check to see if you bent a diode or something else shorting at each light socket.

#9 8 years ago

Usually when a bulb ghosts, it only comes on dimly, like 15% normal brightness. What you are showing looks like an actual wiring problem. That one white insert looks like it is on full blast (which would explain why LEDOCD and non-ghosting bulbs have no effect). Not sure it is really a ghosting issue.

#10 8 years ago

After looking again. I am guessing you have a problem at the Return of the King insert.

Also Lamp matrix Row 3, at the Mode Start insert.

Likely either bad or reversed diodes or a short.

#11 8 years ago

The problem is that any lamp in column 7 will ghost when a corresponding lamp in the same row is on.

Column 7 issue:
Return of the King is row 1 column 7, any lamp in row 1 being on will make this one ghost
Legolas is in row 2 column 7, any lamp in row 2 being on will make this one ghost

On row 3, it seems more than the LED's are lit up when they shouldn't be rather than flickering.

#12 8 years ago

^Your video is showing any lamp in Row 1 makes Return of the King light.
The video also shows any lamp in Row 3 makes Mode Start light.

It also looks like the Mode Start is lit all the time so that tells me there is likely a problem at that insert.

#13 8 years ago

Sorry, the video just showed the single column 7 lamp (Return of the King) as an issue, all lamps on column 7 have the same problem. When I recorded I put normal bulbs back in all of column 7 bar that one to demonstrate.

#14 8 years ago
Quoted from windoesnot:

Sorry, the video just showed the single column 7 lamp (Return of the King) as an issue, all lamps on column 7 have the same problem. When I recorded I put normal bulbs back in all of column 7 bar that one to demonstrate.

That is likely a problem caused at the Return of the King insert.

#15 8 years ago

Another video

This time, Return of the King and Legolas of column 7 have LED's and Mystery of row 3 has an LED (mode start is a regular bulb this time)

#16 8 years ago

In that video it looks like there may be a problem with Legolas insert, or maybe there is a short somewhere between the Legolas and ROTK inserts.

#17 8 years ago

To simplify things, I would remove the LED OCD board first to see if it results in the same issues.

#18 8 years ago

It happens to ALL inserts on column 7, not just those 2

When any lamp on row 1 is on, 1 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 2 is on, 2 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 3 is on, 3 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 4 is on, 4 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 5 is on, 5 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 6 is on, 6 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 7 is on, 7 / 7 will flicker
When any lamp on row 8 is on, 8 / 7 will flicker

#19 8 years ago

windoesnot, are you checking those diodes and wiring touching advice, DCFAN gave you?

#20 8 years ago

With the OCD board removed, the same problem happens but you also get the low level of ghosting that the board is designed to eliminate, so the OCD board is doing its job very well as far as that goes

I will look into the wiring / diodes tomorrow

#21 8 years ago

All it takes to cause a problem like this is a twisted or smushed diode. It is not that hard to accidentally do when changing bulbs.

#22 8 years ago

Whoa! All this activity while I was driving home!

I agree with what everyone else is saying. It does look like a short or diode issue. The simpler you can make things, the easier it will be to fix the problem. Removing the LED OCD while you are troubleshooting, then re-installing it after the major issue is resolved would be a good idea, IMO.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from windoesnot:

Hi all
Am having a problem with my new LOTR. Have put in a 2 SMD Premium 'non-ghosting' kit from pinball-led.co.uk and also an LED OCD board.
Everything looks fine apart from all lamps on row 3 and column 7 of the lamp matrix which are all suffering from terrible ghosting, no matter what settings I put my OCD board to.
Any suggestions?
Thanks

Mine has Cointaker premium Leds with no problems.

#24 8 years ago

This is not an led issue, and it is not led ghosting. It's very common for the game to appear to be ok with regular bulbs then exhibit this problem with leds. The issue is going to be one of several things and it's always hard to track down. Somewhere, electrical current is getting through the lamp matrix where it shouldn't. The following are possibilities you need to investigate:

1) diodes. Diodes are the sole solution to incorrect lamps lighting at the wrong times in your lamp matrix. Prior to leds, I've seen games where a bad diode was replaced and a jumper wire is used. Check for backwards diodes, broken diodes, but the most important one will be a 44 base the diode is touching the base.

2) Check your 44 bases in the lamp matrix. These twist easy over time as they age. The two prongs of the base could be touching on one bulb. Unfortunately, the bulb that is causing a the problems could be working fine and it's tough to troubleshoot.

3) check playfield leds that are wired via signs. Trying to think if lotr has any. I had a two bulb sign with wires in wrong order that caused all this in one game I fixed. The playfield signs usually have diodes elsewhere so it's misleading to rule them out. Incorrect wire order on these can be just like a diode being miswired.

4) Check the board transistors. A flaky or shorted transistor can keep a row or column lit when it shouldn't be.

Your problem is probably one issue that is causing everything to break. But it could be multiple issues. Stern has a fantastic lamp test screen. It is critical to use it. The row and col tests specifically are useful here as is the single lamp test. The numbers you want to use for debug are the lamp matrix numbers (row col) not the ordered lamp number. For example, the first lamp is 11 in the matrix and 1 in the ordered lamp list. 11 is useful 1 is not. Pull out your lamp matrix chart and make a complete pattern analysis. This might help you know where to focus your investigation. Sounds like you've done some of this. Not sure if you have done it thoroughly though.

This is one of the most frustrating and toughest problems to solve in game repair. It usually takes me 2-3 hours to track down and solve these issues. I've had it on over 10 games now and the cause has never been the same

Some of the most memorable causes of this issue I can remember are:
1) Star Trek next generation. Op replaced broken lamp diode with a wire. Owner told me game just didn't work with leds.
2) road show. Shirted row resistor caused the cities to be lit when shouldn't
3) shadow. And this was odd. Flaky power board caused the problem when not enough input voltage. If pin was on its own circuit it was fine when moved to a shared circuit it was not.
4) scarred stiff. Diode touching 44 base.
5) my lord of the rings. 44 lamp base touching a partially exposed wire.

#25 8 years ago

Would the best place to start looking be the lamp located at row 3 column 7, which is the palantir globe which is one of the few 44 bulbs in the lamp matrix? Will have a look when I get home from work tonight.

Thanks

#26 8 years ago

What is the best way to check the existing lamp diodes to see if they are fine or not other than visually checking them?
If I replace a diode does it matter which direction it is put into the IDC bulb holder?
Is there a specific method for removing the cable and diode from the IDC bulb holder and putting them back in?

Sorry for all the questions, still new to this pinball stuff

#27 8 years ago
Quoted from windoesnot:

What is the best way to check the existing lamp diodes to see if they are fine or not other than visually checking them?
If I replace a diode does it matter which direction it is put into the IDC bulb holder?
Is there a specific method for removing the cable and diode from the IDC bulb holder and putting them back in?
Sorry for all the questions, still new to this pinball stuff

Yes, the diode must be facing the correct direction.

#28 8 years ago

Think of a diode as a one-way valve in electronics. Current passing through the diode only flows in one direction (i.e., the forward direction, depicted by an arrow on the diode's schematic diagram, and physically towards the band on the end of the diode itself). Current trying to flow in the reverse direction is blocked, so orientation of the diode during installation is very important.

#29 8 years ago

The palantir globe does look like a good place to start.

One easy way to test whether a diode may be reversed or blown (shorted) is remove the bulb from the socket. Unless there is a short elsewhere, removing the bulb will make the circuit incomplete, and current will not be able to flow through it in the wrong direction.

I would avoid pulling any wires or diodes out of the IDC sockets unless you know there is a problem with them. You'll be risking more damage, and it's uncommon to have problems with those. The bayonet sockets, like the palantir globe, are a much more common cause.

#30 8 years ago

Ok thanks Herg

Just wanted to say too that there is a very nice improvement in the other LED's that suffer from the small of 'regular' ghosting when your OCD board is used on LOTR. Will try it out on Spiderman at some point too

#31 8 years ago

Ok, took out the palantir globe lamp, which funnily enough is on row 3 column 7 and all other lamps are absolutely fine now, so that's where the problem lies

#32 8 years ago

Sounds good. Take a good look at the socket and make sure there are no shorts; nothing touching something it shouldn't.

One other possibility there would be that the wires got reversed. It should be something like this:
yellow wire --- lamp --- diode (no band) -->|-- diode (band) --- red wire

The order of the lamp and diode won't matter, but the direction of the diode does.

If that all looks good, you might have a dead diode.

#33 8 years ago

Will check them tomorrow, I'm just glad to have gotten to the bottom of it so time to play a lot of LOTR tonight. Just want to say again how good a job the OCD board is doing too on the inserts, not cheap to import over to the UK by any means but certainly worth it for the results. You've done a good job with it Herg

#34 8 years ago

Thanks. I appreciate the compliment.

#35 8 years ago

Herg

When you say diode (band), do you mean the negative side?

By your diagram, the lamp goes like this:

Yellow wire -- lamp -- diode (no band) -- red wire -- diode (band)

The negative side of the diode is not on the same lug as the red wire

Thanks

#36 8 years ago

Yes. Technically, it's the cathode, but you can also think of it as the negative side or the end with the band (stripe).

The current needs to flow through the diode, and from your description, it sounds like it's not. Maybe it's time for another picture.

#37 8 years ago
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#39 8 years ago

Looks like your red wire is on the wrong terminal of the diode.

#40 8 years ago

If only I'd have seen that other thread first, thanks for linking it, looks oddly familiar

Time to do a spot of soldering

#41 8 years ago

All fixed now

Thanks to everyone for their kind help

#42 8 years ago

Congrats! Now go celebrate by Destroying the Ring!

#43 8 years ago

Mods please mark thread resolved.

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