Loosing a ball without points made - same ball given (?) | EM Pinball Hangout

0

#1 6 years ago

OP

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi pinsiders
I started playing pins in the very late 1960ies, From there I had some believes - thinking to be facts --- after many years I have found "not true, false":

"Believe-1" - in a 4-Player-Pin when tilting: ONLY THIS Ball is lost. Well, yes many such pins act this way --- BUT, example Gottlieb "Liberty Belle" tilts THIS Player.

"Believe-2" - in a Bally and Williams pin with the (1970ies) upright Score-Motor: These Score-Motors are built TOTALLY 180-degree SYMMETRICAL. Well, yes many are built symmetrical --- BUT, example Bally "Night Rider" http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=1677 cam-12 is asymmetrical (see in the ipdb-schematics at A-1,2 / B-1,2 - also see http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=File:BallyScoreMotor3-4View.jpg the Score-Motor is at home but the outmost-right cam is asymmetrical).

"Believe-3" - I assume You know and maybe love it: In a Gottlieb pin when the FIRST Player looses Ball-ONE without making points: SAME Ball given. In a Bally / Williams (only in Four-Players ?) Pin: EVERY Ball lost without making points: SAME Ball given.
I believed this to be a fact on Bally / Williams --- BUT example Williams 1967 "Shangri La" http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2110 , ipdb-schematics, page-5 at 20/21-D a Trough-Switch is drawn --- to make the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in (((so a 'lost ball not made points': Steps to next player / next ball))).
I looked it up in my "Shangri La" - an preowner / operator at the time has BENT this switch to "beeing always open, never making the Ball-Index-Relay to pull-in". In the old times I played many "Shangri La" on various locations --- ALL must have been manipulated this way - ALL gave same ball again when loosing a ball - not making points (((Today I have adjusted the switch - for a test - have adjusted this switch to operating - but decided and done: Bent (again) so it stays open all the time)))

My questions: Do You have an Williams 1960ies (Four Player) pin having such an Trough-Switch to activate the Ball-Index-Relay - not to "give same ball" ? Do You know the "Years of having this Trough-Switch" ? Did You manipulate this Trough-Switch to stay always open to have the lovely feature "EVERY Ball lost without making points: SAME Ball given" ? Greetings Rolf

0

#2 6 years ago

SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,802

I believe on the A Go Go I just went thru, the trough switch is what's used to advance the player or ball count unit, and if it was always open the game would not work right. I'd have to look at it again to make sure.

On most of my 60s Williams, tilt ends that players game, but not on the later 60s games.

0

#3 6 years ago

OP

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi o-din
thanks for writing.
The "problem" is: Once the manufacturers made 4-Player-Pins: 99.99% of the pins imported into Switzerland were 4-Player-Pins. So One-Player-Pins I "know" only from pinside.

I did not want to overload my post-1 --- I did not write it - this: Looking through the ipdb-schematics "Williams", Pot 'O' Gold, June 1965: not sure --- Big Chief, Sept 65: No Trough-Switch --- an "Gate-Switch makes the Ball-Index-Relay quit pulling" --- 8-Ball, Jan 66: Ball Through Switch in combination with Game-Relay --- Full House, March 66: NO Trough Switch --- ONLY the 10-point-relay makes the Ball-Index-Relay pull-in --- A-Go-Go, May 66: Has Trough-Switch --- Hot Line, Sept 66: Has Trough-Switch --- Casanova, Nov 66: not a Trough-Switch but an Small-Ball-Relay (?) --- Magic City, Jan 67: No Trough-Switch - only the 100 point relay ... --- my Shangri-La, March 67: Has Trough-Switch --- my Jolly Roger: No Trough-Switch --- but we MUST make some points, see http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=1314&picno=13383

I looked-up "A-Go-Go, ipdb-schematics" - IF (if, if) You sneak-in a stripe of paper in-between the contact-points on the Trough-Switch: You should be able to launch a ball, loose the ball NOT making a point --- SAME ball is given.

"Believe-4" - Every 1970ies Williams has the "pressing the left Flipper-Button turns on the lights feature". As a youngster on locations I never toggled-on / toggled-off pins. The "Believe-4" started when I started "owning and fixing pins" (2007) --- but about 2011 I bought the "late" "Big Deal": Big Deal still has the Lock-Relay (to eventually TRIP an (faulty) latched Game-Over-Relay), but no longer has the "turn-on the lights" feature in pressing the left Flipper-Button. Greetings Rolf

0

#4 6 years ago

SBS

o-din

Pinside+ Addict

11y 158K 58,802

OP
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Every 1970ies Williams has the "pressing the left Flipper-Button turns on the lights feature".

Most 60s Williams do as well. I think it was a good feature because the game would be ready to play, but the lights would stay off until somebody actually did play a game or hit the left flipper. That would at least help preserve the backglass and playfield plastics.

0

#5 6 years ago

BIF

CactusJack

Pinside member

Lake Forest, CA

10y 80,050 4,200 93

Believe-3 : Although you may know this, but did not mention it: On most 70's Gottlieb multiplayers, only the 10 points and 100 points are monitored for "Air Balls". You can still score 1000 points and the game not advance to the next ball or player. Especially good on Jungle/Wild Life. You can go down center top roll over which lights pop bumper for 1000. Score multiple 1000's and, as long as the 10 point spinner doesn't move enough to score points, allow the ball to drain and repeat!!

On Single player Gottlieb games, there is no such thing as an Air ball. Once the ball is served across the trough switch, each time the ball hits that trough switch, the ball count will be advanced.

Also, some 60's Bally games won't enable the flippers until you roll under the top arch gate flap (there is a hidden switch). They re-used the roll under flap with switch from their Bingo line of parts. This is commonly the flap gate that has the large metal box cover next to it. But the presence of that box does not mean there is a functional switch below it.

0

#6 6 years ago

DOC

drsfmd

Pinside member

10y 76,550 3,156 108

OP
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
In a Bally / Williams (only in Four-Players ?) Pin: EVERY Ball lost without making points: SAME Ball given.

Finally a chance to offer advice to @rolf_martin_062, who has been so incredibly generous in offering advice to me!

I can only speak to the machines that I have, as I truthfully can't ever remember *needing* this feature when playing. So, to test your theory, I pulled the glass from each of my machines that fall into these parameters and tested them.

#gold-rush (Bally, 1966, 1 player) does NOT have this feature.
Fun-Fest (Williams, 1973, 4 player) DOES have this feature.
Little Chief (Williams, 1975, 4 player) DOES have this feature.
Blue Chip (Williams, 1976, 1 player) does NOT have this feature.

0

#7 6 years ago

OP

RM

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi drsfmd
thanks for "looking up" in Your pins. Most important on this feature: When we have a problem in our pin and we are troubleshooting --- We shall not try to have the pin step to next player / next ball WITHOUT making some points ...

I know I have this feature in my 4-Player-Pins (Williams: EVERY Ball, Gottlieb: Only first-Player-first-Ball) - and I again have bent the switchblade on the "Trough-Switch on Shangri La" so the switch stays open all the time (to have the feature) --- I rarely use the feature as I happen to have some Gottlieb pins - so I always would have to think about: Do I play a Williams or a Gottlieb - which ball am I playing ...

Another thing I had to learn about: ONE-Player-Pins are NOT "cheap 4-player-pins reduced to One-Player (costs)" --- ONE-Player-Pins may have a more complex rule-set as they can carry-over stuff from a ball to the next, next, next ball. (Again: 99.99% of the pins I have seen in Switzerland: 4-Player-Pins).

drsfmd --- the last problem You had on "Blue Chip": That was fun (when we can say "faults may be fun"). Greetings Rolf