Lose ball with WOW lit??

(Topic ID: 208057)

Lose ball with WOW lit??


By amxman

6 months ago



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  • 69 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 months ago by amxman
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 69 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 6 months ago

For my Gottlieb Ship Ahoy pinball in add a ball or (WOW) mode for some reason if I have only one WOW flag lit I still lose a ball. If I have 2 or more WOW's lit I only lose the WOW. I would have thought that if I have a WOW lit I lose them until no more WOW's left, then I lose balls.

Is what I'm seeing in my game a problem or is it normal to lose a ball along with your last WOW?

If it is wrong I'm assuming I have something wrong with the WOW counter/stepper unit.

#2 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

For my Gottlieb Ship Ahoy pinball in add a ball or (WOW) mode for some reason if I have only one WOW flag lit I still lose a ball. If I have 2 or more WOW's lit I only lose the WOW. I would have thought that if I have a WOW lit I lose them until no more WOW's left, then I lose balls.
Is what I'm seeing in my game a problem or is it normal to lose a ball along with your last WOW?
If it is wrong I'm assuming I have something wrong with the WOW counter/stepper unit.

That's not right. The WOW stepper is mis-adjusted.

#3 6 months ago

Adjusting the WOW stepper, I'm thinking it only needs a very small adjustment correct? I wouldn't want to turn it to a entirely different point, that would change the "WOW" credit's right?

Does anyone know which point or contact determines loss of ball or keep ball/loss of WOW??

And I just loosen the three screws(or maybe two, I forget) and turn the contacting plate?

#4 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Adjusting the WOW stepper, I'm thinking it only needs a very small adjustment correct? I wouldn't want to turn it to a entirely different point, that would change the "WOW" credit's right?
Does anyone know which point or contact determines loss of ball or keep ball/loss of WOW??
And I just loosen the three screws(or maybe two, I forget) and turn the contacting plate?

Use the schematic/wiring diagram to trace the circuit and fix the switch/contact that is closing too early.
If you don't have one, buy it from The Pinball Resource. You will need it again and again.

#5 6 months ago

Was looking at WOW decagon unit and saw a old note wedged by the unit.

The note looks to be printed by Gottlieb, it matches the rest of machine. Thought it was interesting.

Note reads:

Inside SW.
Reset Completed.
Second SW.
Comp. CIR. To Subtract
"Ball Count" Unit.
Third SW.
Opens CIR. To SUB. Coil.

If what I'm reading is correct, when the "second" SW completes circuit it then subtracts "ball count".

Am I to assume the switch stack is what this note is talking about?

I will put some pictures up when I get a chance.

#6 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Was looking at WOW decagon unit and saw a old note wedged by the unit.
The note looks to be printed by Gottlieb, it matches the rest of machine. Thought it was interesting.
Note reads:
Inside SW.
Reset Completed.
Second SW.
Comp. CIR. To Subtract
"Ball Count" Unit.
Third SW.
Opens CIR. To SUB. Coil.
If what I'm reading is correct, when the "second" SW completes circuit it then subtracts "ball count".
Am I to assume the switch stack is what this note is talking about?
I will put some pictures up when I get a chance.

Yes, that label describes the three switches on the ratchet side of this stepper, which is called the "Litebox Advance Unit". Below is how those three switches should work.

Zero Position
First and second switch should be closed. Third switch should be open.

Any Position Above Zero (WOWs are lit)
First and second switch should be open. Third switch should be closed.

#7 6 months ago

Ok, newbee question... first switch, is this the switch closest to the mount? Or what determines 1-2-3? I want to make sure I'm looking at this thing correctly.

I want to try and scan in my schematic then highlight where I think I should be looking. I'm still learning but the whole Litebox to ball count unit throws me for a loop, I seem to be following circuits in circles and don't know what starts or ends the loop per say. I know its simple, I just get lost when I try and figure it out.

#8 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I want to try and scan in my schematic then highlight where I think I should be looking

Staples will do a high quality scan for $2, or Kinkos will for $6

#9 6 months ago

Ok went to Office Max... not to excited about the quality but I outlined where I think I should be looking.

I need to know how to find what decides when to subtract a ball. And when I do find it on schematic, finding it on machine will be my second challenge.

InkedLightboxUnit_LI (resized).jpg

#10 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Ok, newbee question... first switch, is this the switch closest to the mount?

The first switch should be closest to the peg on the cam.

When the Litebox Advance Unit is completely reset, the peg should push against the first and second switch, closing them both. When the unit steps up, the peg will stop touching the first switch, causing the first and second switch to open and the third to close.

Litebox Advance Unit Switches

#11 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Ok went to Office Max... not to excited about the quality

How much did they charge you? I agree about the quality.

#12 6 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

The first switch should be closest to the peg on the cam.
When the Litebox Advance Unit is completely reset, the peg should push against the first and second switch, closing them both. When the unit steps up, the peg will stop touching the first switch, causing the first and second switch to open and the third to close.

How do you know by looking at the schematic that those are switches 1, 2, 3?

At least I was able to find where to look, I just don't understand where it begins and the "flow".

I will look at this and report back.

#13 6 months ago
Quoted from HowardR:

How much did they charge you? I agree about the quality.

A little over 4 bucks. I'm going to go back and ask for higher resolution, kinda crazy how blurry it came out. It looked good on "his" screen when he zoomed in....

#14 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

How do you know by looking at the schematic that those are switches 1, 2, 3?

It’s a matter of deduction.

(1) The label on the Litebox Advance Unit says the inside switch (first switch) is the “Reset Completed” switch. If it’s reset, that means the unit is at the “zero position”, which is how it is labelled in the “Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

(2) The same label also says “Comp. CIR. To Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit Coil” for the second switch. Correspondingly, you can see a closed make-break switch in the “Subtract ‘Ball Count’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

(3) The same label also says “Open CIR. To Subtract Coil” for third switch. Because the label is on the Litebox Advance Unit, it is referring to its own subtraction coil. Correspondingly, you can see an open make-break switch in the “Subtract ‘Litebox Advance’ Unit” circuit on the schematic.

Lastly, the switch state as they appear on the schematic—normally closed or normally open—reflect the game when it is fully reset, ready to play, and with the power cord disconnected. Bear that in mind when you see closed (NC) or open (NO) switch symbols in a circuit on a schematic.

#15 6 months ago

Went back to Office Max and told them I want higher resolution and that the previous one got blurry when zoomed in. They did it again at no charge. Looks better! Should have rotated it for you guys.

I'm still studying the lightbox advance unit, I can find the wires, just need to understand why it looks like it should but is not working when on last WOW. I need to start identifying all the wires on the pins and how they work with the make/break switch.

Lightboxunit1.pdf

#16 6 months ago

Can you email me a complete copy?

#17 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I'm still studying the lightbox advance unit, I can find the wires, just need to understand why it looks like it should but is not working when on last WOW. I need to start identifying all the wires on the pins and how they work with the make/break switch.

Look at the ratchet side of the litebox advance unit. Here is how that switch stack should appear in its two states.

LAU (resized).jpg

Now that I’ve had an actual look at things, I realize my earlier diagram misidentified the second switch. That’s what I get for trusting my failing memory.

#18 6 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

Look at the ratchet side of the litebox advance unit. Here is how that switch stack should appear in its two states.

Now that I’ve had an actual look at things, I realize my earlier diagram misidentified the second switch. That’s what I get for trusting my failing memory.

I looked at mine, it looks correct in both positions. I cleaned all the contacts in the switch stack(with 1000 grit sandpaper).

Where should I look next?

#19 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I looked at mine, it looks correct in both positions. I cleaned all the contacts in the switch stack(with 1000 grit sandpaper).
Where should I look next?

In Position"1" (Note: NOT "zero" position): slide a piece of paper between all "closed" switches on the stack. If the Balls to play now does not decrement/end game if on 1 ball to play, You have verified a switch mis-adjustment on the stack. Let us know.

#20 6 months ago

Instead of looking at the switches isn't it probably that the wiper Bakelite (that has the snow shoe wipers riding on the rivers) is advanced by 1 position thereby lighting the first WOW light when the stepper is actually at position zero?

#21 6 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Instead of looking at the switches isn't it probably that the wiper Bakelite (that has the snow shoe wipers riding on the rivers) is advanced by 1 position thereby lighting the first WOW light when the stepper is actually at position zero?

The wipers operate the appropriate WOW lights on the backglass. The switch stack controls game play as far as allowing or preventing the Balls to Play unit to decrement upon a ball goint into the outhole.. They also are part of the reset circuit if the game ends due to a tilt or power off during game play.

#22 6 months ago
Quoted from MrBally:

The wipers operate the appropriate WOW lights on the backglass. The switch stack controls game play as far as allowing or preventing the Balls to Play unit to decrement upon a ball goint into the outhole.. They also are part of the reset circuit if the game ends due to a tilt or power off during game play.

But if you read the original post, the only operation problem being exhibited is that the first Wow is lit, but the game acts as if no wows are
lit. If two wows are lit, it behaves as if one wow is lit.

What the original post doesn't clearly indicate is if the first WOW flag is always lit, or if it actually goes away with the start of a game.

#23 6 months ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

But if you read the original post, the only operation problem being exhibited is that the first Wow is lit, but the game acts as if no wows are
lit. If two wows are lit, it behaves as if one wow is lit.
What the original post doesn't clearly indicate is if the first WOW flag is always lit, or if it actually goes away with the start of a game.

I'm guessing it is the second scenario you listed. Which would explain that the switches are misadjusted or at least one of them is in relationship to the wiper position /ratchet position.

#24 6 months ago

No when game is reset there are no wows lit. After game play you acquire a wow like normal, but if you only get one wow and loose the ball you loose both the wow and a ball.

#25 6 months ago

I'm going to try the paper to physically break connections and see if there is a problem there, again everything looks to be correct with the switch stack.

#26 6 months ago

Here are pictures of the ball count switch, let me know if this is incorrect, lower picture is zero, upper picture is 1+ balls in play. From what I can tell it seems to be working just fine. The piece of thick material is starting to crack near the stack, can this be replaced with a new piece? I assume it can be but what is it called?

ballcount (resized).JPG

DSC05413 (resized).JPG

#27 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Here are pictures of the ball count switch, let me know if this is incorrect, lower picture is zero, upper picture is 1+ balls in play. From what I can tell it seems to be working just fine. The piece of thick material is starting to crack near the stack, can this be replaced with a new piece? I assume it can be but what is it called?

The two pegs represent the beginning and end of the ball count unit's stepping range. There should be six steps in between them. When you are at zero, a peg will press against the switch stack and change the switch states. When it steps up six times, the other peg should press against the other side of the switch stack, changing state.

It looks like the top photo might be a step too far. The switch shouldn't open that widely, which might be why the bakelite insulator (the “thick material”) is broken. In the other photo, the peg isn’t even touching the switch. Lastly, the two switches with the nylon riser (the white cylinder) between them shouldn’t have a gap. They should be touching.

Here are two pictures from the Ball Count Unit on my Lucky Hand. One is the zero position, the other at the sixth step.

Ball Count Unit

#28 6 months ago

FYI, it’s possible you were unable to get the Ball Count Unit to step all the way because it’s in the service position. The wire harness exerts pressure on the wiper board when the ball count unit is swiveled down. You might have to prop it up at 45 degrees to go through all six positions by hand.

#29 6 months ago

I put paper between the switches, and found the second one to give me the result I was looking for. After thinking it through and playing with the action back and forth a few times, I come to the thought that maybe the ratchet is off very slightly. My thought is that while the wow subtract is energized the first action of the ratchet the switches advance subtracting a ball at this time. Is it possible to adjust this so the second action of the ratchet when the subtract is de-energized it wouldn't energize the switch subtracting the ball.

I also notice that your picture the "nth Position" in rest the pin is away from the switch stack, mine is just starting to touch the stack.

If this makes any sense let me know how this can be adjusted... it just seems like a timing issue.

Thoughts??

switch (resized).jpg

#30 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

I put paper between the switches, and found the second one to give me the result I was looking for. After thinking it through and playing with the action back and forth a few times, I come to the thought that maybe the ratchet is off very slightly. My thought is that while the wow subtract is energized the first action of the ratchet the switches advance subtracting a ball at this time. Is it possible to adjust this so the second action of the ratchet when the subtract is de-energized it wouldn't energize the switch subtracting the ball.
I also notice that your picture the "nth Position" in rest the pin is away from the switch stack, mine is just starting to touch the stack.
If this makes any sense let me know how this can be adjusted... it just seems like a timing issue.
Thoughts??

You may have uncovered the cause of your problem. That peg on the Lightbox Advance Unit should not be touching the switch at any position above zero. This can be corrected with a switch-adjusting tool.

#31 6 months ago

Could I just add washer or maybe a thin piece of plastic to space the whole switch stack away from the pin on the ratchet wheel? I don't want to adjust 7 switch tabs, seeing how it would be my first try at it I don't want to mess it up.

I'm also going to check the mounting tab that the switches mount to, to make sure it is not bent somehow.

#32 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Could I just add washer or maybe a thin piece of plastic to space the whole switch stack away from the pin on the ratchet wheel? I don't want to adjust 7 switch tabs, seeing how it would be my first try at it I don't want to mess it up.
I'm also going to check the mounting tab that the switches mount to, to make sure it is not bent somehow.

It is possible the mounting tab is bent, but it’s much more likely somebody misadjusted those switches to where they are now. Using artificial means (washer, spacers) to correct this problem is only an invitation to more problems in the future.

Switch blades were designed for adjustment, but you do need the right tools and technique. Do you have a switch adjustor? If not, a needle-nose pliers will also work. Whatever you use, be sure to do all bending at the point closest to the bakelite separators, at the bottom.

Here is a video that shows how to adjust the switches on an AX relay.

The switches you’re adjusting are much easier than the ones in the AX relay.

#33 6 months ago

Hope you don't mind, but I am working on a ship ahoy also. I am at a point where, score reels go to zero, the ball count goes to 5 balls, but it does not stop trying to go farther. Stays on 5. Got any ideas on what contacts are not tripping? Thanks

#34 6 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Hope you don't mind, but I am working on a ship ahoy also. I am at a point where, score reels go to zero, the ball count goes to 5 balls, but it does not stop trying to go farther. Stays on 5. Got any ideas on what contacts are not tripping? Thanks

It sounds like your game is resetting completely and you are able to play, it just stays on the fifth ball no matter how many times you drain. Is that correct?

#35 6 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Hope you don't mind, but I am working on a ship ahoy also. I am at a point where, score reels go to zero, the ball count goes to 5 balls, but it does not stop trying to go farther. Stays on 5. Got any ideas on what contacts are not tripping? Thanks

Give us a little more info. Is this when you restart the game? If so, try manually advancing the ball unit, make sure its moving freely. Make sure all the rivets are clean, I clean them with rubbing alcohol... make sure you let it dry and air out, you don't want a fire. Also look at all the sprung contacts between the two reels, when the ball count advances make sure they are making contact with their respective rivet.

I had a problem with my ship ahoy getting stuck in a reset and it seemed the problem was bad connections on the ball count unit.

#36 6 months ago

Thanks guys, Here are 2 pics. of the ball count unit.On starting a game, score reels go to zero, ball count goes up to 5 balls, but the coil keeps firing, trying to still advance. Playfield lights are lit, the ball is in the trough, the flippers are dead. Looks like it's ready to play, but the coil continues to fire. Is there a switch on the motor that is not tripping? Thanks

201802109509044095Burst01 (resized).jpg

201802109509055695Burst01 (1) (resized).jpg

#37 6 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

Thanks guys, Here are 2 pics. of the ball count unit.On starting a game, score reels go to zero, ball count goes up to 5 balls, but the coil keeps firing, trying to still advance. Playfield lights are lit, the ball is in the trough, the flippers are dead. Looks like it's ready to play, but the coil continues to fire. Is there a switch on the motor that is not tripping? Thanks

Based on the appearance of the switch stack behind the Ball Count Unit, it looks like the unit is reset properly. The only thing that looks funny are the burn marks on the switch stack near the short jumper wire. The soldering work does not look like it was done by the factory.

I don’t have access to my schematic for Ship Ahoy right now, but you might want to check your AX relay for proper adjustment. It’s crucial the startup sequence on this game. It has several make-break switches that need to function correctly. The video posted above shows how it should work.

#38 6 months ago

Thanks, the burn marks are from me, I disassembled the stack to reverse the spacer switch, to try. That wasn't it. I thought it could be, the wiper needs to travel one more rivet? But I will look at the AX relay. Thanks

#39 6 months ago

I just looked at my schematic. It sounds like your game needs to finish the startup sequence by having the AXR coil fire. Here is the circuit that must complete in order for that to happen:

Ball count unit: sixth position rivet on wiper
Litebox advance unit: zero position switch
100k reel: zero position switch
10k reel: zero position switch
100s reel: zero position switch
10s reel: zero position switch
Score motor 2B switch
R relay switch

Most likely it is one of your score reels.

#40 6 months ago

O.K. I adjusted the ball count unit one more rivet, to 6 ball position. Now starting a game- score reels all go to zero, ball count goes down to 5 balls and kicks out a ball. But nothing on the play field scores. I will still check score motor 2B and R relay switch. THANKS

#41 6 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

O.K. I adjusted the ball count unit one more rivet, to 6 ball position. Now starting a game- score reels all go to zero, ball count goes down to 5 balls and kicks out a ball. But nothing on the play field scores. I will still check score motor 2B and R relay switch. THANKS

The fifth and sixth positions on the ball count unit give no power to the playfield. When the outhole throws the ball over to the shooter lane, the closing of the trough switch should step the ball count unit down to the fifth ball or third ball, which gives power to the playfield, but only if switches on TX and AX are adjusted correctly. Check on those two, especially AX.

#42 6 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

The fifth and sixth positions on the ball count unit give no power to the playfield. When the outhole throws the ball over to the shooter lane, the closing of the trough switch should step the ball count unit down to the fifth ball or third ball, which gives power to the playfield, but only if switches on TX and AX are adjusted correctly. Check on those two, especially AX.

One more thing: it’s a red-white wire that should travel through AX and TX. Where this wire is on both relays, check the switches.

#43 6 months ago
Quoted from leckmeck:

The fifth and sixth positions on the ball count unit give no power to the playfield. When the outhole throws the ball over to the shooter lane, the closing of the trough switch should step the ball count unit down to the fifth ball or third ball, which gives power to the playfield, but only if switches on TX and AX are adjusted correctly. Check on those two, especially AX.

Smart dude leckmeck! Thanks for sharing your knowledge, some day I hope to be able to help others as well as you.

I'm waiting on a switch adjustment tool and a new Decagon unit from Marco's to tune up my Ship Ahoy. I'll post when I adjust and if I have any comments to add I'll make sure to post them here.

#44 6 months ago
Quoted from amxman:

Smart dude leckmeck! Thanks for sharing your knowledge, some day I hope to be able to help others as well as you.
I'm waiting on a switch adjustment tool and a new Decagon unit from Marco's to tune up my Ship Ahoy. I'll post when I adjust and if I have any comments to add I'll make sure to post them here.

Good luck! Glad I can help.

#45 6 months ago

Yes, Thank you very much for your knowledge and help. The frustration today has won out. Tomorrow I will attack again. Thank you

#46 6 months ago

I start a game- ball count goes to 6. Ball doesn't eject. I can manually put a ball in play and it scores, all is well. Ball drains, does not eject, so I manually put ball in game and no score or flipper action? Also, isn't the spinner supposed to lite numbers on the wheel? Thanks

#47 6 months ago

Numbers on the wheel only light up when you hit that corresponding number on the field. The smaller yellow lights spin with the target spinner, depending on how your game is set to play, you can light the number it lands on after it spins.

As for the ball not ejecting, check the switches that sense the ball drain, the ball count switch is somewhere along the track the ball is ejected on. You can reach this just by opening the coin door. Sometimes I have to touch that switch to get the game to either start or to cycle it to "game over" then reset.

#48 6 months ago

If the yellow lights don't spin with the target spinner, check the relay/geared mini stepper unit. This is located on the underside of playfield, about mid board along the left side(facing game normal). Do be careful with this mini stepper, I heard they can be sensitive, make sure it advances and isn't sluggish. Also you can carefully clean the contacts on the stepper. And make sure the spinner is contacting its switch on its upstroke(doubt that's the problem).

#49 6 months ago

The ball doesn't kick out on ball 6 (game start) so manually put ball in play, everything is good until ball drains, then nothing happens? I also have it set on Add A Ball -when it goes threw the spinner, where the yellow light stops, isn't that number to lite on the wheel?

#50 6 months ago
Quoted from Bee-barf:

The ball doesn't kick out on ball 6 (game start) so manually put ball in play, everything is good until ball drains, then nothing happens? I also have it set on Add A Ball -when it goes threw the spinner, where the yellow light stops, isn't that number to lite on the wheel?

It is strange that your game is scoring with the ball count unit (BCU) on the sixth position. My Lucky Hand is a blood relative: a Gottlieb AAB game with a BCU and litebox advance unit, as such it is wired very similarly to your Ship Ahoy. However, the playfield on Lucky Hand is dead if you try to put the ball into play with the BCU at the sixth position. I also had a Gottlieb Neptune that worked the same way. Ship Ahoy might be different, but I doubt it.

I would continue to focus on getting your game to start up fully and correctly. Getting the ball to kick out is the next thing to rectify.

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