Lose ball with WOW lit??

(Topic ID: 208057)

Lose ball with WOW lit??


By amxman

9 months ago



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  • 69 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 months ago by amxman
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#6 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Was looking at WOW decagon unit and saw a old note wedged by the unit.
The note looks to be printed by Gottlieb, it matches the rest of machine. Thought it was interesting.
Note reads:
Inside SW.
Reset Completed.
Second SW.
Comp. CIR. To Subtract
"Ball Count" Unit.
Third SW.
Opens CIR. To SUB. Coil.
If what I'm reading is correct, when the "second" SW completes circuit it then subtracts "ball count".
Am I to assume the switch stack is what this note is talking about?
I will put some pictures up when I get a chance.

Yes, that label describes the three switches on the ratchet side of this stepper, which is called the "Litebox Advance Unit". Below is how those three switches should work.

Zero Position
First and second switch should be closed. Third switch should be open.

Any Position Above Zero (WOWs are lit)
First and second switch should be open. Third switch should be closed.

#10 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Ok, newbee question... first switch, is this the switch closest to the mount?

The first switch should be closest to the peg on the cam.

When the Litebox Advance Unit is completely reset, the peg should push against the first and second switch, closing them both. When the unit steps up, the peg will stop touching the first switch, causing the first and second switch to open and the third to close.

Litebox Advance Unit Switches

#14 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

How do you know by looking at the schematic that those are switches 1, 2, 3?

It’s a matter of deduction.

(1) The label on the Litebox Advance Unit says the inside switch (first switch) is the “Reset Completed” switch. If it’s reset, that means the unit is at the “zero position”, which is how it is labelled in the “Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

(2) The same label also says “Comp. CIR. To Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit Coil” for the second switch. Correspondingly, you can see a closed make-break switch in the “Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

(3) The same label also says “Open CIR. To Subtract Coil” for third switch. Because the label is on the Litebox Advance Unit, it is referring to its own subtraction coil. Correspondingly, you can see an open make-break switch in the “Subtract ‘Litebox Advance’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

Lastly, the switch state as they appear on the schematic—normally closed or normally open—reflect the game when it is fully reset, ready to play, and with the power cord disconnected. Bear that in mind when you see closed (NC) or open (NO) switch symbols in a circuit on a schematic.

#17 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I'm still studying the lightbox advance unit, I can find the wires, just need to understand why it looks like it should but is not working when on last WOW. I need to start identifying all the wires on the pins and how they work with the make/break switch.

Look at the ratchet side of the litebox advance unit. Here is how that switch stack should appear in its two states.

LAU (resized).jpg

Now that I’ve had an actual look at things, I realize my earlier diagram misidentified the second switch. That’s what I get for trusting my failing memory.

#27 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Here are pictures of the ball count switch, let me know if this is incorrect, lower picture is zero, upper picture is 1+ balls in play. From what I can tell it seems to be working just fine. The piece of thick material is starting to crack near the stack, can this be replaced with a new piece? I assume it can be but what is it called?

The two pegs represent the beginning and end of the ball count unit's stepping range. There should be six steps in between them. When you are at zero, a peg will press against the switch stack and change the switch states. When it steps up six times, the other peg should press against the other side of the switch stack, changing state.

It looks like the top photo might be a step too far. The switch shouldn't open that widely, which might be why the bakelite insulator (the “thick material”) is broken. In the other photo, the peg isn’t even touching the switch. Lastly, the two switches with the nylon riser (the white cylinder) between them shouldn’t have a gap. They should be touching.

Here are two pictures from the Ball Count Unit on my Lucky Hand. One is the zero position, the other at the sixth step.

Ball Count Unit

#28 9 months ago

FYI, it’s possible you were unable to get the Ball Count Unit to step all the way because it’s in the service position. The wire harness exerts pressure on the wiper board when the ball count unit is swiveled down. You might have to prop it up at 45 degrees to go through all six positions by hand.

#30 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I put paper between the switches, and found the second one to give me the result I was looking for. After thinking it through and playing with the action back and forth a few times, I come to the thought that maybe the ratchet is off very slightly. My thought is that while the wow subtract is energized the first action of the ratchet the switches advance subtracting a ball at this time. Is it possible to adjust this so the second action of the ratchet when the subtract is de-energized it wouldn't energize the switch subtracting the ball.
I also notice that your picture the "nth Position" in rest the pin is away from the switch stack, mine is just starting to touch the stack.
If this makes any sense let me know how this can be adjusted... it just seems like a timing issue.
Thoughts??

You may have uncovered the cause of your problem. That peg on the Lightbox Advance Unit should not be touching the switch at any position above zero. This can be corrected with a switch-adjusting tool.

#32 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Could I just add washer or maybe a thin piece of plastic to space the whole switch stack away from the pin on the ratchet wheel? I don't want to adjust 7 switch tabs, seeing how it would be my first try at it I don't want to mess it up.
I'm also going to check the mounting tab that the switches mount to, to make sure it is not bent somehow.

It is possible the mounting tab is bent, but it’s much more likely somebody misadjusted those switches to where they are now. Using artificial means (washer, spacers) to correct this problem is only an invitation to more problems in the future.

Switch blades were designed for adjustment, but you do need the right tools and technique. Do you have a switch adjustor? If not, a needle-nose pliers will also work. Whatever you use, be sure to do all bending at the point closest to the bakelite separators, at the bottom.

Here is a video that shows how to adjust the switches on an AX relay.

The switches you’re adjusting are much easier than the ones in the AX relay.

#34 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Hope you don't mind, but I am working on a ship ahoy also. I am at a point where, score reels go to zero, the ball count goes to 5 balls, but it does not stop trying to go farther. Stays on 5. Got any ideas on what contacts are not tripping? Thanks

It sounds like your game is resetting completely and you are able to play, it just stays on the fifth ball no matter how many times you drain. Is that correct?

#37 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Thanks guys, Here are 2 pics. of the ball count unit.On starting a game, score reels go to zero, ball count goes up to 5 balls, but the coil keeps firing, trying to still advance. Playfield lights are lit, the ball is in the trough, the flippers are dead. Looks like it's ready to play, but the coil continues to fire. Is there a switch on the motor that is not tripping? Thanks

Based on the appearance of the switch stack behind the Ball Count Unit, it looks like the unit is reset properly. The only thing that looks funny are the burn marks on the switch stack near the short jumper wire. The soldering work does not look like it was done by the factory.

I don’t have access to my schematic for Ship Ahoy right now, but you might want to check your AX relay for proper adjustment. It’s crucial the startup sequence on this game. It has several make-break switches that need to function correctly. The video posted above shows how it should work.

#39 9 months ago

I just looked at my schematic. It sounds like your game needs to finish the startup sequence by having the AXR coil fire. Here is the circuit that must complete in order for that to happen:

Ball count unit: sixth position rivet on wiper
Litebox advance unit: zero position switch
100k reel: zero position switch
10k reel: zero position switch
100s reel: zero position switch
10s reel: zero position switch
Score motor 2B switch
R relay switch

Most likely it is one of your score reels.

#41 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

O.K. I adjusted the ball count unit one more rivet, to 6 ball position. Now starting a game- score reels all go to zero, ball count goes down to 5 balls and kicks out a ball. But nothing on the play field scores. I will still check score motor 2B and R relay switch. THANKS

The fifth and sixth positions on the ball count unit give no power to the playfield. When the outhole throws the ball over to the shooter lane, the closing of the trough switch should step the ball count unit down to the fifth ball or third ball, which gives power to the playfield, but only if switches on TX and AX are adjusted correctly. Check on those two, especially AX.

#42 9 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

The fifth and sixth positions on the ball count unit give no power to the playfield. When the outhole throws the ball over to the shooter lane, the closing of the trough switch should step the ball count unit down to the fifth ball or third ball, which gives power to the playfield, but only if switches on TX and AX are adjusted correctly. Check on those two, especially AX.

One more thing: it’s a red-white wire that should travel through AX and TX. Where this wire is on both relays, check the switches.

#44 9 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Smart dude leckmeck! Thanks for sharing your knowledge, some day I hope to be able to help others as well as you.
I'm waiting on a switch adjustment tool and a new Decagon unit from Marco's to tune up my Ship Ahoy. I'll post when I adjust and if I have any comments to add I'll make sure to post them here.

Good luck! Glad I can help.

#50 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

The ball doesn't kick out on ball 6 (game start) so manually put ball in play, everything is good until ball drains, then nothing happens? I also have it set on Add A Ball -when it goes threw the spinner, where the yellow light stops, isn't that number to lite on the wheel?

It is strange that your game is scoring with the ball count unit (BCU) on the sixth position. My Lucky Hand is a blood relative: a Gottlieb AAB game with a BCU and litebox advance unit, as such it is wired very similarly to your Ship Ahoy. However, the playfield on Lucky Hand is dead if you try to put the ball into play with the BCU at the sixth position. I also had a Gottlieb Neptune that worked the same way. Ship Ahoy might be different, but I doubt it.

I would continue to focus on getting your game to start up fully and correctly. Getting the ball to kick out is the next thing to rectify.

#57 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Out hole switch and coil to switch arm.

The hole kicker coil (that kicks the ball out of the outhole) is fired by a switch on the score motor and a closed switch on the O relay, which is probably not energizing.

This should be the next thing you investigate: why is the O relay not energizing when the ball is in the outhole?

Do you have a schematic for Ship Ahoy?

#58 9 months ago

Double post, ignore.

#62 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

I think i'm learning schematics. I played a couple of games. The only thing is - I can get 100,000 lite to lite, but, no 200,000 or higher. Here is my schematic of this area. Please help me follow the path. Or suggestions to try. Thank you.

Ship Ahoy has two game modes: add-a-ball and novelty.

In add-a-ball mode, the litebox advance unit steps up each time you get a WOW, which illuminates those little flags on the backglass. When your score goes above 99k, the JX relay lights the 100k light, but that is the highest it goes.

In novelty mode, WOWs are worth 50k points instead of extra balls, so the wiring for the litebox advance unit is different. In this mode, it lights the lamps behind the 100k, 200k, 300k, etc. translucent areas for much higher scoring.

#64 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Thanks, Ship Ahoy is a great game. It's up and running then 100%. Sweet Thanks for all your help and expertise. Are you an Add a Ball fan also?

Glad to hear your game is working!

I’d say half my collection consists of AAB titles. They were kind of an infatuation when I began collecting because I lived in Wisconsin at the time.

#66 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Hey leckmeck, didn't you do a rehab on Dimension a while back, I also have a dimension. It's almost 100% working. Here's whats going on. Starting a new game, no targets reset. When you get the targets down, and the ball drains, then the targets reset. What contacts do you think are not connecting? Thank You!

My Dimension is still mid-restoration; I had to set it aside because of a large project at work.

But I can take a look at my schematic for you. I'll let you know if I see anything.

#67 9 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Hey leckmeck, didn't you do a rehab on Dimension a while back, I also have a dimension. It's almost 100% working. Here's whats going on. Starting a new game, no targets reset. When you get the targets down, and the ball drains, then the targets reset. What contacts do you think are not connecting? Thank You!

Have a look at this annotated schematic. The green lines are the path when the target banks reset during startup. The pink line is the path taken when draining the ball resets the targets. The blue path is circuit they share in common.

My hunch is you have a problem with the make-break switch on DB or the switches on the LB and AB armatures. These armatures are the switches on the other side of the sequence bank. They are operated by part number A-9032, a plate with a small round insulator upon which the switches rest. This insulator prevents the entire sequence bank from getting electrified with line voltage. On my Dimension, these insulators were missing and the switches did not work correctly. See attached picture of A-9032 from PBR’s website.

Dimension Schematic

A-9032

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