(Topic ID: 323633)

Looking for some help troubleshooting Bally MPU LED

By Enochsmoken

5 months ago


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  • 45 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by Quench
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 5 months ago

Looking for some help troubleshooting Bally MPU LED continuously on, no flashing. I'm using the Bally F.O. 560-1 repair procedure. I have 4.2 volts on pin 2 of U9 and the procedure says there should be 2.8V. Is the the 4.2V too high? I've tried a couple of different U9's, still getting 4.2V.
Thanks,
Brad

#2 5 months ago

Try using Pinwiki - I trust it a bit more than the Bally procedure book - there have been several revisions to that book, not sure what the revisions were for.

#3 5 months ago

Locked on LED is the most difficulty issue to fix. Start here. https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Bally/Stern

#4 5 months ago

Unless it's a typo, pin 2 of U9 should be around 4.8V and if you're getting 4.2V that would still be in range for a TTL circuit.

Post some nice clear pictures of the board.

#5 5 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Unless it's a typo, pin 2 of U9 should be around 4.8V and if you're getting 4.2V that would still be in range for a TTL circuit.
Post some nice clear pictures of the board.

My bad it is U9 pin 5. Procedure says 2.8V I'm getting 4.2V.

MPU -35 (resized).JPG
#6 5 months ago

Is 4.2V too high for pin 5?

#7 5 months ago

I did a little research and found that the acceptable TTL input signal is 2 - 5V. And output is 2.7 - 5V. So I’m assuming that 2.8V is okay for both?

#8 5 months ago

4.2V is indicating there's no activity on that signal.

Pin 5 of the CPU is the "VMA" (Valid Memory Address) signal. When the CPU wants to access RAM, ROM or the PIAs, it puts their address on the bus and places the VMA signal high once the address bus has stabilised so the devices are sure they're being accessed. After the access period the VMA signal goes low.

In other words, pin 5 does not sit at one steady voltage. It's always pulsing. Placing a multimeter on the signal just gives you an average voltage reading.

The AMI brand of CPUs, PIAs and RAM from this period have a high failure rate. First thing you should try and do is swap the AMI CPU for a good brand part.
BTW are you getting about 5 volts on pin 40 (/RESET pin)?
What happens if you really quickly short pin 39 to pin 40 on the CPU causing a manual board reset?

#9 5 months ago

By the way, were the socket replacements done before or after the board died?
The board has copper though the boards socket holes connecting the top solder pads to the bottom solder pads. These also route signal traces between the top and bottom of the board.
I'm not saying you've done it but the copper through holes will get ripped out if the old sockets were forcefully removed. It only takes one of those copper through holes to disconnect a top layer signal from the bottom layer signal causing a dead locked on LED board. Meticulous testing of every pin then needs to be done.

#10 5 months ago

Quench, thanks for jumping in. I’m at work right now and won’t be able to Check the voltages until 1500 ET. I changed out sockets. I used solder tweezers to pluck them out. I don’t think I did any damage but I could have. When I get home I’ll check those voltages. Thanks again

BRAD

#11 5 months ago

Pin 40 has 5.3V, and when I short 39 and 40 I don't see any changes.

Brad

#12 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Pin 40 has 5.3V, and when I short 39 and 40 I don't see any changes.

So it's not a reset circuit issue.

Have you determined if the clock circuits to the U9 CPU are working? They give the CPU "consciousness".
The CPU then needs address, data and control signal integrity to the U6 ROM and U11 PIA in order to kickstart and switch the LED off for the power-on flicker.

#13 5 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

So it's not a reset circuit issue.
Have you determined if the clock circuits to the U9 CPU are working? They give the CPU "consciousness".
The CPU then needs address, data and control signal integrity to the U6 ROM and U11 PIA in order to kickstart and switch the LED off for the power-on flicker.

Do any of the dip switches or jumpers need to be configured to a certain game? I don't know what this board came out of, I'm just trying to fix it.

Thanks

#14 5 months ago

Are the clock signals on U9 pins 3 and 37? If so, here are the signals I saw on those two pins. If those are pulses, they're approximately 4.5V. If it's a square wave, then 2.57V and the freq is 533Khz. Let me know.
Thanks

PIN 3 (resized).JPGPIN 37 (resized).JPG
#15 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Are the clock signals on U9 pins 3 and 37? If so, here are the signals I saw on those two pins. If those are pulses, they're approximately 4.5V. If it's a square wave, then 2.57V and the freq is 533Khz. Let me know.
Thanks

Square wave with a frequency of 533kHz on the clock signals is spot on.

Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Do any of the dip switches or jumpers need to be configured to a certain game? I don't know what this board came out of, I'm just trying to fix it.

DIP switches are irreverent for the power on self test.
Jumpers must be configured for the type of ROMs you're using otherwise the CPU can't read/execute valid code on startup.
U6 looks like it's a "E-720-52" under the label. If so this is a 9332 PROM chip and the board has it jumpered correctly for U6.

Since you have an oscilloscope, probe each pin on U6 during power up. All pins except 12 and 24 should show some pulsing activity (swinging between 0 and 5 volts).

#16 5 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Square wave with a frequency of 533kHz on the clock signals is spot on.

DIP switches are irreverent for the power on self test.
Jumpers must be configured for the type of ROMs you're using otherwise the CPU can't read/execute valid code on startup.
U6 looks like it's a "E-720-52" under the label. If so this is a 9332 PROM chip and the board has it jumpered correctly for U6.
Since you have an oscilloscope, probe each pin on U6 during power up. All pins except 12 and 24 should show some pulsing activity (swinging between 0 and 5 volts).

I probed all the pins you said. For the most part they seem to range between 0 and 5V some got up to 6V. Some had some noise. I removed U6 to look at it and then by mistake put it in the U7 socket and turned that power on. I shut the power off as soon as I noticed it. Did I screw it up? Here are some of the signals.

IMG_2305 (resized).JPGIMG_2308 (resized).JPGIMG_2309 (resized).JPGIMG_2312 (resized).jpgPIN 10 (resized).JPG
#17 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I removed U6 to look at it and then by mistake put it in the U7 socket and turned that power on. I shut the power off as soon as I noticed it. Did I screw it up?

Probably not damaged, but you now have another unknown.

At the U11 PIA check the following pins:
1 must have 0 volts (ground)
20 must have 5 volts (power)
21 through 33 all have some activity
34 should go from logic low to logic high on power up (reset line being released)
35 and 36 have some activity
39 should ideally go logic low to switch off the LED and to logic high to switch the LED on during the flash process

Note some of these signals will only briefly see activity before the board stalls/crashes. You may have to hardware reset the board to see activity on them to verify something is happening.

If U11 things seem ok, then try this:
Connect the middle leg of transistor Q1 to ground. Power up. This will force the board to stay in hardware reset mode. The CPU should output address $FFFE on the address bus, i.e. address line A0 should be logic low (0 volts) and all other address lines should be logic high (5 volts). Measure them at the U6 ROM using the schematics for U6 pin as reference.

#18 5 months ago

Is a hardware reset done by the push button switch S33?

#19 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Is a hardware reset done by the push button switch S33?

No. That triggers an NMI to the mpu.

#20 5 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

No. That triggers an NMI to the mpu.

How do I do a hardware reset?

#21 5 months ago

You duplicate what the reset circuit does by shorting mpu pins 39/40, then releasing (I use a screwdriver for this).

Other wise you turn the game off and on. There's no button on stock mpu board to reset it.

#22 5 months ago
Quoted from slochar:

You duplicate what the reset circuit does by shorting mpu pins 39/40, then releasing (I use a screwdriver for this).

We all do it this way because it's convenient. But it's a little harsh on the Q5 transistor because it puts 5 volts across its collector-emitter pins that are conducting which could potentially damage it.
The elegant way is to ground the base (middle) leg of transistor Q1 which switches the transistors off. Yes I know we're all too lazy (sometimes myself included) to do it this way

#23 5 months ago

I checked the pins on U11
Pin 1 = 0V
Pin 20 = 5.44V
Pins 21 was a flat line 4.5 V with small squiggles at even intervals
Pins 22 - 24 had nice signals
Pins 25 – 29 showed voltage ≈ 5V, but were ugly.
Pin 34 went up to 5.6V
Pins 35 -36 had good signals
Pin 39 jumped to 1V then up to 5V

I grounded the base of Q1. Here are the voltages on U6

A0 was low All other pins were high except,

GND, D4 – D7, CS were low. A9 and A10 were 4.4V
Thanks

#24 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I checked the pins on U11

Pin 39 jumped to 1V then up to 5V

So on power-up pin 39 started at 1 volt then went up to 5 volts? roughly how much time are we talking?

Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Here are the voltages on U6
A9 and A10 were 4.4V

Without grounding the base of Q1, are you seeing the same active waveforms on A9 and A10? Are they possibly shorted together?

Have you got an EPROM programmer to check if your U6 is reading properly?

With only U9 installed (all other socketed chips removed), the CPU should be free running through every address. With your scope you should see mostly square wave activity on all the address lines. A14 being twice as fast as A15, A13 twice as fast as A14, etc, to A0 being twice as fast as A1. Are you vaguely seeing this?

#25 5 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

So on power-up pin 39 started at 1 volt then went up to 5 volts? roughly how much time are we talking?

Without grounding the base of Q1, are you seeing the same active waveforms on A9 and A10? Are they possibly shorted together?
Have you got an EPROM programmer to check if your U6 is reading properly?
With only U9 installed (all other socketed chips removed), the CPU should be free running through every address. With your scope you should see mostly square wave activity on all the address lines. A14 being twice as fast as A15, A13 twice as fast as A14, etc, to A0 being twice as fast as A1. Are you vaguely seeing this?

Pin 39 at power up, no voltage .5 seconds later up to 1.2V then .5 sec up to 4.4V
Different activity on A9 and A10. A9 was a very noisy saw tooth signal with a Vp-p of 671mV and freq. of 563Hz. A10 was a square wave Vp-p of 5.44V and freq. of 16.7 KHz
No continuity between pins A9 and A10. I’m getting ready to check U6 in a programmer.

#26 5 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Pin 39 at power up, no voltage .5 seconds later up to 1.2V then .5 sec up to 4.4V

The moment you power on, pin 39 of the PIA defaults on reset to being 'open circuit'. i.e. it has no effect on the circuit it's connected to.
This leaves the two resistors at R107 and R28 to switch the Q2 transistor on resulting in the LED illuminating.
After approx 10ms when the board comes out of reset, the first thing the code in U6 does is to configure U11 pin 39 as an output and pulls it low which results in the LED switching off. This 10ms is the initial LED flicker time you normally see on power up.

The R107 and R28 resistor network should result in pin 39 reading about 3.7 volts the moment you power on. If you're getting no voltage have you checked that the Q2 transistor is good? Maybe it's shorted resulting in the LED being stuck on.

Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I’m getting ready to check U6 in a programmer.

The U6 needs to be read/verified as a 2532 chip.

#27 5 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

The moment you power on, pin 39 of the PIA defaults on reset to being 'open circuit'. i.e. it has no effect on the circuit it's connected to.
This leaves the two resistors at R107 and R28 to switch the Q2 transistor on resulting in the LED illuminating.
After approx 10ms when the board comes out of reset, the first thing the code in U6 does is to configure U11 pin 39 as an output and pulls it low which results in the LED switching off. This 10ms is the initial LED flicker time you normally see on power up.
The R107 and R28 resistor network should result in pin 39 reading about 3.7 volts the moment you power on. If you're getting no voltage have you checked that the Q2 transistor is good? Maybe it's shorted resulting in the LED being stuck on.

The U6 needs to be read/verified as a 2532 chip.

I removed Q2 and tested it with a DMM diode test it passed, I couldn’t find any shorts either. I put a new 2N3904 transistor in. Still haven’t had time to check U6 in the programmer. Maybe this afternoon.

#28 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Have you got an EPROM programmer to check if your U6 is reading properly

I believe the U6 chip manufacture is General Instruments. The programmer I used does not have the General Instruments configuration on it, but I could read it with the NEC configuration but it could not verify.

#29 4 months ago

First off, let me applaud my fellow Marylander, Enochsmoken, for putting all this effort into trying to repair this board and being able to use an oscilloscope.
But if you are successful in repairing this dinosaur, that's just what you'll have: repaired 1976 technology.

Please keep in mind, a Weebly MPU is $167 shipped, 2021 technology. Just a thought.

#30 4 months ago
Quoted from Alan_L:

First off, let me applaud my fellow Marylander, Enochsmoken, for putting all this effort into trying to repair this board and being able to use an oscilloscope.
But if you are successful in repairing this dinosaur, that's just what you'll have: repaired 1976 technology.
Please keep in mind, a Weebly MPU is $167 shipped, 2021 technology. Just a thought.

Valid point. But it's just the age-old question: are you preserving, or upgrading?

People in the automotive and aviation collector/restorer communities (among others...anyone who is collecting historical artifacts) face the same kinds of issues. Do you put a "modern" aircraft engine (i.e. 50's technology instead of 20's technology) into your replica? Do you upgrade the stock components in your classic car, or even change it over to an EV powertrain?

Or do you instead seek to preserve the original technology as closely as possible for historical accuracy?

Every owner has different priorities. $167 is a reasonable cost compared to the time that would be spent repairing the old electronics even if one does the work themselves, never mind the cost to take it to a qualified professional. If all you want is a working pinball machine, that's the right route to take. But if you want to preserve your 30, 40, 50 year old machine, you'll seek to repair the original parts. Or even if one is specifically interested in the repair process, rather than the "unplug and swap" process.

I mean, for that matter...any old EM machine could have 90% of their circuitry replaced by a tiny circuit board that is way more reliable. But we don't see EM collectors swapping out the guts wholesale. Same thing. A big part of the appeal is to own the original electro-mechanical workings.

On the bright side, solid-state electronics can last decades without any problem. Other than capacitors wearing out, and damage to other components when something goes wrong (often owner-induced...battery leakage and short-circuits probably accounting for the large majority of cases), there's really very little difference between "2021 technology" and the original board anyway. Once you've re-capped the boards and fixed the blown components, you've got something not much different from a brand new board.

#31 4 months ago

I like fixing things and learning more about electronics.

#32 4 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I believe the U6 chip manufacture is General Instruments. The programmer I used does not have the General Instruments configuration on it, but I could read it with the NEC configuration but it could not verify.

U6 is not an EPROM, it's a ROM that's manufactured with the code mask as part of the silicon die. The specific part (9332) is not supported by any programmer as a programmable chip.
It is however pin compatible to a 2532 EPROM, commonly made at the time by Texas Instruments and Hitachi.

If your programmer doesn't support 2532 EPROMs you'll need to make a 2532 -> 2732 adapter and then read it as a bog standard 2732.
2532 and 2732 EPROMs have the same memory capacity but they have slightly different pinouts.

Note, I don't recommend performing a "verify" function as in certain circumstances it can put high voltage on a pin which this ROM is not designed for.
Simply perform a "read" operation of the chip and data compare/checksum the result against what you download from IPDB.

#33 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

U6 is not an EPROM, it's a ROM that's manufactured with the code mask as part of the silicon die. The specific part (9332) is not supported by any programmer as a programmable chip.
It is however pin compatible to a 2532 EPROM, commonly made at the time by Texas Instruments and Hitachi.
If your programmer doesn't support 2532 EPROMs you'll need to make a 2532 -> 2732 adapter and then read it as a bog standard 2732.
2532 and 2732 EPROMs have the same memory capacity but they have slightly different pinouts.
Note, I don't recommend performing a "verify" function as in certain circumstances it can put high voltage on a pin which this ROM is not designed for.
Simply perform a "read" operation of the chip and data compare/checksum the result against what you download from IPDB.

My programmer does 2532’s only as Texas Instruments. I was able to read it, the check sum was F000h. IPDB says the check sum for U6 Flash Gordon 2732 is 13FC. What’s up with that?

Thanks,
Brad

#34 4 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

I was able to read it, the check sum was F000h

Checksum of F000h means it couldn't read the chip or it's dead. If you click the buffer tab and all the data you see is FFh that will confirm it couldn't be read.
Checksum 13FCh is the correct checksum for that ROM.
I think it's time to replace it with an EPROM that's known to be good. A 2532 is a direct plugin. 2732 are easier/cheaper to get but you have to change configuration jumpers on the MPU board.

#35 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Checksum of F000h means it couldn't read the chip or it's dead. If you click the buffer tab and all the data you see is FFh that will confirm it couldn't be read.
Checksum 13FCh is the correct checksum for that ROM.
I think it's time to replace it with an EPROM that's known to be good. A 2532 is a direct plugin. 2732 are easier/cheaper to get but you have to change configuration jumpers on the MPU board.

Where can I find the right 2732 configuration for the jumpers?

#36 4 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Where can I find the right 2732 configuration for the jumpers?

This is how I always jumper MPU boards for two 2732 EPROMs:

BY-35_After.jpg

1 week later
#37 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Checksum of F000h means it couldn't read the chip or it's dead. If you click the buffer tab and all the data you see is FFh that will confirm it couldn't be read.
Checksum 13FCh is the correct checksum for that ROM.
I think it's time to replace it with an EPROM that's known to be good. A 2532 is a direct plugin. 2732 are easier/cheaper to get but you have to change configuration jumpers on the MPU board.

Should I get a new U2 chip also?

#38 4 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Should I get a new U2 chip also?

Personally I would, yes.
The first call is to have a functioning U6 in order to get the flicker on power-up. The flicker indicates the CPU has seen U6 and begun the boot process. While the LED stays locked on, U2 isn't in the equation yet.

#39 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Personally I would, yes.
The first call is to have a functioning U6 in order to get the flicker on power-up. The flicker indicates the CPU has seen U6 and begun to boot process. While the LED stays locked on, U2 isn't in the equation yet.

Would you recommend a source to buy these chips?
Thanks

#40 4 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Would you recommend a source to buy these chips?

My last purchase was from AliExpress two years ago but you might not want to wait for the slow shipping.
Have a look on ebay to see what's available locally.

You also have the option to buy pre-programmed Flash Gordon EPROMs
These are 2732
ebay.com link: itm
These are 2532 (same pinout as the factory 9332 chip you have)
ebay.com link: itm

#41 4 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

My last purchase was from AliExpress two years ago but you might not want to wait for the slow shipping.
Have a look on ebay to see what's available locally.
You also have the option to buy pre-programmed Flash Gordon EPROMs
These are 2732
ebay.com link: itm
These are 2532 (same pinout as the factory 9332 chip you have)
ebay.com link: itm

Great! Thanks Quench. I get them in early December. Have great thanksgiving, see you on the other side.

2 weeks later
#42 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

My last purchase was from AliExpress two years ago but you might not want to wait for the slow shipping.
Have a look on ebay to see what's available locally.
You also have the option to buy pre-programmed Flash Gordon EPROMs
These are 2732
ebay.com link: itm
These are 2532 (same pinout as the factory 9332 chip you have)
ebay.com link: itm

Okay Quench. I have the chips. Do you have any advice before I install them and test?
Thanks

#43 3 months ago

Presuming you got the pre-programmed Flash Gordon 2532 EPROMs, plug them in (the right way around ) and see how you go.

1 week later
#44 3 months ago
Quoted from Quench:

Presuming you got the pre-programmed Flash Gordon 2532 EPROMs, plug them in (the right way around ) and see how you go.

Well, I finally got around to trying this and the LED stayed locked on. I am bummed.

#45 3 months ago
Quoted from Enochsmoken:

Well, I finally got around to trying this and the LED stayed locked on. I am bummed.

Out of curiosity, if you read the newly acquired EPROMs in your programmer do they report the correct checksums?

Please don't give up. This minty looking board deserves to live again.

Are you familiar with how the logic gates at U14, U17, U18 and U19 work? With your scope you can see if the outputs are doing what the inputs are telling them to.

With a bright light behind the board do you have enough space between the sockets and PCB on the top side to see what's going on between pins/traces incase of accidental shorts?

MPU_Sockets 004a.jpg

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