(Topic ID: 175247)

Looking for Ball Count & Advance Unit for Williams Blue Chip


By bdPinball

2 years ago



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  • 39 posts
  • 9 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by zacaj
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

Searching for a Ball Count Unit (and advance if we get that far) for my Williams Blue Chip. It's an Add-a-ball, 76, and it's slightly obscure. Fun game though! Just wish it would give us EXACTLY 3 or 5 balls, not 4, or 7, or sometimes 6!

Thanks in advance..

I'm sure someone will ask, but Yes, we checked with Steve Young, and his words were I'm told, "Good Luck with that one."

-Brian

#2 2 years ago

I have a Blue Chip- let me know if you need photos or anything-- unfortunately, I don't have the parts you need.

#3 2 years ago

Why do you feel you need to replace it? Short of massive burn marks I've never seen a stepper that needed outright replacement...

#4 2 years ago
Quoted from bdPinball:

Searching for a Ball Count Unit (and advance if we get that far) for my Williams Blue Chip. It's an Add-a-ball, 76, and it's slightly obscure. Fun game though! Just wish it would give us EXACTLY 3 or 5 balls, not 4, or 7, or sometimes 6!
Thanks in advance..
I'm sure someone will ask, but Yes, we checked with Steve Young, and his words were I'm told, "Good Luck with that one."
-Brian

I don't know. I don't think you need replacement. Misaligned steppers maybe. I've worked on dozens of EMs and never once had to replace a component. Desolder the units, move them to the bench and disassemble them. Those shafts need to be cleaned up and moving freely. All the contacts need to be swiped with q-tips dipped in alcohol. All pieces of the unit should move freely "dry." No grease or lubrication.

PS: I only clicked on this because I love Blue Chip. I'm always keeping my eyes out for one. Good luck.

#5 2 years ago

To be honest, I am not the one doing the repair. Harold told me that the stepper unit had been hacked on by previous people, and apparently been filed in such a way that it can't be repaired. Yeah, I too would like to look at it and give my two cents, however this guy has been doing this for 30 years, and if he says it can't be fixed, I"m inclined to believe him.

But as far as actually FINDING one of these, it's going to be slim pickins huh? I mean, even if it did give random balls, it's not like it's going out on route or something. And, it almost adds to the randomness of the game! Um, no. If possible I'd like that to work.

He told me tried to make whatever the piece was that the people had over-filed on but whatever it was, I guess that didn't work either. I'll see if I can't get pictures of it.

Is there anyone ELSE besides Steve Young/PBR that might have some crazy part like this? I mean, people are CONSTANTLY ripping apart games and selling the guts on Ebay becuase they're awful terrible scum of the earth- wait, I'm sure they know not what they do to the soul of the collecting community- But I digress.. I guess I'm still pissed about that Contact in pieces. Grrrr..

Well, once the thing is "fixed", eventually I'll want to sell the thing. What is a good price for this one? Even though it's not a popular title like say Captain Fantastic, or Fireball or something, but as a few people have pointed out the game is a fun play! Lighting all the lights, especially those hidden ones at the top, is fun! It's stuff like that that made those games different, and maybe slightly more difficult to play. I was playing my Flash last night and noted how hard it is to get all the lanes lit since they hadn't invented lane switch back then. What I'm saying though is sometimes they'd make shots more difficult, or even almost impossible!

I hope I can find that Ball Unit, or at least the part he needs.

-Brian

-Brian

#6 2 years ago

If you need anything for reference, I've also got a Blue Chip in the fix up queue I can get some pictures of. Is the ball unit really that different from the one on other games?

#7 2 years ago

I would think that other Williams games of that era would have the similar components that would work in your game.
Had my very nice "Blue Chip" for sale for quite a while until it sold at the last York show.

#8 2 years ago

This is similar to the advance unit in Blue Chip, right?

ebay.com link » Williams Pinball Em Player Unit 1973 Oxo

#9 2 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

This is similar to the advance unit in Blue Chip, right?
ebay.com link » Williams Pinball Em Player Unit 1973 Oxo

That's a player unit and an older version as well. Although it is a stepper, it probably only has four positions; one for each possible number of players.
I don't think it would work for his application.

#10 2 years ago

I have a Williams parts backbox but I'm not sure what game it's from. Can you post a photo of the part you need? Looks like Pinwiki doesn't have a picture of a Williams ball count unit.

The parts backbox I have looks like a four player with four scoring reels. I've attached pictures. If what I have will help you please send me a PM.

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#11 2 years ago

I have a Honey I could use for parts-

I looked at his picture and the advance unit looks like the same unit that is in 50 places with different configurations.

The advance unit however is a different story.

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#12 2 years ago

A multiplayer game doesn't have a ball count unit, they 90% of the time have player units, and 4-player games have player units 100% of the time, just like the games mentioned above. (Honey and OXO) They will not work. For the advance unit, more likely it will work from one of those games. (Read below though!)

That little thing is the match/0-9 unit, not a bonus/advance unit.

You need a SINGLE PLAYER ball count unit, and also one that does step up and step down instead of just step down and full reset due to the nature of this game when in add-a-ball setting. (This game can be set for replay play, add-a-ball play, or novelty play - a feature unique to Williams EMs)

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Otaku:

A multiplayer game doesn't have a ball count unit, they 90% of the time have player units, and 4-player games have player units 100% of the time, just like the games mentioned above. (Honey and OXO) They will not work. For the advance unit, more likely it will work from one of those games. (Read below though!)

Many Williams four player EMs have both a player unit and a ball count unit? My Super Straight + Aztec has a 4 step player unit and a 5 step ball count unit. My 2P Black Jack has a 5 step ball count and a relay for player 1/2. I've never worked on any non-gottlieb game that only had a player unit for both.

Specifically though, the OP needs an *add a ball* ball count unit, which is quite possibly completely different from a 4P ball count unit

#14 2 years ago

Huh, really? Most of my experience is inside of my Gottlieb games (like a ton, oddly enough), but I've never noticed "double units" on my multiplayer Williams games either. It is entirely possible I missed them as I haven't been inside of them nearly as much (again, oddly, but I'm not complaining!) but I don't understand why they would use both.

Are you sure? Interesting.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Otaku:

Huh, really? Most of my experience is inside of my Gottlieb games (like a ton, oddly enough), but I've never noticed "double units" on my multiplayer Williams games either. It is entirely possible I missed them as I haven't been inside of them nearly as much (again, oddly, but I'm not complaining!) but I don't understand why they would use both.
Are you sure? Interesting.

My experience with Williams EMs is limited to '72+, but every one I've worked with has a player unit whose reset coil is tied to the ball count unit step up EOS switch through the player reset relay

Quoted from Otaku:

(like a ton, oddly enough)

Pshaw, how could that be?

Quoted from Otaku:

(again, oddly, but I'm not complaining!)

Williams/Bally > Gottlieb

Quoted from Otaku:

I've never noticed "double units" on my multiplayer Williams games

Usually on mine the ball count unit has been in the bottom (iirc) and the player unit is in the head. Take a look in your space mission or strato-flite

#16 2 years ago

"Blue Chip" would require a 10 step ball count unit. As Otaku said, the small unit is the match unit. If that's what you need for your game, then use it. It has an additional switch on it that operates the "change relay" (called "alternating relay" on Gottliebs).

#17 2 years ago

I am at a bit of a disadvantage since I don't actually have this game in front of me. My guy Harold has been working on it, and sent me the picture of what he said it needs. I'm not sure his lingo is going to be same as what you guys are calling things either. I know he can fix them, and really is the only one I know within- Well, that can fix them at all.

He was telling me that the Alternator (switcher, or whatever y want to call it) was also the same unit that controlled the Matching. He said something was missing though, and for some reason he wanted to set it to match on 60. I'm not sure exactly WHAT he was talking about, but I'll know more when I see the game.

I'm supposed to go get it, maybe tomorrow, Possibly this weekend. Once I get it in my hands I'll be able to answer - or ask the correct questions.

-Brian

#18 2 years ago

The alternator relay is controlled by the match unit, which is the small stepper pictured above. It's supposed to step 00-90 when slingshots, etc are hit, and whether it's 0/2/4/etc or 1/3/5/etc controls the alternator relay. If for some reason the match unit won't step, it would make sense to have it stuck on some specific number like 60.

Doesn't have anything to do with the ball count though...

#19 2 years ago
Quoted from bdPinball:

He was telling me that the Alternator (switcher, or whatever y want to call it) was also the same unit that controlled the Matching. He said something was missing though, and for some reason he wanted to set it to match on 60. I'm not sure exactly WHAT he was talking about, but I'll know more when I see the game.
I'm supposed to go get it, maybe tomorrow, Possibly this weekend. Once I get it in my hands I'll be able to answer - or ask the correct questions.
-Brian

I have to be honest-- it doesn't sound like your guy really knows what he's talking about.

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

I have to be honest-- it doesn't sound like your guy really knows what he's talking about.

Either that or something's getting lost in translation

#21 2 years ago

My friend Vic Camp (fellow pinsider) bought a very nice "Blue Chip" a couple of years ago. It was missing the match unit however. He got one from a guy who cannibalizes wrecked games for parts. IMHO, he paid up for it, but it made his game work as it should. Not so much for the match feature, but for the control of the "change relay". This unit changes the value of specific targets, rollovers, etc. and so it has an important function for correct gameplay. For example, on "Blue Chip", the change relay switches the lit bumper between the left and right one, and changes the outlane "special" between the left and right outlanes. Without the switch on the match unit, the lighted bumper would always be the same one, and the lighted "special" on the outlanes would always be the same too.
Freezing the match number on "60" really doesn't help and it surely won't restore the proper function of the change relay.

#22 2 years ago

Based on all your postings here, you likely need the match unit (which you say you can get from your "Honey" machine), and perhaps the ball count unit is just gummed up, misadjusted, or may be missing a spring or two. Not anything that a reasonably decent EM pinball tech shouldn't be able to handle easily.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

My friend Vic Camp (fellow pinsider) bought a very nice "Blue Chip" a couple of years ago. It was missing the match unit however. He got one from a guy who cannibalizes wrecked games for parts. IMHO, he paid up for it, but it made his game work as it should. Not so much for the match feature, but for the control of the "change relay". This unit changes the value of specific targets, rollovers, etc. and so it has an important function for correct gameplay. For example, on "Blue Chip", the change relay switches the lit bumper between the left and right one, and changes the outlane "special" between the left and right outlanes. Without the switch on the match unit, the lighted bumper would always be the same one, and the lighted "special" on the outlanes would always be the same too.
Freezing the match number on "60" really doesn't help and it surely won't restore the proper function of the change relay.

I can't remember on mine, but maybe the change relay changes the value of the bumpers from 10 to 100, not switching them left and right.
In either case, it's important for correct game play.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Based on all your postings here, you likely need the match unit (which you say you can get from your "Honey" machine), and perhaps the ball count unit is just gummed up, misadjusted, or may be missing a spring or two. Not anything that a reasonably decent EM pinball tech shouldn't be able to handle easily.

Depends on where that 'over filed' part is. If it's on the match unit, he's good, if it's on the ball count, he's still in trouble

#25 2 years ago

I'm supposed to get the game back in a few days. I'm sure it's more of a translation thing, because if he doesn't know what he's doing mechanically he must be some sort of magician, because I've given him two other dead games that he brought back to life and are out in some kid's basement right now. The Amigo, and um.. the other title escapes me presently.. but he has some talent at fixing this type of thing. I guess he worked at the phone company in the 70s.

Anyway, no sense in guessing any more about it. I'll have him show me the part, take pics of it, and then you guys can tell us what the real names of the parts and springs and levers are or whatnot.

Thanks guys, I'll
Post pics when I get it back.

#26 2 years ago

On those little match/alternating relay units, the actuating tab always breaks off, rendering the unit inoperable. Someone needs to repro the part and improve it somehow. Williams addressed the issue by switching to solid state!

#27 2 years ago
Quoted from frobozz:

On those little match/alternating relay units, the actuating tab always breaks off, rendering the unit inoperable. Someone needs to repro the part and improve it somehow. Williams addressed the issue by switching to solid state!

I wonder if the little tab is the problem he's having. I know he said he tried to manufacture one part or another, but he said that his repro wasn't "tight" enough to work properly.

Regarding SS... Yes.. And then introduced that damned interconnect problem. Along with those $#$%&^ molex plugs!! Hahaha.. But, they were on their way.. When SSR got there, things REALLY took off!

-B

1 week later
#28 2 years ago

Okay, I got the Blue Chip back. he's got it working pretty good. however:

1) The alternator unit doesn't work at all. It needs to be replaced. it's the small one, with just one single small coil that triggers the wheel to go around.

2) The problem that it has involves the ball count unit. apparently the wheel itself had been ground upon by a previous owner, and the teeth don't catch properly. In addition to this, one of the two latches, that catch the teeth, apparently was filed also, so badly he made one himself and threw the other one away. He tells me that if we DID replace the latch, without replacing the wheel as well, that it'd have the same problem. As it is, the game gives a random number of balls. Usually between 4-6, but sometimes 10!

This ball count unit is count up / count down unit - and it's one of the "dueling" floating catches.

I remember the first time I ever examine the mech being impressed for how the unit sort of glides back and forth depending if it's counting up or down. Anyway, that looks like the standard counting unit like in all the other count units, although this up-down is a little special. Seems to me that honey must have two of those types. I've pulled the old head for the Honey out to compare, and I have the Blue chip here to look at as well, however putting this BC in with the rest of my games has removed all the room to move around to fix anything!

I'm worried that spending much more time and effort making this game work perfectly will make it "upside down."

How much could a Blue Chip in good shape bring? 1200?

I would gather many people who play it wouldn't notice the alternator not working, and the ball problem, that might not be a problem for some people either. How do you decide when to stop making something "correct?" People who work on used cars, go ONLY as far as absolutely necessary to make the thing roll. I'd say the game rolls, and it's pretty much a fun game to play, however a collector is not going to be happy about these issues. Thoughts?

-Brian

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from bdPinball:

Okay, I got the Blue Chip back. he's got it working pretty good. however:
1) The alternator unit doesn't work at all. It needs to be replaced. it's the small one, with just one single small coil that triggers the wheel to go around.
2) The problem that it has involves the ball count unit. apparently the wheel itself had been ground upon by a previous owner, and the teeth don't catch properly. In addition to this, one of the two latches, that catch the teeth, apparently was filed also, so badly he made one himself and threw the other one away. He tells me that if we DID replace the latch, without replacing the wheel as well, that it'd have the same problem. As it is, the game gives a random number of balls. Usually between 4-6, but sometimes 10!
This ball count unit is count up / count down unit - and it's one of the "dueling" floating catches.
I remember the first time I ever examine the mech being impressed for how the unit sort of glides back and forth depending if it's counting up or down. Anyway, that looks like the standard counting unit like in all the other count units, although this up-down is a little special. Seems to me that honey must have two of those types. I've pulled the old head for the Honey out to compare, and I have the Blue chip here to look at as well, however putting this BC in with the rest of my games has removed all the room to move around to fix anything!
I'm worried that spending much more time and effort making this game work perfectly will make it "upside down."
How much could a Blue Chip in good shape bring? 1200?
I would gather many people who play it wouldn't notice the alternator not working, and the ball problem, that might not be a problem for some people either. How do you decide when to stop making something "correct?" People who work on used cars, go ONLY as far as absolutely necessary to make the thing roll. I'd say the game rolls, and it's pretty much a fun game to play, however a collector is not going to be happy about these issues. Thoughts?
-Brian

The match unit shouldn't be hard to find. Alternately, you could just find the alternator relay and bridge all the make/break switches together so that both pops and special are always on. Would be much nicer than just one side being lit. Either way though, there's no way you're getting 1200 for a Blue Chip with any problems (or at all, but)

#31 2 years ago

I never thought of having BOTH alternator sides lit at once!

#32 2 years ago
Quoted from bdPinball:

How much could a Blue Chip in good shape bring? 1200?

An absolutely pristine collector quality machine wouldn't bring that much.

In any working order, I'd say it's a $350 machine-- adjust upwards for condition.

#33 2 years ago
Quoted from drsfmd:

An absolutely pristine collector quality machine wouldn't bring that much.
In any working order, I'd say it's a $350 machine-- adjust upwards for condition.

Maybe 12 hundred is wishful thinking, but geez.. sort of like any car that will roll is worth $500, I sort of feel like $350 is pretty bottom of the barrel- I mean, if the game plays, and is any fun at ALL, I should think the game would be worth five bills anyway, and since I have a slight affection for the game, If it doesn't fetch 8 bills or so I think I'll keep it. It's a fun little play!

I was rolling the game for a second time and though, "Why didn't they have an Over the TOp?" or even better- A MIllionaires club!

I found a swtich in the Honey that has the 9's switch in ithe stack, and grafted it onto the 100,000 switch on the blue Chip. I played the blue chip to confirm I hadn't put it bback together incorrectly. Nope, it's fine.

The way that switch works, the "Millionaire" light would need to come on when the 9s switch releases after it makes. And I will also need something triggered by a new game telling it to reset the Millionaire light.

I found a couple of circuits that would be able to accomplish this. I thought about doing it with an arduino, but I tseems like a shame to waste a whole computer on a little flip-flop circuit that could be written up with 3 capacitros, 2 resisters, and 2 transistors.

Anyone have any ideas?

-Brian

#34 2 years ago

You really just need a relay that latches itself off a pulse from the switch and whose power comes from a relay that opens on game start. That's how the regular over the top / 100k lights work

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from zacaj:

You really just need a relay that latches itself off a pulse from the switch and whose power comes from a relay that opens on game start. That's how the regular over the top / 100k lights work

Well.. My Parts Honey must have 5 of that type of relay on it.. Would doing it with a relay be that easy? I thought doing it electronically would be easier, but I suppose doing it with a relay would preserve the authenticity of the game..

-Brian

#36 2 years ago

One end of the coil through a switch (that opens on game over) on the game over relay(or maybe some other relay, the switch might have to be added if there aren't any matching) that then connects immediately to the main line, the other side goes to two places: the new switch on the reel, and to a NO switch on the new relay. Other side of both switches goes to the (other) main line. When the reel switch closes, it'll close the relay temporarily, and the NO switch on the relay will then also close, which will continue to provide power to the relay after the reel switch opens. Since both switches go to the game over switch, when the game ends the relay will lose power. Put a second switch on the new relay that controls your light.

#37 2 years ago

Yeah, but how are you going to incorporate it into the backglass?

#38 2 years ago
Quoted from jrpinball:

Yeah, but how are you going to incorporate it into the backglass?

Sorry,, I was going to have it lite up some sort of a "Millionaire!" topper or something. Nothing too elaborate, but It seemes like the game is pretty easy to roll, so to keep track of it is reasonable.

-Brian

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from bdPinball:

Sorry,, I was going to have it lite up some sort of a "Millionaire!" topper or something. Nothing too elaborate, but It seemes like the game is pretty easy to roll, so to keep track of it is reasonable.
-Brian

What settings do you have it on? I'm lucky to break 400k on mine

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