(Topic ID: 137822)

Lost World; Wafer capacitors: " snubbers" . remove or not?

By crazybruce10

8 years ago


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#1 8 years ago

I saw a video on YouTube where at HAAG 2013 seminar some tech was saying that these should all be removed if found in games since they cause problems? Is this correct? Should I clip off all of these under playfield? image.jpgimage.jpg

#2 8 years ago

I think the cap is there to prevent a voltage spike bounce back and false switch trigger or multiple switch triggers.
When I had a game with the caps on them I replaced them if needed.

#3 8 years ago

If they are bad clipping them off will let it function,but not register hard hits. Replace for best performance.

#4 8 years ago

The caps are there to hold the line voltage for a short period after the switch closes. The old multiplexers couldn't scan the matrix fast enough.

When they start failing they trigger false switch hits. If you remove them entirely you'll probably have hits not register but the game is playable. Replace if you need to.

First rule though- if it's working, don't mess with it! Are these switches causing problems?

#5 8 years ago

I will be honest and say I really don't know if these are causing any problems. Right now I am in the testing everything stage and problems are intermittent. Sometimes sound is on, sometimes not, some lights work, some dont, some coils work , some don't, some do at certain times. It mostly looks like a lot of old or bad connections so there is a lot of work to be done. In the video the guy takes off some of these so I thought "if these are just extra things that don't have a purpose, then why not take them off?" but I thought there must be a reason for them to be there. There are also videos that indicate "right off the bat, change your capacitors on c23 and c26 on the solenoid driver board". So should I ? I have no idea if they are faulty or not or how that would even show itself if there was a problem. Waiting for new rectifier board to come in the mail then will start from that point onward. I don't have much electronic knowledge but trying to restore as best as possible so trying to figure which resistors, coils, etc is challenging. haven't really figured out how to read the schematics yet.

#6 8 years ago

These capacitors will only cause switch problems. If they short, they will give false hits. If they open (or are removed), the switch will work but the MPU will not be able to see really fast switch closures.

Your problems are elsewhere. Old capacitors, bad connectors, and the power supply need to be addressed with this era of Bally. If those aren't fixed first, you will be running in circles trying to solve problems.

#7 8 years ago

In my experiences, the decoupling caps usually always need to be replaced on old Bally games, especially the green ones. I believe they are .047uf most the time, it should list it in the schematic. Wouldn't hurt to replace them, spruce up your solder joints on switches at the same time. That, and ceramic disc caps are dirt cheap.

#8 8 years ago

its meant to be there. its there for a reason.

replace them if they dont work. reinstall if missing according to schematics.

you wont always find 0.047 now.. use 0.05.

#9 8 years ago

I have a few of this caps missing on my ballys star trek switch's ,the caps that are on there are .05 12 v can I use 0.1 50 v or
is 50 v too high

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from wiredoug:

its meant to be there. its there for a reason.
replace them if they dont work. reinstall if missing according to schematics.
you wont always find 0.047 now.. use 0.05.

Bassackwards. The obsolete originals are .05 and your replacements will be .047

Quoted from Raff:

I have a few of this caps missing on my ballys Star Trek switch's ,the caps that are on there are .05 12 v can I use 0.1 50 v or
is 50 v too high

50v or even 100v caps will work just fine.

#12 8 years ago

Yup.^--- may as well hit up Tayda for other crucials while you're at it. They stock SCRs too.

#13 8 years ago
Quoted from Raff:

I have a few of this caps missing on my ballys Star Trek switch's ,the caps that are on there are .05 12 v can I use 0.1 50 v or
is 50 v too high

It will simply make the delay longer on the debounce with 0.1uf, we're talking milliseconds though, so I guess it wouldn't hurt to try one. It all depends on the speed of the strobe really. I doubt it'll make much difference if that is what you have on hand, but I'm not 100% certain there.

#14 8 years ago
Quoted from balzofsteel:

Bassackwards. The obsolete originals are .05 and your replacements will be .047

50v or even 100v caps will work just fine.

Huh, I had this backwards too. Always saw .047s on these games. Must've been replaced several times over the life of the game.

Went to look for .047s recently and only found .05s in a cursory search, which "confirmed" my incorrect assumption.

My apologies for posting the inaccuracy.

PS: always replace these, don't just clip them off. Your game will cheat you out of switch hits!

#15 8 years ago

yes probably backwards.. the take home point is it doesnt matter which one you use

#16 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

...

Went to look for .047s recently and only found .05s in a cursory search...

PS: always replace these, don't just clip them off. Your game will cheat you out of switch hits!

If you found .05s they are probably as old as the game. Fresher stock will have numbers like .022 .033 .047 .056 .068 etc..

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=5

http://www.taydaelectronics.com/capacitors/ceramic-disc-capacitors.html?p=2

#17 8 years ago

Just put a order for 200 of them through the site vid posted and bought a few connectors too nice site
Raff

#18 8 years ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

PS: always replace these, don't just clip them off. Your game will cheat you out of switch hits!

On my bally star trek the 3 targets on the right the lly ,every time you hit them at a fast speed nothing would happen
i didnt think anything of it till i read this post so i thought i better have a look and had noticed the caps had been cut
off and yes thats what happens my game was cheating me of switch hits

#19 8 years ago

I ordered some from Mouser or Digikey (cant remember ) but they are cheap and worth replacing.

#20 8 years ago

Look at it this way, if Bally could have saved money by leaving them on off, then they would not be the there in the first place.
Replace ANY capacitor if it"s more than 10 years old, & always re-pin ALL of the connectors on early Bally SS pins. It's a lot of work, but will save your sanity in chasing down issues.

#21 8 years ago

Picked up 6 of this 0.047 50v caps from jaycar today, put them on where they were missing i cant belive the difference
no matter how fast that ball hits those targets score is on the board

#22 8 years ago
Quoted from dasvis:

Look at it this way, if Bally could have saved money by leaving them on off, then they would not be the there in the first place.
Replace ANY capacitor if it"s more than 10 years old, & always re-pin ALL of the connectors on early Bally SS pins. It's a lot of work, but will save your sanity in chasing down issues.

Only elecrolytics and sometime tantalums need to be replaced over time. No need with Ceramic & Poly caps.

#23 8 years ago
Quoted from thedefog:

Only elecrolytics and sometime tantalums need to be replaced over time. No need with Ceramic & Poly caps.

I wonder why these caps fail so often under the PF. Ceramic caps never fail on a cpu boards (well almost never). Perhaps the solenoids kicking on and off gets into these caps and damages them.

When i first got my mata hari a pop switch cap was making it machine gun. I replaced it with some generic cheap chinese cap. It failed again in like a month. I put a nice high quality (looking to me at least) high voltage rated cap and it still failed about another year or two later. I am on my 3rd cap on one switch in five years....

#24 8 years ago

Vibration and ceramic caps do not play nice together.....IMHO.

#25 8 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

Vibration and ceramic caps do not play nice together.....IMHO.

Makes sense to me!

#26 8 years ago

As with a lot of you tube videos some good info and some bad. I think that is some bad info. Unless he backed with service bulletin or other supporting facts.
The purpose of those caps is to hold the switch hit event so that quick hits are not missed while the switch matrix is scanning for events. Lots of meters now have cap function to measure the cap. If shorted your switch would be stuck closed. If opened you could have many missed hits. Replace if in doubt. But don't take them off.

#27 8 years ago

I read a boring tech article on caps and "thermal breakdown" was one reason for failure. Since the pinball caps see little heat from voltage its environment & installation is the only other source of heat. Its not an issue for a temp controlled iron but cutting short leads on a cap and using a hot iron could stress it. Similar to short diode legs and overheating it.

If you are replacing caps or other electronic components watch the heat and duration applied.

#28 8 years ago

Why would anyone not replace them if they cut them off

#29 8 years ago

Cutting them off will allow the switch to work if the cap is bad. It just won't work like it should. I guess if you did not have a replacement and still wanted to play folks would cut them.

#30 8 years ago
Quoted from Raff:

Why would anyone not replace them if they cut them off

Lazy repair guy.

They cut them off, now the switched worked.

They shrugged, and put the game back into service.

Only a pin tech would know what the caps were there for.

#31 8 years ago

image.jpgimage.jpg

Quoted from vid1900:Lazy repair guy.

I think that would be the answer

5 months later
#32 8 years ago

Old thread but applicable. The standup target on my Meteor doesn't always register hard fast hits. Will this work on old Sterns? I don't see why not as the system is practically the same but want to make sure.

#33 8 years ago

Yes. Your game will play completely differently...better...faster...stronger

#34 8 years ago
Quoted from SealClubber:

Will this work on old Sterns?

It worked for me with my Lectronamo. I replaced all the ceramic caps with the ones linked in this post, and it cleared up my intermittent switch issues without any problems. Hope this helps.

#35 8 years ago

OK thanks. I don't think any of my Sterns ever had caps on the switches but I am guessing they were cut off.

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